Another student pilot wanders into DC airspace.

[Palmpilot]

Martin's CFI was not an issue -- he was a passenger. The instructor of concern in that one is the one who signed Shaffer's flight review a couple of weeks before the incident after 10 years out of flying.

Turns out his name is Sheaffer. (That's why I couldn't find him on an Internet search.)

 

[Palmpilot]

...and don't teach the student that the 430 works just fine without it...all ya gotta do is program a lat/long fix, and punch the "direct" button...

...or read the lat/long position off the GPS and plot it on the chart...

...or...

I would guess that students who are able to deal successfully with lat/long are not likely to be the ones who will have trouble navigating.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Smuggling episode?

Yes.

Apparently, one of the tenants at the airport was someone who flew drugs back from points south and out of country and brought it back here and distributed it. Part of a larger drug running ring.

http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/friends_of_ours/sinaloa/


Scroll down the page to "Lancaster County..."

Yep, we're just a happening place. Next thing you know, all the Amish will carry Uzis.

 

[Anthony]

Yep, we're just a happening place. Next thing you know, all the Amish will carry Uzis.

Bryon. I used to live in the old stone house which was once a boy's school at the end of runway 28. Its the house next to the fire station. It pains me to see bad news about this fine airport. I also did a lot of training their when I was getting my cert at the old Airways at KLNS way back when.

 

[dmccormack]

Bryon. I used to live in the old stone house which was once a boy's school at the end of runway 28. Its the house next to the fire station. It pains me to see bad news about this fine airport. I also did a lot of training their when I was getting my cert at the old Airways at KLNS way back when.

I learned to fly at Airways -- Chad Ochs owned the place..when were you flying there?

 

[Anthony]

I learned to fly at Airways -- Chad Ochs owned the place..when were you flying there?

1994 and the guy that now owns the Airways Pilot Shop owned the FBO and was Chief Instructor at the time. I'm having a mental block and can't think of his name. My instructor was Hal Gardner.

They had three 152's at the time for primary training ($37/hour wet) and those were the planes in which I learned.

 

[tdager]

Sorry guys...but some of you are definitely not practicing what you preach.

"Today's world is different", "this is a post 9/11", VOR's outstripped by WAAS approaches, complicated airspace, ARMED AIRCRAFT that can shoot you down.

Then toss in hazy conditions, congested ground cover where one thing looks like another, and you have a reciepe for disaster.

GPS is THE primary nav method of today, or soon will be. Even the FAA says it will slowly phase out VOR, NDB is all but dead, and we are looking at eLoran as a GPS backup.

Do NOT get me wrong, DR and pilotage should be taugh, most definitely, but the "my students will not use, or learn, GPS during primary training" is ridiculous. GPS IS primary today...and you are doing a disservice to the student not teaching them to use it.

 

[ScottM]

Sorry guys...but some of you are definitely not practicing what you preach.

"Today's world is different", "this is a post 9/11", VOR's outstripped by WAAS approaches, complicated airspace, ARMED AIRCRAFT that can shoot you down.

Then toss in hazy conditions, congested ground cover where one thing looks like another, and you have a reciepe for disaster.

GPS is THE primary nav method of today, or soon will be. Even the FAA says it will slowly phase out VOR, NDB is all but dead, and we are looking at eLoran as a GPS backup.

Do NOT get me wrong, DR and pilotage should be taugh, most definitely, but the "my students will not use, or learn, GPS during primary training" is ridiculous. GPS IS primary today...and you are doing a disservice to the student not teaching them to use it.

I went through this thread again and cannot find anywhere where anyone said that GPS should not be taught in primary training. I did find where people stated that basic nave should be taught prior to GPS and that GPS needs some additional training.

I think the issue here is a student getting signed off that may only be competent on one piece of nav gear and being unable to use back up methods to determine position is a bad thing.

 

[poadeleted20]

GPS is THE primary nav method of today, or soon will be. Even the FAA says it will slowly phase out VOR, NDB is all but dead, and we are looking at eLoran as a GPS backup.

Do NOT get me wrong, DR and pilotage should be taugh, most definitely, but the "my students will not use, or learn, GPS during primary training" is ridiculous. GPS IS primary today...and you are doing a disservice to the student not teaching them to use it.

Neither GPS nor any other electronic navigation system has been, is, or ever will be "the primary nav method." In the F-111 community, where we had all sorts of nav systems including ground mapping radar and INS, one of the questions asked during a crew certification board was, "What is your primary method of navigation?" The only acceptable answer was, "DR, backed up by radar, INS, and visual means" (VOR/TACAN being nonstarters in enemy territory). Even using a VOR requires some basic DR techniques for interception, bracketing and tracking.

Pilots who don't understand the fundamental concept of time/heading/distance will continue to end up like this poor schnook when the VOR, GPS, ADF, or any other electronic system starts taking them in the wrong direction due to either system malfunction or operator error. If you don't realize that the GED-Smoketown requires flying north, not west, and that the Chesapeake Bay is huge body of water compared to the C&D Canal, all the skill in the world with electronic systems won't save you from trouble.

 

[gismo]

Sorry guys...but some of you are definitely not practicing what you preach.

"Today's world is different", "this is a post 9/11", VOR's outstripped by WAAS approaches, complicated airspace, ARMED AIRCRAFT that can shoot you down.

Then toss in hazy conditions, congested ground cover where one thing looks like another, and you have a reciepe for disaster.

GPS is THE primary nav method of today, or soon will be. Even the FAA says it will slowly phase out VOR, NDB is all but dead, and we are looking at eLoran as a GPS backup.

Do NOT get me wrong, DR and pilotage should be taugh, most definitely, but the "my students will not use, or learn, GPS during primary training" is ridiculous. GPS IS primary today...and you are doing a disservice to the student not teaching them to use it.

I think you're right. I believe that GPS navigation and all it offers should be part of the PPL curriculum, but it also makes sense to me that the students need to learn how to navigate by visual reference alone as the day will come when their battery dies or something else prevents the GPS from providing guidance. IMO that doesn't necessarily mean following a carefully selected roulte drawn on a chart either as very, very few pilots will ever do that outside of training.

Seems like a very good training (dual) exercise would be to have the student fly towards a semi-distant airport using GPS and then "failing the GPS" at some point along the way leaving the student to complete the flight without it. That would not only start driving home the notion that GPS isn't infallible but would also provide the opportunity to develop the useful skill of impromtu pilotage in an unfamiliar area.

 

[poadeleted20]

Let me follow on to what I said two posts up. I'm not against teaching GPS to Student Pilots. In fact, if there's one in the plane on the practical test, the FAA requires that the trainee know how to use it. However, I strongly oppose teaching Students any electronic nav means until they have mastered the fundamentals of navigation -- time, heading, and distance. Until they can get from A to B with nothing but compass, clock, airspeed, and sectional, they aren't ready to start learning the use of electronic navigation systems to support (not replace) their basic DR/pilotage nav methods.

BTW, the military does the same at navigator schools -- first DR/pilotage, then the rest. My first flight at NFO training was in the back seat of a T-34 flying around the Florida panhandle at 1500 AGL with a sectional in my hand (well, really a TPC, but it's pretty much the same thing) and a stopwatch hung around my neck.

 

[ScottM]

Let me follow on to what I said two posts up. I'm not against teaching GPS to Student Pilots..

I thought that was pretty clear from your first post. That is why I was puzzled at the post from tdrager and went back and read the whole thread. I still am not sure where he is getting his conclusion from.

The way you teach is what I experienced from my CFIs as well. My first solo XC was flown with DR, return was via VORs, long XC was allowed to use GPS but only for one leg. Each leg required a different nav technique.