Any benefit for SAR when filing IFR and going VFR?

[TimRF79]

Scenario:
I file an IFR plan, but then wx is fine and i go VFR.
Something happens and I don't get to my destination.
Will they be able would they pull the IFR plan and search along that route for a wreckage?

 

[LesGawlik]

If you don't accept a clearance, how will they know? I think your P Strip will just go in the basket for storage and eventual destruction.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Consider that if you cancelled IFR, it's probably because you didn't want to go the as-filed route.

 

[bflynn]

If you cancel IFR, the most likely assumption we would make is that you went direct VFR unless there's something like an airspace obstacle. A site like Flight Aware is one tool that can be used if you're being tracked. But the VFR part without tracking makes it more difficult.

Honestly, if you want the best advice, if you're going to crash, turn your cell phone on (because you DID turn it off when you took off, right ). Triangulating a cell phone signal will get a team to within about 20 ft of your location.

 

[asicer]

Honestly, if you want the best advice, if you're going to crash, turn your cell phone on (because you DID turn it off when you took off, right ). Triangulating a cell phone signal will get a team to within about 20 ft of your location.

Don't they need to narrow down the search to a set of towers first? And in order to do that, don't they need your route of flight?

 

[bflynn]

I don't know all the fine details, but I understand they don't have to start from a set of towers. With your phone number and the proper authorization, they can locate you within the system by seeing what towers you've recently hit.

 

[luvflyin]

Scenario:
I file an IFR plan, but then wx is fine and i go VFR.
Something happens and I don't get to my destination.
Will they be able would they pull the IFR plan and search along that route for a wreckage?

Hmm. The IFR flight plan will ‘time out’ after a certain time, don’t remember exactly how long. Whether or not that data is recoverable after that time I dunno. I suppose if so, the SAR dudes might consider the route you filed. Any CAP guys here who might know?

 

[luvflyin]

If you don't accept a clearance, how will they know? I think your P Strip will just go in the basket for storage and eventual destruction.

Are you a Controller?

 

[Clip4]

Forensically they can do a lot of things, but unless your concern is the recovery of your corpse I would have an open flight plan, a 406 ELT and a flight following device.

 

[asicer]

I don't know all the fine details, but I understand they don't have to start from a set of towers. With your phone number and the proper authorization, they can locate you within the system by seeing what towers you've recently hit.

Now you got me thinking that maybe it's not such a good idea to use my Google Voice number on my pre-flight weather briefing...

 

[TimRF79]

If you cancel IFR, the most likely assumption we would make is that you went direct VFR unless there's something like an airspace obstacle. A site like Flight Aware is one tool that can be used if you're being tracked. But the VFR part without tracking makes it more difficult.

Honestly, if you want the best advice, if you're going to crash, turn your cell phone on (because you DID turn it off when you took off, right ). Triangulating a cell phone signal will get a team to within about 20 ft of your location.

And with ADS-B out they kinda know where to look directionally anyhow...

 

[Hang 4]

Who would know to search? Assume someone will be looking for you to arrive and notice that you haven't. They then need to try and figure out who to let know that you might be missing. I would also assume that those who would know you are missing, would know - where you were coming from, the N number of your plane, the time you should be arriving etc..

I'd suggest flight following. The chances that someone actually is able to locate your IFR plan, that you never activated, seems a stretch.

 

[luvflyin]

Consider that if you cancelled IFR, it's probably because you didn't want to go the as-filed route.

I don’t think cancelling IFR is the issue here. He decided to not get an IFR Clearance in the first place.

 

[asicer]

Forensically they can do a lot of things, but unless your concern is the recovery of your corpse I would have an open flight plan, a 406 ELT and a flight following device.

Here's Berto's latest thoughts on the topic from last week.
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/risk-management/is-a-406-elt-worth-it-reduce-expectations/

 

[Deelee]

I file an IFR plan, but then wx is fine and i go VFR.
Something happens and I don't get to my destination.
Will they be able would they pull the IFR plan and search along that route for a wreckage?

If you want SAR, then either stay on your IFR plan even though it is VMC, file and open a VFR flight plan or just get FF when you get airborne.

Not trying to pry here, but you were the person who didn't want to go IMC on your IFR plan with ceilings OVC 1500 and tops 4500 and the freezy clouds at like 7000 right? Fears of something happening in IMC... something about worried about what would happen if you had an in-flight emergency and had to land in IMC... Now this post about something happening in VMC and SAR coverage. I have to ask - are you concerned about something specific? Your aircraft not being up to the task? Or something else?

 

[LesGawlik]

'"Are you a Controller?"

No, but I've listened to all 150+ episodes of Opposing Bases, so I'm half way there.

 

[Rgbeard]

406 ELT with a GPS feed seems like the best option to me. Ymmv.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

I am perplexed by the perennial resistance to filing a VFR flight plan. In the US, the VFR flight plan is a formal request for search and rescue services if an aircraft is overdue. It secondarily gives information to assist in that process. If you want someone to look for you, and you are not on an active IFR flight plan, then file and activate a VFR flight plan. This can be accomplished in a minute or less. Opening and closing takes only seconds, especially with text message functions or by using apps. If you are not sure whether you'll go IFR or VFR, then file both. The $1 fee for a flight plan is small potatoes.
Just kidding about the fee of course. It's free. So why not do it?
Jon

 

[3393RP]

So why not do it?

For some reason, around here it's considered unmanly and a subject of ridicule.

 

[Palmpilot]

For some reason, around here it's considered unmanly and a subject of ridicule.

Reminds me of this:

 

[flyingron]

Frankly, the route isn't much looked at on a SAR effort. They draw a circle of your stated fuel range (fuel on board and TAS) from your last known position and look inside that.

 

[asicer]

For some reason, around here it's considered unmanly and a subject of ridicule.

I suppose that it means you have no friends (at least none that care if you are found).

 

[David Megginson]

Scenario:
I file an IFR plan, but then wx is fine and i go VFR.
Something happens and I don't get to my destination.
Will they be able would they pull the IFR plan and search along that route for a wreckage?

If you're visiting us in the Great White North, file an IFR or VFR flight plan, and then don't eventually close or cancel, they'll be out searching for you regardless. :-/

 

[David Megginson]

Reminds me of this:

View attachment 94430

Even if it's a fake, that picture's priceless. Someone could save a whole term's tuition for a gender-studies course just by sharing it with their kids.

 

[asicer]

If you're visiting us in the Great White North, file an IFR or VFR flight plan, and then don't eventually close or cancel, they'll be out searching for you regardless. :-/

Same is true in the USA. The difference is in response time and search area. And the fact that many VFR pilots don't bother with a flight plan.

 

[airdale]

Frankly, the route isn't much looked at on a SAR effort. They draw a circle of your stated fuel range (fuel on board and TAS) from your last known position and look inside that.

What country do you live in?

 

[Palmpilot]

Even if it's a fake, that picture's priceless. Someone could save a whole term's tuition for a gender-studies course just by sharing it with their kids.

The only thing fake about it is the caption.

https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/8x63g2/siri_show_me_fragile_masculinity/

"Nothing to do with fragile masculinity, he's been interviewed by her plenty of times at his regular height. Probably not too worried about it considering he shared the image himself joking about his height."
​

There's also this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-sparked-an-online-debate-about-masculinity/

And this video:

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/dodgers-ki...a-bucket-in-his-postgame-interview-c225429262

"Following Wednesday's 4-2 win over the Rockies, Dodgers outfielder Kiké Hernandez had a post-game interview with Dodgers reporter Kelli Tennant. If you're not familiar with Tennant's work, you might not be aware that, as a former collegiate volleyball player, she is quite tall. The USC athletic department, where she played collegiately, lists her as 6'2".

At a listed 5'11", Hernandez comes in at about an average height, but, decided to flip the script on this interview."
​

(Apologies for the thread drift.)

 

[airdale]

Scenario:
I file an IFR plan, but then wx is fine and i go VFR.
Something happens and I don't get to my destination.
Will they be able would they pull the IFR plan and search along that route for a wreckage?

Lots of good comments here, but one aspect is mostly missing: time. If you crash near your departure airport (near to departure and arrival airports are the most common crash sites), how long will it take before someone realizes you're missing and tries to do something about it? An IFR flight plan is your best insurance, next is flight following, next is a VFR flight plan.

Once you are suspected to be missing, there are procedures that are cranked through (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap10_section_3.html), AFRCC becomes involved and only then is a SAR effort initiated. At that point, people start trying to define a search area using all the information available, some of which takes time to get. IFR/FF radar tracks, all radar tracks leaving the departure airport within a time window, ADS-B data, cell phone data, ELT hits on the geosynchronous and LEO birds, ... Searches in the vicinity of the departure and arrival airport may be initiated. Searches on the GPS-direct track +/- a few miles may be initiated, etc. All of this stuff takes time to crank up -- hours and hours of time added to the elapsed hours before you are known to be missing.

Why not make sure someone will recognize you are missing? Why not file? Why not fly a direct route? Why not leave your cell phone turned on? (I know, I know, ...) And, for Chrissake, why not paint your airplane some bright colors. Red is a dark color, btw. Green is also the color of the trees you may be in. Plain white is also the color or snow. Camouflage (at one point apparently popular with Grummans) is prima facie evidence that you have flunked your IQ test.

Dressing and gear to survive is out of scope for this thread, but there is a lot to know and to do in preparation for what glider pilots call "landing out."

 

[Lon33]

. . . turn your cell phone on (because you DID turn it off when you took off, right )

Remind me why we’re supposed to turn off our cell phones before take off.

 

[Stan Cooper]

406 ELT with a GPS feed seems like the best option to me. Ymmv.

I'm with Rusty on this. I also carry a 406 MHz PLB with built-in GPS as a backup when I fly.

 

[LesGawlik]

In my AO, rescuers could find you simply by driving to the area being circled by the news helicopters.

Also, why not get FF? I would get FF to taxi to the self-serve if they would let me.

Why would you worry about someone coming to look for you hours later when you could be radar-identified and talking to ATC in real time?

 

[airdale]

Remind me why we’re supposed to turn off our cell phones before take off.

It's an old FCC regulation. IIRC when it was created, an airborne analog cell phone could engage a large number of cells and cause service to deteriorate. I am not a cell phone expert but I think the technical issue is gone. Another more recent aspect I think you might call sociological; it keeps commercial flights/other travelers from being plagued by multiple people yelling into their cell phones.

 

[Palmpilot]

It's an old FCC regulation. IIRC when it was created, an airborne analog cell phone could engage a large number of cells and cause service to deteriorate. I am not a cell phone expert but I think the technical issue is gone. Another more recent aspect I think you might call sociological; it keeps commercial flights/other travelers from being plagued by multiple people yelling into their cell phones.

There is also a concern that intentional transmitters (such as cell phones) are more likely to interfere with aircraft navigation equipment than other personal electronic devices.

 

[David Megginson]

Camouflage (at one point apparently popular with Grummans) is prima facie evidence that you have flunked your IQ test.

I'm always curious about that. I don't hunt, but my grandpa did (and my dad, when he was young). When they'd go into the woods in hunting season 60+ years ago, they'd wear bright colours like red and white checks so that other hunters would see them.

Now, I see pictures of hunters mostly in military-style camo — is that because they want other hunters to not see them (and maybe shoot them by accident)?!? It's not as if it makes any difference hiding them from the animals.

 

[David Megginson]

In my AO, rescuers could find you simply by driving to the area being circled by the news helicopters.

Also, why not get FF? I would get FF to taxi to the self-serve if they would let me.

Why would you worry about someone coming to look for you hours later when you could be radar-identified and talking to ATC in real time?

They should use piston twins for SAR — I've heard that the second engine will always carry you to the scene of the accident.

 

[airdale]

There is also a concern that intentional transmitters (such as cell phones) are more likely to interfere with aircraft navigation equipment than other personal electronic devices.

Yes, forgot about that. But I think the experience of cell phones with our cheaply-made electronics in our spam cans with proximate antennas is strong evidence that this is not an issue. Also, there are plenty of passengers in air transport airplane who have left their cell phones on inadvertently or deliberately without issues.

I'm always curious about that. I don't hunt, but my grandpa did (and my dad, when he was young). When they'd go into the woods in hunting season 60+ years ago, they'd wear bright colours like red and white checks so that other hunters would see them.

Now, I see pictures of hunters mostly in military-style camo — is that because they want other hunters to not see them (and maybe shoot them by accident)?!? It's not as if it makes any difference hiding them from the animals.

There are state requirements for attire. In our state, a certain amount of blaze orange is required on deer hunters.

We once opened a SAR mission on the first day of deer hunting and I was in a search aircraft on the way to mission base. That blaze orange was amazing to see. Just a hat was easily vislble from 1000' AGL. Unfortunately the majority of deer stands looked like wrecked aircraft!

 

[Palmpilot]

Yes, forgot about that. But I think the experience of cell phones with our cheaply-made electronics in our spam cans with proximate antennas is strong evidence that this is not an issue. Also, there are plenty of passengers in air transport airplane who have left their cell phones on inadvertently or deliberately without issues.

I haven't flown enough IFR with my cell phone on to form a conclusion. As for airline passengers, most of them are a lot farther from the avionics and antennas than is the case with span-can passengers.

 

[Rgbeard]

Remind me why we’re supposed to turn off our cell phones before take off.

FAR 91.21

It's an old FCC regulation. IIRC when it was created, an airborne analog cell phone could engage a large number of cells and cause service to deteriorate. I am not a cell phone expert but I think the technical issue is gone. Another more recent aspect I think you might call sociological; it keeps commercial flights/other travelers from being plagued by multiple people yelling into their cell phones.

I'm not sure about the FCC giving a hoot, but the FAA does.

 

[bflynn]

Remind me why we’re supposed to turn off our cell phones before take off.

47 CFR 22.925 - Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

 

[TimRF79]

If you want SAR, then either stay on your IFR plan even though it is VMC, file and open a VFR flight plan or just get FF when you get airborne.

Not trying to pry here, but you were the person who didn't want to go IMC on your IFR plan with ceilings OVC 1500 and tops 4500 and the freezy clouds at like 7000 right? Fears of something happening in IMC... something about worried about what would happen if you had an in-flight emergency and had to land in IMC... Now this post about something happening in VMC and SAR coverage. I have to ask - are you concerned about something specific? Your aircraft not being up to the task? Or something else?

I do try to think about any possible scenario and like to be prepared as good as possible.
Admittingly watching only youtube videos that hammer how quickly something can go wrong, gives me a feeling that something goes wrong all the time. In reality something going wrong is rather rare.
Skydiving and Motorcycles are at least as dangerous as flying a well maintained IFR capable GA-plane with nice avionics and an AP.
But yet it feels 1,000 times more dangerous to me.
Also I decided i need to fly more and watch less 'scarry' youtube videos.

Lots of good comments here, but one aspect is mostly missing: time. If you crash near your departure airport (near to departure and arrival airports are the most common crash sites), how long will it take before someone realizes you're missing and tries to do something about it? An IFR flight plan is your best insurance, next is flight following, next is a VFR flight plan.

This is helpful, as it ranks the level of "find-ability"