I think we can all agree -- THAT should be in the AIM
"Any traffic in the area please advise..."
- Thread starter BellyUpFish
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I think we can all agree -- THAT should be in the AIM
...I was sitting on the ramp one day about to spin and noticed 2 aircraft taxi out within a couple minutes of each other. One headed to 29. One headed to 11.
The winds were favoring 29, but were something negligible like 4 knots. The guy going to 29 made all the appropriate radio calls. The guy going to 11 never said a word, so I followed the traffic to 11. I'd rather have the guy making no calls in front of me, rather than behind me.
The traffic on 29 announced he was taking the runway and would be departing. The guy on 11 taxied out into position almost simultaneously and started to add power. I couldn't believe my eyes.
No one else said a word, so I keyed up.. "You guys have an aircraft departing off both ends of that runway.."
The 11 guy stopped his roll and exited on the intersecting 18/36. The guy on 29 made a call he was aborting the take-off run..
Obviously the nordo guy heard me, as he stopped, but never made a single radio call.
Wow, good job!
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
I think you might be on to something..
TPTSNBU = The Phrase That Shall Not Be Uttered..
Yes'r. It should. Maybe in the glossary, at least.
Wow, good job!
I couldn't believe it.
wabower
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Wayne
Pilot behavior often emulates FAA behavior in that no issue is so small that we can't make a big deal out of it.
housefly
Pre-Flight
What about this scenario at an uncontrolled field:
finish runup in runup area(also listening for traffic)turn and look for traffic,roll to hold short line,
"Podunk traffic,Skyhawk123 holding short rnwy17 departing to the south ,any traffic on base or short final please advise,Podunk"....good call?/bad call?
finish runup in runup area(also listening for traffic)turn and look for traffic,roll to hold short line,
"Podunk traffic,Skyhawk123 holding short rnwy17 departing to the south ,any traffic on base or short final please advise,Podunk"....good call?/bad call?
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
First, the pilot about to take off should be looking for "any traffic on base or final."
If you can't see, turn so you get a clear view of the sky.
Then announce taking off and direction of flight. If someone hears the transmission and cares, he/she will respond. If they don't look for them anyway.
It all boils down to this -- the radio is an AID, NOT the primary collision-avoidance tool. Those tools are on either side of your nose.
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I say good call.............
If the freq is quiet, your announcment will not hurt a darn thing since no one else is talking on it anywayand on the slight chance someone is really on final and you don't see him/her the extra radio call might save your a$$. As pilot in command I am going to use every tool available to me to make for a safe outcome of any flight, if that involves a simple, quick request for additional traffic in the area then so be it..... Like it or not guys, I AIN'T changing..
.Ben.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
I say good call.............
If the freq is quiet, your announcment will not hurt a darn thing since no one else is talking on it anywayand on the slight chance someone is really on final and you don't see him/her the extra radio call might save your a$$. As pilot in command I am going to use every tool available to me to make for a safe outcome of any flight, if that involves a simple, quick request for additional traffic in the area then so be it..... Like it or not guys, I AIN'T changing..
Ben.
Hi Ben, I'm Jeff. Can we be friends?
+1...
rottydaddy
En-Route
I try to pay the same amount of attention regardless of the radio chatter.
I probably up the ante a bit more when I hear bad radio calls over no radio calls though. A guy on the radio who sounds like a moron probably is.
I was sitting on the ramp one day about to spin and noticed 2 aircraft taxi out within a couple minutes of each other. One headed to 29. One headed to 11.
The winds were favoring 29, but were something negligible like 4 knots. The guy going to 29 made all the appropriate radio calls. The guy going to 11 never said a word, so I followed the traffic to 11. I'd rather have the guy making no calls in front of me, rather than behind me.
The traffic on 29 announced he was taking the runway and would be departing. The guy on 11 taxied out into position almost simultaneously and started to add power. I couldn't believe my eyes.
No one else said a word, so I keyed up.. "You guys have an aircraft departing off both ends of that runway.."
The 11 guy stopped his roll and exited on the intersecting 18/36. The guy on 29 made a call he was aborting the take-off run..
Obviously the nordo guy heard me, as he stopped, but never made a single radio call.
Yeeaarggghhh...
I'm OK with NORDO, do it often, but if I have a comm radio and can use it, I transmit intentions. When I fly the gliders with just my handheld, I often can't free a hand to transmit (like holding half spoilers on base in the 1-26), but at least I listen... How the heck do two aircraft with working radios tuned to the same CTAF wind up facing off for takeoff?
Maybe this guy just forgot to turn it on until after the other guy made his departure call?
That I'm not too sure about. Between the idle chatter and the extraneous or just plain misleading calls, I hear more than I need to. I'm not talking about nervous noobs, or folks who speak English as a second language, or the scratchy-old-radio crowd... I mean the people who sound like they never flew with an instructor, and have just stolen an airplane and are figuring it out as they go. Or the other camp- the locals who think the airport and CTAF are for their exclusive use, not transients. Sadly, these two groups overlap, big-time.
And not so ironically, the ones who transmit nonsense almost always are also the ones you really have to watch out for.
All of these dummies are a minority, but there are too many of 'em, IMHO.So radio or no, I am calm in and around the pattern as long as I know I am diligently looking and thinking... and flying without comms has improved my ability to do both effectively. :wink2:
I really try to be friends with every living soul... Some are just"less welcome " then others.
..When you want to stop into my private airport, http://www.airnav.com/airport/2WY3
just ask..... If you don't use the phrase I like then I will let the grizzles sleep next to your plane at night..
...I can hear it now ,,, " any bears in the area please advise" .
.Peace to all.
Ben.
rottydaddy
En-Route
I say good call.............
If the freq is quiet, your announcment will not hurt a darn thing since no one else is talking on it anywayand on the slight chance someone is really on final and you don't see him/her the extra radio call might save your a$$. As pilot in command I am going to use every tool available to me to make for a safe outcome of any flight, if that involves a simple, quick request for additional traffic in the area then so be it..... Like it or not guys, I AIN'T changing..
Ben.
Your perogative, and a logical choice. But I trust you take a good look, as well. Me, I don't ask "anybody base or final?" anymore before takeoff, mostly because it removes any temptation to just roll out there without looking. If I have a radio, I'll announce, but that's it. If arriving traffic is NORDO, though (or on the wrong freq, or bad radio), neither that nor ATITAPA is going to do a damn bit of good, assuming the arriving NORDO does not see you holding short or rolling out.
Even controllers are no substitute for just looking... got cleared onto the active by a tower once, with traffic on short final. Maybe the controller just assumed we were looking (we were), but still... the radio is no guarantee anywhere, anytime, but if you use every inch of glass you have, all the time, you're as well-protected as you can be. It's just my dumb luck that this happened to me at a towered field, as well as two close-ish shaves in the pattern, but boy, were those events educational. Made me start thinking about the radio more as a tool for reaching beyond what you can see, not for dealing with what should be in plain sight.
I am just about tired of you "less then smart" people thinking using ititapa is a bypass to using mark one eyeballs. I have been flying longer then you have probably been alive and I ain't hit anything yet, soooo. Chill out.
.Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
Mostly I ignore those lost souls who believe that the FAR/AIM requires them to beg for position reports... If I will be near or intersect his reported position I will announce in response, obviously (I won't however add ATPA to my transmission)
However, if I am not going to intersect or be close to him and I am having a bad hair day I might reply, 'OK, I'll advise that you are ugly"...
Did that one time to an airplane that was over flying our airport 5000 feet above our Class D traffic area (fer gawds sake) who made a position announcement 10 miles out, 5 miles out, 2 miles out, 1 mile out, and was almost begginbg for advise... I advised him... He then proceeded to have an emotional melt down demanding to know who said that, and he was going to report me to the FAA, and on, and on... I actually felt bad that my flip comment had wounded him so deeply...
When I got into the pilots lounge the gang , who had heard every bit of it and even went out with binoculars to see if he was really that speck up in the sky (he was), were in hysterics... I was months living that one down...
denny-o
However, if I am not going to intersect or be close to him and I am having a bad hair day I might reply, 'OK, I'll advise that you are ugly"...
Did that one time to an airplane that was over flying our airport 5000 feet above our Class D traffic area (fer gawds sake) who made a position announcement 10 miles out, 5 miles out, 2 miles out, 1 mile out, and was almost begginbg for advise... I advised him... He then proceeded to have an emotional melt down demanding to know who said that, and he was going to report me to the FAA, and on, and on... I actually felt bad that my flip comment had wounded him so deeply...
When I got into the pilots lounge the gang , who had heard every bit of it and even went out with binoculars to see if he was really that speck up in the sky (he was), were in hysterics... I was months living that one down...
denny-o
rottydaddy
En-Route
I am just about tired of you "less then smart" people thinking using ititapa is a bypass to using mark one eyeballs. I have been flying longer then you have probably been alive and I ain't hit anything yet, soooo. Chill out.
I didn't think I was getting excited...
And I think you misunderstood my post. Maybe I should point out that when I use "IMHO" in a post, the "H" stands for "humble." I'm not posturing, just talking about ATITAPA... and I'm not done yet. If I seem to take aircraft collisions in VMC too seriously,what can I say? Aren't they often serious? And aren't they nearly always pathetically avoidable?
I'm not accusing any ATITAPA users of specifically using it as a substitute for looking. But I have seen and heard cringe-inducing near-disasters unfold when the magic phrase is used as a substitute for regular position and intention reports, or a substitute for paying attention to others' reports.
I'm not trying to convince anybody to stop using ATITAPA. As long as they are being smart with the aircraft and looking out, they can say "Elbow dinette yellow xylophone" before takeoff or before they enter the pattern, for all I care. It really doesn't use much time... it's the chattering and long drawn-out announcements that are the real problem with CTAF-clogging.
I don't even care if anybody uses a radio at airports with no active tower. Not when it's VFR. The difference between flying smart and flying stupid was established well before the first radio went aloft in an aircraft, and it hasn't changed. Hell, if someone even entered the pattern (with me) at an airport with an active tower without transmitting or listening, I wouldn't really care at this point. Either the tower would be working them with a light gun, or I'd just have to stay the hell out of their way. I do not have the world's best eyes, nor is my scan the most vigilant, but I know not to lean on the radio, and I am not at a loss without one.
But I am challenging someone, I guess, to prove to me that ATITAPA is not redundant, when "normal" pattern protocols, radio and non-radio, are observed.
Heard the usual arguments, and some passionate refusals to be bullied into not saying it, but I'm not convinced, that's all.
I'm still convinced that ATITAPA, when used under VFR by pilots (not towers opening for the day) is a blunt tool as tools go, practically useless, and from my limited experience, possibly more effective in degrading VFR vigilance than anything else.
I mean, it's like saying a prayer, or a secret password, or rubbing a lucky charm. Pilots take great comfort in it, and that makes me a little nervous, because they don't need this shibboleth when all they have to do is announce position and intentions, listen for other announcements (particularly those pertinent to their own), and look around. They insist on saying something that is completely and utterly redundant (assuming one has announced position and intentions already). This doesn't make any more sense than saying "oookayyy, guys, I said I was 5 miles north, and inbound to land... if anybody has something to say... well, you know... don't be shy...". Seriously- it's the same thing, in effect. This seems irrational to me. Am I crazy to see it that way? In short, why say it, if it has no purpose beyond already-stated position and intentions? If others are not announcing, will these requests get them to speak up? Is it not safe to continue if nobody responds to your normal position and intention reports? What is the reasoning, other than "I like to say it, leave me alone already!"
It doesn't seem useful, IMHO, when announcing position and intentions, listening to these announcements, thinking about what one will say and what others have said, visualizing the scenario that the radio chatter suggests, and simply looking out are proven to be sufficient.
If, Ben, in your many years flying (49 years, if you've been at it since before I was born) you've never hit anything, other than dumb luck (even the best of the best get bad breaks, I mean no offense) was it really ever because of ATITAPA, or because you are good at the other stuff?
Tell me about a time you announced position and intentions, then looked, heard and saw nothing, then said "ATITAPA" or "ATBOFPA" and directly as a result of that transmission, you heard other traffic. Then explain how you know that if you heard what seemed to be a reply, it was a reply to one of these requests, and not just a normal announcement.
I'm not being a smartass; I actually would like to hear about it, because I never have experienced this, even during the brief time that I liked to say the "magic words". I've heard "Anybody base or final?" asked literally as the pilot making that request is rolling across the hold line, with traffic on final, in plain sight. I've also heard "ATITAPA", with no other words, followed by someone shortly thereafter coming out of freaking nowhere into the pattern, usually in some unorthodox way. These special requests are not the only transmissions used irresponsibly, I realize that. But at least an incomplete or incorrect position report, or a vague report of intentions, is still intended to provide any traffic with the info they might need to avoid you, not an attempt to take a poll of everybody in the pattern and moving on the airport.
And BTW, you can just call me "stupid" if you like- no need for euphemisms. I've been called worse.
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I'm not trying to convince anybody to stop using ATITAPA. As long as they are being smart with the aircraft and looking out,
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And BTW, you can just call me "stupid" if you like- no need for euphemisms. I've been called worse.
Great post and I commend you on taking all that time to share your feeling, which came out loud and clear..
My thoughts are in regard to this sentence of yours.
("If, Ben, in your many years flying (49 years, if you've been at it since before I was born) you've never hit anything, other than dumb luck (even the best of the best get bad breaks, I mean no offense) was it really ever because of ATITAPA, or because you are good at the other stuff?
Tell me about a time you announced position and intentions, then looked, heard and saw nothing, then said "ATITAPA" or "ATBOFPA" and directly as a result of that transmission, you heard other traffic. Then explain how you know that if you heard what seemed to be a reply, it was a reply to one of these requests, and not just a normal announcement")
I personally think that an extra radio call might help in getting another aircrafts attention so a collision could be prevented... We both know there is no way to quantify that. I will go on believing ATPA will help me while still scanning the skies like a hawk. You are free to take the other road..
Ps... I was just going on your pic to "assume' your age... IMHO you don't look that old..
Ben ( any comments out there please post) Haas.
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Rotty, out of 180 posts (181 counting this one) your posts makes the most sense in this entire thread. Rotty, you are never going to convince some people. First, many don't care how unprofessional they sound. Second, many don't know how unprofessional they sound which leads to a lot of goofy things heard on the radio. Third, many do get a false sense of security useing non standard phrases. Ben, like others, thinks that last phrase may drag a position report out that might not otherwise be given. This is one of those issues that no matter how correct you are it will not change the action of very many. Maybe this thread will change the habits of just one pilot. Perhaps one pilot somewhere will be more dilligent in making proper position reports, and keeping his scan outside the cockpit. The latter I could improve on. Your points are well taken by many but some will never agree. It is time to let this windmill alone. It is what it is.
BellyUpFish
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dmccormack
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Yeah, like "Skyhawk 1234 taking off runway 8, departing the pattern eastbound..."
No "Please advise me, please?" required.
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
Jeff, you crack me up!! I am not sure this is the windmill that Don Quixote was swinging at but, who knows.
Oh there are plenty of modern day Quixote's..
David7700
Pre-takeoff checklist
I know there will never be agreement on this issue, but it is tough flying the pattern with a couple other folks and have a jet come in and announce 5 miles out straight in for 33 atitapa and Unicom and have the fuel truck standing by because we have to make a quick turn around and is the rental car there for the Smith party and could catering have a couple of sandwiches ready . . . And all I want to do I announce turning base. There is not time for all of the traffic in the area to advise. What they really want is for any traffic that might constitute a hazard to advise. And that traffic should announce their position once they hear the jet call the 5 miles out straight in making atitapa superfluous.
housefly
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I agree with Dan,radio is an aid,not a sustitute for eyes.At my uncontrolled field after runup:routinely,Instructor has me turn plane to have clear view,look & listen,roll to Holdshort line(still looking,listening-don't overlook nordos).If I'm at the hold short and hear an inbound call: "Joe blow456 turning base for17",or,"turning final for 17",I will say: "Cessna 123 will hold short for Joe blow456 till you're clear 17".If I've seen or heard no traffic; "Podunk traffic,Cessna123 departing 17 to the south,any traffic on base or short final please advise",if I see no one-hear no one,proceed.It might not be necessary,to add that,but it could avert a disaster if they are listening,speaking(but don't assume it)Thus far in my brief experience we've waited or rolled after communicating with pattern traffic,waited for nordo,waited for faster aircraft on final but not in sight,rolled when wide base or long finals were no factor.I could see it being an extra layer of safety to some, pain in the a-- to others.If the frequency isn't busy,not holding someone up behind you,why not? I don't want to spoil your day or mine. Look for traffic,communicate ,don't be complacent or assume,be courteous,don't lollygag around either. Sounds like a good thing to me.Besides, the PIC told me to...
....TPTSBU ?,I wouldn't use it,won't get bent out of shape if I hear it,might answer if our positions are revelant,won't if not.Your area could be along ways from mine.
....TPTSBU ?,I wouldn't use it,won't get bent out of shape if I hear it,might answer if our positions are revelant,won't if not.Your area could be along ways from mine.
Over the weekend, I heard something much more irritating than ATITAPA...an Allegro pilot probably doing all of 75kts making numerous calls while 10-15 miles out. Made a 15 mile call, farted around for a few minutes, made a 12 mile call, farted around some more, made a 10 mile call, ANOTHER 12 mile call , another 10 mile call, a 7 mile call, 4 mile call, then in the pattern. I think it took him 30 minutes to land from the time he first called. But he never said ATITAPA.
, another 10 mile call, a 7 mile call, 4 mile call, then in the pattern. I think it took him 30 minutes to land from the time he first called. But he never said ATITAPA.
dmccormack
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OK, yesterday was the downright funniest/dumbest "please advise" I've heard in a long, long time...
One airplane departing, us in the pattern on base, Cherokee taxis into position.
We turn final 3/4 mile out, lights on, yada..
"Smoketown, Cherokee 1234, Any traffic on final please advise.."
"I advise you let us land..."
One airplane departing, us in the pattern on base, Cherokee taxis into position.
We turn final 3/4 mile out, lights on, yada..
"Smoketown, Cherokee 1234, Any traffic on final please advise.."
"I advise you let us land..."
OK, yesterday was the downright funniest/dumbest "please advise" I've heard in a long, long time...
One airplane departing, us in the pattern on base, Cherokee taxis into position.
We turn final 3/4 mile out, lights on, yada..
"Smoketown, Cherokee 1234, Any traffic on final please advise.."
"I advise you let us land..."
That is sad. "I advise you to use your eyeballs."
wabower
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Wayne
You gotta be able to play with pain if you wanna play in the bigs. You also need to know that the pilot of that jet can be fired just as quickly for screwing up the catering or ground transportation as for flying into a thunderstorm, and he will be confirming everything that is confirmable as his final CYA. It's never going to change and he's not doing it because he doesn't like you.
gismo
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Must have been one heckuva headwind.Over the weekend, I heard something much more irritating than ATITAPA...an Allegro pilot probably doing all of 75kts making numerous calls while 10-15 miles out. Made a 15 mile call, farted around for a few minutes, made a 12 mile call, farted around some more, made a 10 mile call, ANOTHER 12 mile call
BellyUpFish
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Backtothesand
You guys would be proud of me. Had a crew member yesterday who insisted on using "TPTSNBU" and we talked about it once we got on the ground.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
You guys would be proud of me. Had a crew member yesterday who insisted on using "TPTSNBU" and we talked about it once we got on the ground.
What the heck is TPTSBU?
Speed
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SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
The Procedure Turn Should Not Be Used?
Ahh...probably "The phrase that shall not be used."
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