"Any traffic in the area please advise..."

BellyUpFish

BellyUpFish

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Backtothesand
... was heard today during the opening of a tower..

Radio nazi's unite!!
 
I guess this might be the *only* circumstance under which I'd say, "That's OK."
 
I don't have a dog in the fight. The phrase doesn't set me on pins and needles like it appears to irk most internet aviation savants.

This is an honest question, not a flame.

If it is "ok" for a tower to ask for traffic to advise (I assume it's ok due to attempting to prevent a plane from landing without a clearance, etc.) what is the harm in a guy asking for the same when he arrives near an airport?

Seems most of the guys who abhor the phrase give it grief due to it being "grammatically incorrect." You want advice? Don't bet on a 3 legged horse!

I don't have a dog in the race. I don't use the phrase, but I don't mind when someone does.
 
The class D tower here at Jackson Hole uses that phrase everyday at 7 am when they open... I have NO problem hearing that from them or anyone else.... I always thought it was strange why some people go so postal when it is used... IMHO... YMMV...

Ben.
 
Your question is not unusual, nor is it at all out of line.

I think the short answer would be that the Tower has an affirmative obligation to control all traffic in its airspace, and thus, is required to ask the question upon tower opening in order to get the information it needs to comply with its obligations. I have also noted towers which, upon closing operations for the day, will announce all traffic it is aware of in the airspace and ask for any others to announce their positions before he shuts it down. Example: Fullerton, CA (KFUL).

At non-towered fields, OTOH, the argument is that, if everyone asks "any traffic please advise," then the radio will be clogged with repeated queries and responses every time someone shows up in the pattern or changes to the CTAF from some other frequency. So, one is expected to announce their position in a timely and accurate way, listen for other traffic calls and coordinate as reasonably required to avoid conflict. Since the AIM includes direction not to ask the ATITAPA question, I guess this is the position that carries the day... today.
 
N801BH said:
The class D tower here at Jackson Hole uses that phrase everyday at 7 am when they open... I have NO problem hearing that from them or anyone else.... I always thought it was strange why some people go so postal when it is used... IMHO... YMMV...

Ben.
Click to expand...

I suspect that the reason it bothers folks at uncontrolled fields is that it is a clear indication that an approaching aircraft is not listening like he should be. Making a call for OTHERS to advise YOU because you're too lazy to listen and figure out what the flow is like is both a bit arrogant and rude. Assuming I'm making my standard advisories, I'm certainly not going to make a special one for someone who is asking "any traffic please advise." If I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel the need to talk on the radio, I'm probably not going to respond anyway. If I'm the only guy in the pattern and may not be making standard calls, I'll hear your initial call with your position report and respond. No need to instruct that "any traffic please advise."

In the case of a tower opening, the situation is different. Pilots have an obligation under the regulations to talk to a tower while operating in that tower's controlled airspace. When the tower opens, it does have authority to ask that traffic within its airspace respond and identify themselves.



JKG
 
It's the pilots saying it, not the phrase... it's not some bizarre mental quirk, like the guy who supposedly flew into a homicidal rage whenever he heard the word "snickers". :D
To me it's a red flag that indicates that they either aren't really listening, or more importantly, they aren't really looking. There may be some terrific pilots, highly adept at flying in the pattern safely, who use that phrase, but when I hear it, I have to assume that they are not, and might do anything, having uttered what to them are magic words.

Having taken a couple whacks at that dead horse, I have to say hearing a tower controller say it makes sense when first coming on duty... in fact, I'll wager that is the original, legitimate use of that phrase, and somewhere along the line pilots started using it.
 
SCCutler said:
At non-towered fields, OTOH, the argument is that, if everyone asks "any traffic please advise," then the radio will be clogged with repeated queries and responses every time someone shows up in the pattern or changes to the CTAF from some other frequency. So, one is expected to announce their position in a timely and accurate way, listen for other traffic calls and coordinate as reasonably required to avoid conflict.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Radio talk should be witty. Of course brevity is the soul of wit.
 
JGoodish said:
I suspect that the reason it bothers folks at uncontrolled fields is that it is a clear indication that an approaching aircraft is not listening like he should be. Making a call for OTHERS to advise YOU because you're too lazy to listen and figure out what the flow is like is both a bit arrogant and rude. Assuming I'm making my standard advisories, I'm certainly not going to make a special one for someone who is asking "any traffic please advise." If I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel the need to talk on the radio, I'm probably not going to respond anyway. If I'm the only guy in the pattern and may not be making standard calls, I'll hear your initial call with your position report and respond. No need to instruct that "any traffic please advise."

In the case of a tower opening, the situation is different. Pilots have an obligation under the regulations to talk to a tower while operating in that tower's controlled airspace. When the tower opens, it does have authority to ask that traffic within its airspace respond and identify themselves.



JKG
Click to expand...

So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.:yesnod::yesnod: I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......:idea::).

Ben.
 
The problem with "any traffic in the area please advise" when stated by a pilot at a pilot controlled field is that the better statement when first arriving on the frequency is just "Podunk traffic Cessna 12345 is 8 northwest landing Podunk". If anyone else is in the area, listening to the frequency, they will be prompted to reply with their position just as the "any traffic please advise" question prompts them. But by giving your own position report instead of a useless redundant question you've provided everyone in the area with additional useful information.

Obviously this doesn't apply in the case of a control tower coming on line. "Podunk traffic Podunk Tower is uh 0 miles from the airport, not capable of taking off landing or taxiing, Podunk" :D

That said, the "any traffic please advise" does not frustrate me as much as hearing people say they are "taking the active" at a pilot controlled field. The former is just extra words clogging the frequency. The latter is a hazardous of information.
 
N801BH said:
So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.:yesnod::yesnod: I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......:idea::).

Ben.
Click to expand...

My perspective is, when you announce your approach to the area, if my position is such that we might interact in a metal-bending, soul-snuffing way, I'll announce my position proactively, or if more appropriate, adjust my pattern to accommodate your faster and more glorious aircraft.

If based upon your announcement we have no conflict, then other than routine traffic calls, I need not pipe-up.

For people who grasp how airport traffic works, asking for the traffic advisory is not necessary; for those who do not, asking for it won't help.
 
I figure it evens out about the same. The sliver of silence created by the guy whose airplane is equipped with a radio but refuses to use it in the pattern is simply offset by the guy inquiring about other traffic. No harm, no foul. Play on.

SCCutler said:
Your question is not unusual, nor is it at all out of line.

I think the short answer would be that the Tower has an affirmative obligation to control all traffic in its airspace, and thus, is required to ask the question upon tower opening in order to get the information it needs to comply with its obligations. I have also noted towers which, upon closing operations for the day, will announce all traffic it is aware of in the airspace and ask for any others to announce their positions before he shuts it down. Example: Fullerton, CA (KFUL).

At non-towered fields, OTOH, the argument is that, if everyone asks "any traffic please advise," then the radio will be clogged with repeated queries and responses every time someone shows up in the pattern or changes to the CTAF from some other frequency. So, one is expected to announce their position in a timely and accurate way, listen for other traffic calls and coordinate as reasonably required to avoid conflict. Since the AIM includes direction not to ask the ATITAPA question, I guess this is the position that carries the day... today.
Click to expand...
 
N801BH said:
So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.:yesnod::yesnod: I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......:idea::).
Click to expand...

In this case... you should be tuning the frequency, making sure no one else is transmitting at that moment, and immediately giving your "5 miles out" position report. In the Citation by the time you finish adding on the "any traffic in the pattern please advise" crud then you are probably now four miles out and meanwhile you've blocked the relevant people from responding if there is a potential conflict :(
 
JGoodish said:
I suspect that the reason it bothers folks at uncontrolled fields is that it is a clear indication that an approaching aircraft is not listening like he should be. Making a call for OTHERS to advise YOU because you're too lazy to listen and figure out what the flow is like is both a bit arrogant and rude.
Click to expand...
You're making some major assumptions regarding laziness and arrogance which I view as precaution and added vigilance.
The sleepy little airport that I fly into once in a while has has numerous complacent pilots that think they're the only one's using the field and it does help to remind them that others may be inbound and a position report would be helpful.
They may or may not respond but at least you would have made the effort to increase the safety margin.

On the other hand if it is a semi-active CTAF then there is no reason for the call and you should just listen and advise your intentions.


JGoodish said:
Assuming I'm making my standard advisories, I'm certainly not going to make a special one for someone who is asking "any traffic please advise."
Click to expand...
What if the other pilot didn't hear your call-outs for whatever reason?

JGoodish said:
If I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel the need to talk on the radio, I'm probably not going to respond anyway. If I'm the only guy in the pattern and may not be making standard calls, I'll hear your initial call with your position report and respond. No need to instruct that "any traffic please advise."
Click to expand...
Very dangerous way of looking at it.
Have ever flown into a small airport that had mixed radio chatter from near by fields?
 
As proof of your theory, please put the egg-timer test to the two announcements (the standard announcement that you think is so great, including all the "uhhhs and ers" that are always part of it) and the ATPA that you detest and report your findings as to the time required for each utterance. Since time is so critical, please measure in nano-seconds.

QUOTE=spinfire;811061]In this case... you should be tuning the frequency, making sure no one else is transmitting at that moment, and immediately giving your "5 miles out" position report. In the Citation by the time you finish adding on the "any traffic in the pattern please advise" crud then you are probably now four miles out and meanwhile you've blocked the relevant people from responding if there is a potential conflict :([/QUOTE]
 
spinfire said:
That said, the "any traffic please advise" does not frustrate me as much as hearing people say they are "taking the active" at a pilot controlled field.
Click to expand...

Don't get me started! Here's another one I love..."Cessna XXX holding short for traffic on final". :mad2:
 
wabower said:
I figure it evens out about the same. The sliver of silence created by the guy whose airplane is equipped with a radio but refuses to use it in the pattern is simply offset by the guy inquiring about other traffic. No harm, no foul. Play on.
Click to expand...

I agree... If I have you on TCAS I would LOVE to hear your voice,,, whether you are going to be conflicting traffic or not... IMHO
 
Oh good grief....

:rolleyes2:



Here's how it works:

Silence on 123.050 until:

ME: "Smoketown traffic, Chief 24286, 5 miles south, inbound to land 28, Smoketown"

THEM: (Oh!) "Smoketown traffic, Cessna three fower mike midfield left downwind, Smoketown."

​
I know where he is, he knows where I am. Done.
 
N801BH said:
So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.:yesnod::yesnod: I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......:idea::).

Ben.
Click to expand...

+1..

Something to add, it appears radio calls from 75% of the flying population are horrible. Regardless of the segment of the population they come from.

I see guys regularly unable to distinguish which direction they are coming from, give no distance and no altitude, so then I get to ask. "Hey Scratchy Radio 3456X, say position?"

My favorite recent radio exchange.

Me: "Scratchy radio 4568Y say position."

Them - "we are north of the field entering final runway 35"

Me (thinking) "Um.. north of the field on final for 35? We have no 35 and north would put him on final for 18."

Me - "Roger, we'll hold short 18.." and I held short until they bounced to a stop, having just landed 18..
 
Not always. One of the Cessna 140's based at Bonham, TX flies often, seldom turns on his radio.

dmccormack said:
Oh good grief....

:rolleyes2:



Here's how it works:

Silence on 123.050 until:
ME: "Smoketown traffic, Chief 24286, 5 miles south, inbound to land 28, Smoketown"

THEM: (Oh!) "Smoketown traffic, Cessna three fower mike midfield left downwind, Smoketown."

​
I know where he is, he knows where I am. Done.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
As proof of your theory, please put the egg-timer test to the two announcements (the standard announcement that you think is so great, including all the "uhhhs and ers" that are always part of it) and the ATPA that you detest and report your findings as to the time required for each utterance. Since time is so critical, please measure in nano-seconds.
Click to expand...

The egg timer test confirms that "Podunk traffic 5 northwest landing Podunk" is definitely shorter than "Podunk traffic 5 northwest any traffic in the area please advise Podunk". No nanosecond precision is needed. The former statement takes about 3 seconds where the latter statement takes about 6 seconds - twice as long. Where I fly in the northeast there are a LOT of airports close together and CTAF frequencies are shared amongst enough airports to make the frequencies crowded even when the transmissions are all for different pilot controlled fields.

As I said in my previous post, I don't "detest" (that was your word) ATPA but I don't prefer to use it myself. If "Podunk traffic 5 northwest landing Podunk" adds more uhhhs and errs than the other statement I suggest that there are deeper problems with that pilot's radio work.
 
wabower said:
Not always. One of the Cessna 140's based at Bonham, TX flies often, seldom turns on his radio.
Click to expand...


I've flown NORDO for various reasons and flown with others NORDO (a few are just plan deaf or have non-functioning radios).

Making the proper radio calls doesn't absolve from see and avoid.
 
Neither does anything else. So why do the unicom nazi's make such a big deal of it?

dmccormack said:
I've flown NORDO for various reasons and flown with others NORDO (a few are just plan deaf or have non-functioning radios).

Making the proper radio calls doesn't absolve from see and avoid.
Click to expand...
 
And if "any traffic in the area please advise" fails to elicit a response, try repeating it -- maybe they didn't hear you the first time. If that doesn't work, try "any traffic in the area, I'll buy you lunch if you advise." Then keep increasing the offer until you get the response you want.
:rolleyes:

But in the case of a Tower opening up, it's an appropriate request from the Tower for the reasons stated above. Anybody else, leave it out.
 
JGoodish said:
I suspect that the reason it bothers folks at uncontrolled fields is that it is a clear indication that an approaching aircraft is not listening like he should be. Making a call for OTHERS to advise YOU because you're too lazy to listen and figure out what the flow is like is both a bit arrogant and rude. Assuming I'm making my standard advisories, I'm certainly not going to make a special one for someone who is asking "any traffic please advise." If I'm one of those folks who doesn't feel the need to talk on the radio, I'm probably not going to respond anyway. If I'm the only guy in the pattern and may not be making standard calls, I'll hear your initial call with your position report and respond. No need to instruct that "any traffic please advise."

In the case of a tower opening, the situation is different. Pilots have an obligation under the regulations to talk to a tower while operating in that tower's controlled airspace. When the tower opens, it does have authority to ask that traffic within its airspace respond and identify themselves.



JKG
Click to expand...


+1....
 
wabower said:
Neither does anything else. So why do the unicom nazi's make such a big deal of it?
Click to expand...


ATITPPA doesn't bother me half as much as "We have four pax, they'll be needing ground transport -- also, be sure to have the fuel truck ready. How's Jim doing? Any better..."

And so on....
 
+1. Two Red-river bubbas rehashed their deer hunt and blind placement strategy for a long time recently, until somebody finally reminded them of the discrete freq for such yammerings. Painful.

dmccormack said:
ATITPPA doesn't bother me half as much as "We have four pax, they'll be needing ground transport -- also, be sure to have the fuel truck ready. How's Jim doing? Any better..."

And so on....
Click to expand...
 
My opinion on the best reason to not use it.

if you say...
"Podunk traffic 5 northwest any traffic in the area please advise Podunk" and everybody responded as you requested you might get the response of....


"Cessna," Radio squeal as he gets stepped on
"Cessna 123, 5 southwest inbound"
"Piper 321, 5 NorthEast inbound"
then you screaming "Whoa, where did that guy come from"

Where as if you use.
"Podunk traffic 5 northwest Inbound"
you are more likely to only get.
"Cessna XYZ, also 5 northwest, looking for you"

Which is much more useful.

Brian CFIIG/ASEL
 
LOL.

I started a similar thread in 2009, and it went on for 6 pages:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29610&highlight=atitapa

Let's see if this one beats that one!

Personally, I think this phrase has its place in limited circumstances. Otherwise, your safety relies on everyone else doing everything correctly. Which happens ALL the time.

But, I know that I'm in the minority.
 
wabower said:
+1. Two Red-river bubbas rehashed their deer hunt and blind placement strategy for a long time recently, until somebody finally reminded them of the discrete freq for such yammerings. Painful.
Click to expand...

I'm at an airpark in AZ and the CTAF IS the air to air talk around frequency.
:mad2:
 
nddons said:
Personally, I think this phrase has its place in limited circumstances.
Click to expand...
You are entitled to your own personal opinion as long as you recognize that the FAA doesn't share it, and says "'Traffic in the area, please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition" by pilots.
Ref: AIM 4-1-9g1.
 
I'm curious to know the home field of those who are so strongly against ATITAPA.

Out in West Texas, you would be lucky at have a half dozen people on the CTAF frequency covering an area the size of New England. I'll note that at my home field on a clear day, I can hear CTAF from Clovis to Stephenville(almost 300 nm). Despite that, the frequency is almost never congested (or even close to it). ATC keeps people on flight following until about 10 miles out.

It would seem to me, that asking about traffic would have a insignificant increase in radio traffic and greatly increase safety. Why not do it?

PS: I do understand why it has no place in an area were the radio traffic is normally congested.
 
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Ron Levy said:
You are entitled to your own personal opinion as long as you recognize that the FAA doesn't share it, and says "'Traffic in the area, please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition" by pilots.
Ref: AIM 4-1-9g1.
Click to expand...

No offense intended, but there is not a single one of us who pushes the PTT that uses 100% correct FAA phraseology.
 
BellyUpFish said:
No offense intended, but there is not a single one of us who pushes the PTT that uses 100% correct FAA phraseology.
Click to expand...
And you have sampled every single pilot to make that determination? Didn't think so. There are pilots out there who are very precise. Others of us can be, but on occasion have a little fun...

Ryan
 
RoscoeT said:
Don't get me started! Here's another one I love..."Cessna XXX holding short for traffic on final". :mad2:
Click to expand...

Whats wrong with that?

I have seen far too many people just runup and drive onto the runway with a plane on short final. By saying your going to hold it lets short final traffic know that your not going to test his go-around and collision avoidence skills.
 
n20junkie said:
Whats wrong with that?

I have seen far too many people just runup and drive onto the runway with a plane on short final. By saying your going to hold it lets short final traffic know that your not going to test his go-around and collision avoidence skills.
Click to expand...

X2..

Ben
 
I understand the reasons not to use it and i don't,

but I don't really care when someone does. I took a 4000hr pro jet pilot with me on a trip recently and he offered to handle the radios. He called up the home drome frequency when we were approaching and said... it.
 
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