I personally do not use ATITAPA (whew, a long acronym!) but do not have a problem with those who do. But, I do regularly tell traffic I am departing Runway XX, left (or right) turn-out and my planned direction after that so incoming traffic knows what I plan to do (if they are listening). I also use Cessna XXX holding at Runway XX for traffic on final to let the incoming know I see her and do not plan to pull out in front of her. I cannot for the life of me understand why anybody here would have a problem with doing those things.
"Any traffic in the area please advise..."
- Thread starter BellyUpFish
- Start date
BellyUpFish
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2011
- Messages
- 1,157
- Display Name
Display name:
Backtothesand
I don't need a sample, I only need to know we are ALL human.
I never said we could be precise or give our best efforts.
Precise or not, what i said was none of us are 100% per the FAA or any other organization and to think you are is an exercise of personal delusion.
Last edited:
COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
I prefer ATITAPBA, as in any traffic in the area please be advised.
Example:
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 10.1 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 10.0 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 9.9 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 9.8 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
etc. etc. etc
Its like my own personal ADSB-out. It obviates the need for ATITAPA since no one else can get a word in edgewise. Everyone else will know exactly where I am so they can avoid me.
Example:
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 10.1 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 10.0 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 9.9 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
Any traffic in the area please be advised 87W 9.8 miles southeast of Centennial 7500.
etc. etc. etc
Its like my own personal ADSB-out. It obviates the need for ATITAPA since no one else can get a word in edgewise. Everyone else will know exactly where I am so they can avoid me.
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
Hey tract, where are you? We have the same distances here too... Monahans, ft Stockton pecos, marfa, alpine, Andrews, and some other place I can't remember all having reports one day. All about 150 miles away from each other.
When I hear a big airplane coming in and asking regarding traffic I understand their concern and just tell them where we are and we'll extend downwind or make a short approach or whatever. I'm glad when it happens, it's good for the students. Usually our only traffic is buzzards and the UPS guy at 10:00am
When I hear a big airplane coming in and asking regarding traffic I understand their concern and just tell them where we are and we'll extend downwind or make a short approach or whatever. I'm glad when it happens, it's good for the students. Usually our only traffic is buzzards and the UPS guy at 10:00am
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
...therefore any breach of any rule or guideline is always excusable since "everybody does it" and "nobody's perfect."
BellyUpFish
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2011
- Messages
- 1,157
- Display Name
Display name:
Backtothesand
I'm not saying its an excuse.
I'm saying none of us are perfect.
Rather than put words into my mouth, why not focus on the words I actually used.
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
"be advised" is also dumb, whether spoken by cops, soldiers, or rotorheads.
BellyUpFish
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2011
- Messages
- 1,157
- Display Name
Display name:
Backtothesand
Nevermind..
Last edited:
JimNtexas
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2006
- Messages
- 2,259
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Display Name
Display name:
Jim - In Texas!
+1
I've never understood why there are so few unicom frequencies, but that's just the way it is, now and forever, amen.
I supposed the tower controller could come on shift and say 'Podunk Tower, hovering at 150 feet over the airport', but for him ATPA seems fine.
On the other hand there is so much garbage on the typical shared unicom frequency that those unnecessary words just add to the confusion.
Sorry about the thread drift, but if a plane pulls up to the hold short line and spends several minutes doing their pre-takeoff stuff, you're saying that everybody flying short final during this time needs constant confirmation that the pilot at the hold short line is not about to go blasting onto the runway? Saying "holding short for traffic" is just as much a waste of air time as the runup pilot saying to each person on final, "not ready to go yet, traffic on short final". I've never heard anybody say that, and by your logic, the latter would be just as necessary as the "holding short" call. The pilot on final has no idea if the pilot on the ground is ready to go and holding short, or has just pulled up to do their checklist stuff.
Most hold short lines are a good 250' or so from the runway centerline. I don't know many pilots on final who are so oblivious to the runway in front of them that they could not avoid a plane starting its taxi to the runway from 250' away. Any plane could easily go around to miss the idiot who is pulling onto the runway. I've had people start to pull out when I'm less than 500' from the runway on final, but I've never seen a safety issue or near collision occur because of this. Never even heard of one, not that I'm saying it's never happened.
The only time I'd condone saying "holding short" is after you've made your departure call, and then noticed traffic on final (because you were too careless to look before making your departure call). Then it would be a good heads up to the pilot on final.
Last edited:
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
None taken.
Using nonstandard phraseology the FAA doesn't recommend is one thing. Using phraseology the FAA specifically and explicitly says "should not be used under any condition" is quite another.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Not "forever" -- it's getting better. The FAA is introducing more 25 kHz CTAF's like 123.025 around the country now that 360-channel comm radios are all but disappeared from the fleet.
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Here we go again, eh! 
+1000
+1000 with the correction that it's not "a clear indication" but rather "it would seem to indicate"
What, Citations don't have a second radio? When I'm IFR into a small field and still talking to ATC, I tune #2 to the CTAF at 15 miles out and and make my first position report at 10 miles out just like I do if I'm arriving VFR.
And in that case an ATITAPA call ain't gonna do much good anyway.
But, if you insist on using ATITAPA then please, please make sure you follow it up with a call to the FBO asking for an airport advisory (even though the airport has a perfectly functioning ASOS). That call would also seem to indicate that the pilot is lazy and/or not listening. But, only after you've made those two calls can you tell the FBO that
And, considering how much discussion this has generated on ALL the boards, and that it is addressed in the AIM, my first impression when I hear an ATITAPA call is typically "he's an idiot" especially if he stammers through the call. But I resist the urge to respond "I advise you read the AIM"...
...well, most of the time
+1000
+1000 with the correction that it's not "a clear indication" but rather "it would seem to indicate"
So..... I am coming into a uncontrolled field in the middle of Kansas for some fuel in a Citation.... Center releases me to the local freq when I am 5 miles out and you are down there working the pattern NOT making radio calls thinking you are the only one in the area.... I am on the ground before you can turn your base leg.I hope..... unless we meet when you turn base to final and are not looking for me.... If we all flew 60 mph planes the no atitapa concept might be ok...... Like it or not if I tune the local freq and not hear any action in 15 seconds or so I am announcing my request for others to pipe up along with my position report......
What, Citations don't have a second radio? When I'm IFR into a small field and still talking to ATC, I tune #2 to the CTAF at 15 miles out and and make my first position report at 10 miles out just like I do if I'm arriving VFR.
And in that case an ATITAPA call ain't gonna do much good anyway.
But, if you insist on using ATITAPA then please, please make sure you follow it up with a call to the FBO asking for an airport advisory (even though the airport has a perfectly functioning ASOS). That call would also seem to indicate that the pilot is lazy and/or not listening. But, only after you've made those two calls can you tell the FBO that
And, considering how much discussion this has generated on ALL the boards, and that it is addressed in the AIM, my first impression when I hear an ATITAPA call is typically "he's an idiot" especially if he stammers through the call. But I resist the urge to respond "I advise you read the AIM"...
...well, most of the time
Last edited:
Here we go again, eh!
What, Citations don't have a second radio? When I'm IFR into a small field and still talking to ATC, I tune #2 to the CTAF at 15 miles out and and make my first position report at 10 miles out just like I do if I'm arriving VFR. [ Quote]
Tuning into an ASOS, if one is available is always done miles out. **** happens ALOT faster in the Citation then a 182 sir. We don't have time to play "radio babysitter" and monitor the freq to wait for a reply. If a target is showing up on the TCAS and he/she ain't talking we get nervous. Some people have already stated in this thread they will ignore calls inquiring about local traffic. I guess the easiest way to comform to the AIM is to announce.... " here we come, get the hell out of the way"..
I will just say Randy Babbit said it was ok.
off my soapbox now and going to get Randy another beer.:wink2:
Can we punctuation Nazis play too?
Seriously, the AIM recommendation says "Pilots stating, 'Traffic in the area, please advise' is not a recognized Self−Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition" [emphasis added]. Notice that it doesn't say controllers.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Very true, and I was going to acknowledge that in my post but failed to do so.
Still, assuming a two pilot operation, and the copilot already has his nose clean, then he has nothing better to do at 15 miles out than "babysit the radios" (and, yes, I've flown right seat in a citation and have a feel for the workload).
This, unless, of course, we're don't want to lower ourselves to the "CTAF" until the very last minute, which I admit, is hard when one's been on a "professional frequency" for a few hours and doesn't have to put up with ATITAPA. But, still, it's gotta be done sooner or later so it might as well be sooner.
Over at the red board, some guy wants to take a joy ride into ORD in a 172. I'm sorry, but I think he's moron for wanting to do so.
Well, when the shoe's on the other foot and "the professional boys" want to come into the "little playgrounds" then they need to abide by the "little playground" rules and not make up their own or they look just as silly as that 172 guy does.
My take on this is that I don't need to have someone ask me in order to make position and intention reports, and if the situation indicates that it could be useful, I've even been known to make extra reports. "Any traffic in the area please advise" seems to me about as useful as saying "Any traffic in the area please follow the AIM."
That having been said, I don't consider it my responsibility to be the CTAF police.
That having been said, I don't consider it my responsibility to be the CTAF police.
Hard to not agree with Tim here. Considering the Citation, the plane I fly is as fast as the Citation down at pattern altitudes and I fly single pilot as do many Citations. My audio panel allows me to monitor two frequencies at the same time and broadcast on either one I choose. A quick call 12-15 miles out with general position. If VFR, cancel 5-7 miles out and make first position report entering the pattern then perhaps another turning final if not doing a straight in approach. Seems like this would work for a 182 or a GIV. As the weather gets worse then the workload may go up untill definate IFR conditions then the workload goes back down since the VFR aircraft are out of the picture. I will admit when I hear that phrase it causes me to assume it is a low time VFR pilot. As Richard says the AIM is pretty clear. But that is just me.
Last edited:
Hi Tim... it is a single pilot CJ-4 and I am just right seating it to watch the 'magic' happen... Until I was exposed to this side of GA flying I had no idea of how the private jet system worked and how fast stuff happens.. I can say the workload I witness as we decend from fl450 to an uncontrolled field is quite busy. I just don't want to be part of the flaming wreckage raining down on the countryside from a midair..
.Peace.
Ben.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2005
- Messages
- 9,486
- Display Name
Display name:
Pilawt
I rarely hear "the phrase that shall not be uttered" around here, except from "working" pilots. Go figure.
Gotta admit, though, it doesn't chafe at me nearly as much as the redneck CTAF yakkers as mentioned above, or the bizjet descending out of FL320 broadcasting to the destination FBO (and every other airport in a 500-mile radius on the same CTAF) about arrangements for transportation, lodging, food, oxygen, female companionship, lav service, etc., etc., etc.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
As long as you're bringing the same amount of business to town that he is, you have every right to be offended. Does it bother you as much when the bug-smasher spends 10 minutes trying to figure out if the self-serve pump is back in service?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
So, now there's a caste system for airplanes, eh? Well, I guess that means I'm an "untouchable" flying a 182...
Sounds like you need a copilot, Ben.
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
About the plane at the hold short line... I have experienced one pulling out and then stopping while I'm on final. And a friend of mine has a couple of times had a pilot pullnright out in front of him when he was over the fence in a biplane with little visibility where had he not checked one more time they might of shared paint. Anyway, when I see a plane right up against the hold short line I announce quite clearly that I'm SHORT final in hopes of getting their attention, just in case. And yeah sure you could go around side step and all that but I'd rather just land.
dell30rb
Final Approach
As long as you're bringing the same amount of business to town that he is, you have every right to be offended. Does it bother you as much when the bug-smasher spends 10 minutes trying to figure out if the self-serve pump is back in service?
The wealthiest person i know has been a pilot for the last 30 years. He has owned everything from a king air to a 152. His current ride is an old cherokee six which he bought for a song and had restored.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I guess you're referring to a different post of Wayne's than I thought you were. I thought you were referring to this:
Which was the statement immediately above your comment.
Sorry.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
What other freq would you like the G-whiz to use? Is it a legitimate use of the frequency? Does the FBO care if he takes a couple of extra minutes to handle the business? How many fill-ups will you need to buy 2,500 gallons?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
When I worked at a charter operation the frequency that the pilots used to make arrangements for their passengers was the phone on the ground before they departed. Making arrangements for the passengers during the last 15 minutes of flight comes across as unprofessional and would seem to add unnecessary workload at a critical stage of flight. A quick check to confirm things are ready is one thing, but making arrangements from scratch is another thing completely and we've all heard that happen.
But that's not the point of any of my posts, it's just worth mentioning because it's icing on the ATITAPA cake.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Your testimony is that time-sensitive arrangements/confirmations for FBO services, catering and ground transportation can be made several hours in advance? Have you ever departed Addison or Teterboro during rush hour?
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
yawn...you're boring me Wayne.
I'm done.
I'm done.
But it's nice when they keep it short. Jet going into the ski areas light up the freq in three or four states. I understand the FBO has the license but so do all the others. Kind of like the Jets that light up Flight Watch from 40,000 (FW usually does switch them to the high altitude channel.)
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
SkyHog
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,431
- Location
- Castle Rock, CO
- Display Name
Display name:
Everything Offends Me
I refuse to respond to atitapa. I figure they'll heat me soon enough when I make mu next pattern call.
Richard
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 9,076
- Location
- West Coast Resistance
- Display Name
Display name:
Ack...city life
...it sure beats, ATENCION A TODOS LOS AVIONES, la torre está abierta.
Or he can wait for the person to make the next traffic call like everyone who doesnt use ATITAPA.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne