Another student pilot wanders into DC airspace.

i enjoy pilotage and DR. and i dont really leave home without my flight computer.
 
SCCutler said:
I know a hot-rod pilot (active here, too), flies high-zoot hardware, all the toys, and when in VMC he always has a sectional on his lap, tracking progress. This is something I admit I'd sort-of stopped doing lately. Good reminder, you're one glitch away from no GPS.

Poor VFR flight planning, or poor instruction, or both, to get that far off on a dead-reckoning flight.
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
Charts? We don't need no stinkin charts! Actually, for my runs to 6Y9 and back, I'm luck to have a green book with me, and no I don't need the GPS. Then again, pretty hard to get lost around here.
Click to expand...

Fly IFR in the Northeast, and you'll get a full route clearance on airways. And typically a "direct" to an intersection somewhere along the way.

Summertime, haze is heavy making VFR harder.

Chart: essential, even with a GPS.
 
According to this article, he planned KGED-S37. To end up at KGAI he'd have had to first get about 90 degrees off heading!! And he'd already flown the same route the other way, the same day!! What the...?!


http://www.whptv.com/mostpopular/st...es-Restricted-D-C/0rC-8pGdHEqU141cE0dqww.cspx

And if I were making that planned flight by pilotage and DR alone, my "you'd better see this at some point, and it had better be to your left!" waypoint would be the three huge bridges at the mouth of the Chesapeake... about halfway along that course line, and near the edge of the 60-mile zone. Really easy to see, even in "haze". He clearly should have asked for help right away, or at least realized "Gee, I seem to be heading west instead of north/northwest... isn't there some big thing I'm supposed to avoid to the west?" Cripes, at least make a 180 and backtrack until you pick up something you can identify...!
Embarrassing to ask ATC for help, maybe, but not as bad as what happened to him.

Sometimes I think students should not be allowed to use GPS until they've successfully completed their first solo XC... this guy was obviously leaning on it heavily, possibly even more than the instructor realized. This story is a great example of why you can't let your basic nav skills atrophy because "GPS never fails". Forget whiz wheels, and charts, even- this guy didn't even seem to have a grip on the cardinal compass directions! That's Day One stuff for VFR nav... :dunno:
 
Last edited:
Gotta wonder if he even asked for flight-following. Bet not.

"use all tools available..."
 
BigAL said:
Don't hang the CFI, IMHO, he wasn't PIC. Student screw'd up, it's his arse.
Click to expand...
The instructor is responsible for his/her student's performance. In teaching XC operations to Student Pilots, the instructor must confirm that the student can navigate without anything but a map, a clock, and airspeed indicator, and a compass. The GPS stuff should be taught only when pilotage/DR is mastered, and for solo XC's, the GPS should be for emergency use only. In this case, it appears the GPS was the student's primary nav, and s/he was unable to revert to pilotage/DR when necessary, or even detect the enormity of the error (i.e., ending up on the wrong side of the Chesapeake Bay). So if I'm investigating this occurrence, the first person on the hot seat is going to be the CFI(s) involved, and I'm going to be looking really hard at the student's logbook to see exactly what XC nav training was accomplished.

Also, as an instructor technique for the first solo XC, I encourage instructors to send their students on a route that was previously flown dual, and to leave the "totally new and different" until after the student makes it out and back over a previously flown route.

The student must learn some on his own, and to take the first solo near DC? :loco:
Click to expand...
Smoketown to Georgetown and back isn't very close to the DC SFRA 30-mile ring.
 
No GPS usage allowed for any of my primary students. After the check ride, I can't much stop them.
 
Ron Levy said:
USA Today also said the student was on his first solo XC. Since Smoketown to Delaware doesn't go that close to the SFRA, this student had to be WAY off course (like on the wrong side of the Chesapeake Bay) and didn't realize it. If the report of what happened is accurate (lost GPS, then got totally lost), I smell a 709 ride for any instructors whose signatures are in that student's logbook approving either solo XC or that particular flight's planning.
Click to expand...
+1,000,000

For a student's first solo cross country, the "best practice" as followed by all the flight schools I'm familiar with is to fly the route as a dual cross country, with special emphasis on pilotage and lost procedures. Then there is an in-person pre-flight meeting before the flight is dispatched where all the flight planning and weather briefing is reviewed, and the endorsement for that particular flight is made.

If (again, IF) this is as reported the instructor has some serious 'splaining to do.
 
By the way, thanks to the CFI's for chiming in with their perspective. It is quite interesting to see.
 
TMetzinger said:
+1,000,000

For a student's first solo cross country, the "best practice" as followed by all the flight schools I'm familiar with is to fly the route as a dual cross country, with special emphasis on pilotage and lost procedures. Then there is an in-person pre-flight meeting before the flight is dispatched where all the flight planning and weather briefing is reviewed, and the endorsement for that particular flight is made.

If (again, IF) this is as reported the instructor has some serious 'splaining to do.
Click to expand...

Going to really depend on the student and how well he knows the area - even if only from the ground. Granted its a bit easier out here. Everything is square, and there's big water on 3 sides.
 
Ron Levy said:
The instructor is responsible for his/her student's performance. In teaching XC operations to Student Pilots, the instructor must confirm that the student can navigate without anything but a map, a clock, and airspeed indicator, and a compass. The GPS stuff should be taught only when pilotage/DR is mastered, and for solo XC's, the GPS should be for emergency use only. In this case, it appears the GPS was the student's primary nav, and s/he was unable to revert to pilotage/DR when necessary, or even detect the enormity of the error (i.e., ending up on the wrong side of the Chesapeake Bay). So if I'm investigating this occurrence, the first person on the hot seat is going to be the CFI(s) involved, and I'm going to be looking really hard at the student's logbook to see exactly what XC nav training was accomplished.

Also, as an instructor technique for the first solo XC, I encourage instructors to send their students on a route that was previously flown dual, and to leave the "totally new and different" until after the student makes it out and back over a previously flown route.

Smoketown to Georgetown and back isn't very close to the DC SFRA 30-mile ring.
Click to expand...

I assume that the CFI has 1/2 a brain wouldn't teach xc on a gps. If s/he made it to CFI, guess'n they know the reliability of electronics. I'm also going by what I know, I'm a student and doing my first dual xc tomorrow. I just got done plot'n/chart'n all the bs that most everyone hasn't done since training.(for some reason I enjoy it :dunno:) Ok, back to my point. As a student, I'm check'n and double check'n everything.

Now that I think of it, if the dumb sob student was that far off, then couldn't the CFI know that this guy didn't know his heading from his ...

But still, PIC is PIC and we need to blame on those who do the act.

I guess I still blame the student, but I do see your point...I just dont agree.:D:cheerswine:
 
IMHO if the student is learning in an aircraft with a GPS then prior to sign off they should have had training and demonstrated competence with that piece of equipment prior to the solo XC.
 
BigAL said:
I assume that the CFI has 1/2 a brain wouldn't teach xc on a gps.
Click to expand...
Based on my experience doing advanced training, that's a bad assumption.
If s/he made it to CFI, guess'n they know the reliability of electronics. I'm also going by what I know, I'm a student and doing my first dual xc tomorrow. I just got done plot'n/chart'n all the bs that most everyone hasn't done since training.(for some reason I enjoy it :dunno:) Ok, back to my point. As a student, I'm check'n and double check'n everything.
Click to expand...
Good -- seems you've got a better instructor than the student in question did.
Now that I think of it, if the dumb sob student was that far off, then couldn't the CFI know that this guy didn't know his heading from his ...
Click to expand...
The instructor should indeed have known that.
But still, PIC is PIC and we need to blame on those who do the act.
Click to expand...
If an improperly trained puppy pees on the carpet, you blame the trainer, not the puppy.
I guess I still blame the student, but I do see your point...I just dont agree.:D:cheerswine:
Click to expand...
That's your privilege, but I suspect that your opinion will change as you gain aviation experience, and especially if you become an instructor. In any event, I expect the FAA will hold the instructor accountable if they feel the instructor did not adequately train the student before turning the student loose on a solo XC -- it's happened before.
 
So, if you want to limit a student pilots use of GPS so that they develop the skills to rely on other nav. methods what do you do with one that has just bought a plane with a G1000 in it and wants to learn in his new plane? Can you turn off the nav part and use only what would be equivalent to the steam gauges?
 
Ron Levy said:
USA Today also said the student was on his first solo XC. Since Smoketown to Delaware doesn't go that close to the SFRA, this student had to be WAY off course (like on the wrong side of the Chesapeake Bay) and didn't realize it. If the report of what happened is accurate (lost GPS, then got totally lost), I smell a 709 ride for any instructors whose signatures are in that student's logbook approving either solo XC or that particular flight's planning.
Click to expand...


AMEN!! No excuses. None. This student was not taught enough, nor prepped enough, for this flight. Period.

(As a side note, it was pretty hazy here in the MidAtlantic today, below maybe 4000. Still +20vis, but hazy.)
 
The pilots of Smoketown have already cost us enough of our precious liberties.....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 709 the CFI.
 
bbchien said:
The pilots of Smoketown have already cost us enough of our precious liberties.....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 709 the CFI.
Click to expand...

OMG! You think it's Martin's CFI, too?

We need to wipe out that hazard to aviation!
 
SkyHog said:
If true, that CFI needs to be hung by his nuts and never allowed to teach again.

How do you approve a flight plan with iffy weather towards D.C. for a student pilot?
Click to expand...

Amen. Why would any instructor do this to a student on his first x-country. He should of sent him North, not much trouble up that way, and if he got lost all he would have needed to do was head west, pick up the Susquahanna and take it home.
 
No GPS when I flew in the Army and later in the Guard, but I have to admit, did get low enough to read water towers a few times and used the ADF a couple times to get a direction to somewhere. Once flew the ADC on a weekend. Didn't know where he was going. I had maps from the airport East; turned out he was going west. But, where he was going had a great country western radio station we could tune in from pretty far off. He enjoyed the music on the intercom; I appreciated the steer. No TFRs back then. I also called Ashville approach when I got within range. They seemed to be used to Guard helos that need a little directional help.

Sometimes, one has to improvise.

So maybe they need to paint more water towers with big letters 'round there <g>

Best,

Dave
 
wsuffa said:
Gotta wonder if he even asked for flight-following. Bet not.

"use all tools available..."
Click to expand...

True, but we gotta remember what it was like to be a student -- things not going exactly as planned, haze making it more difficult to pick out the correct landmarks, the stress goes up, and bingo - revert to fight or flight mode and most logic goes out the window! I know I felt that stress a few times in my training.
 
swingwing said:
Amen. Why would any instructor do this to a student on his first x-country. He should of sent him North, not much trouble up that way, and if he got lost all he would have needed to do was head west, pick up the Susquahanna and take it home.
Click to expand...

True, true...

My guess (only a guess!) is the student to stay over flat terrain to avoid the bumps and inevitable afternoon cumulus heading north and west from Smoketown.


At least the news interviewed one pilot with a clue: (http://www.whptv.com/news/local/sto...es-Restricted-D-C/0rC-8pGdHEqU141cE0dqww.cspx)
Another pilot, who spoke to CBS 21 News while he was refueling his plane at the Smoketown Airport, said that even if the pilot was inexperienced, he should have known better. The man, who did not want to give his name but said he had been a pilot for 20 years, said there is a required online course for pilots who operate within 60 nautical miles of Washington, and that that includes Smoketown.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
smigaldi said:
My first solo XC was to the same exact place of my dual XC. Same plan so I had already gotten used to the route. If I was a CFI I would follow that model of doing XCs. Now my long XC for private was to a bunch of places I had never been to before so that was an eye opener, but I had gotten confidence from doing that previous solo XC.
Click to expand...

Mine, too. And a route where if the student can get lost he should spend his disposable income on something else.

SCCutler said:
I know a hot-rod pilot (active here, too), flies high-zoot hardware, all the toys, and when in VMC he always has a sectional on his lap, tracking progress. This is something I admit I'd sort-of stopped doing lately. Good reminder, you're one glitch away from no GPS.
Click to expand...

When my wife is with me she has the sectional in her lap with her finger where she thinks we are. GPS couldn't do better. And she isn't a pilot. I have the low altitude enroute in my lap and I'm tracking where we are flying the Victor airways. VFR.

Ron Levy said:
Also, as an instructor technique for the first solo XC, I encourage instructors to send their students on a route that was previously flown dual, and to leave the "totally new and different" until after the student makes it out and back over a previously flown route.
Click to expand...

My CFI's technique, too. Made it easier for the student.

TMetzinger said:
For a student's first solo cross country, the "best practice" as followed by all the flight schools I'm familiar with is to fly the route as a dual cross country, with special emphasis on pilotage and lost procedures. Then there is an in-person pre-flight meeting before the flight is dispatched where all the flight planning and weather briefing is reviewed, and the endorsement for that particular flight is made.

If (again, IF) this is as reported the instructor has some serious 'splaining to do.
Click to expand...

Again, my CFI used the first dual XC route for my first solo XC. And his standard was OLM to KLS. 51 nm. Use checkpoints along the way, or simply follow I-5. It runs past both airports. As I noted above, if you can get lost on this route on a clear day, you really need to do something else with your time and money.

And, GPS? Not in that 172 at the time. There's a 430 in the panel now, but when I was a student the only plane in the club with GPS was the Arrow, and students couldn't (and can't) fly it. Now there's no GPS in half of our planes, the C-172H and the C-182P.
 
At least they didn't evacuate a bunch of screaming sissies from out government offices this time around, so we're getting smarter as a nation....

Worst case scenario, you get this:
008_frank_corder_cessna2050081722-8489.jpg
 
mikea said:
OMG! You think it's Martin's CFI, too?
Click to expand...
Martin's CFI was not an issue -- he was a passenger. The instructor of concern in that one is the one who signed Shaffer's flight review a couple of weeks before the incident after 10 years out of flying.
 
swingwing said:
Amen. Why would any instructor do this to a student on his first x-country. He should of sent him North, not much trouble up that way, and if he got lost all he would have needed to do was head west, pick up the Susquahanna and take it home.
Click to expand...
What would you suggest an instructor at Easton MD (KESN) do? Or Ridgley (KRJD) or Laurel or Georgetown (KGED)? In any event, the path chosen was a long way from the SFRA, and on the other side of the Bay. It doesn't get much easier than that to stay out of the SFRA.
 
BenZwebner said:
I got a solution for yah!

Take the data card out of the 430 and put it in the envelope!
Click to expand...
...and don't teach the student that the 430 works just fine without it...all ya gotta do is program a lat/long fix, and punch the "direct" button...

...or read the lat/long position off the GPS and plot it on the chart...

...or...:thumbsup:

BigAL said:
I assume that the CFI has 1/2 a brain wouldn't teach xc on a gps. If s/he made it to CFI, guess'n they know the reliability of electronics. I'm also going by what I know, I'm a student and doing my first dual xc tomorrow. I just got done plot'n/chart'n all the bs that most everyone hasn't done since training.(for some reason I enjoy it :dunno:) Ok, back to my point. As a student, I'm check'n and double check'n everything.

Now that I think of it, if the dumb sob student was that far off, then couldn't the CFI know that this guy didn't know his heading from his ...

But still, PIC is PIC and we need to blame on those who do the act.

I guess I still blame the student, but I do see your point...I just dont agree.:D:cheerswine:
Click to expand...
I agree 100% with Ron's replies.

Jeanie said:
So, if you want to limit a student pilots use of GPS so that they develop the skills to rely on other nav. methods what do you do with one that has just bought a plane with a G1000 in it and wants to learn in his new plane? Can you turn off the nav part and use only what would be equivalent to the steam gauges?
Click to expand...
You can turn off the whole thing, and show 'em the whiskey compass and standby altimeter...:D
 
Ron Levy said:
What would you suggest an instructor at Easton MD (KESN) do? Or Ridgley (KRJD) or Laurel or Georgetown (KGED)? In any event, the path chosen was a long way from the SFRA, and on the other side of the Bay. It doesn't get much easier than that to stay out of the SFRA.
Click to expand...

This isn't really about the SFRA, because there are few routes from Smoketown you can take without blundering into some sort of controlled airspace if you don't know where you are and where you're headed.

This will all come out in the wash eventually, but a 709 ride for the CFI would be a gracious act. If any student of mine gets that puckered after I sign off his/her solo, I'll plan on it, period.

That early in the program, even if I'm not in the airplane, my voice is what the student is hearing in his/her head. And when he got blundering lost he should have been hearing in his head something I said a few hundred times, "So -- what do you do when you're lost?"
 
Ghery said:
When my wife is with me she has the sectional in her lap with her finger where she thinks we are.
Click to expand...

The original Digital Moving Map technology.

Again, my CFI used the first dual XC route for my first solo XC. And his standard was OLM to KLS. 51 nm. Use checkpoints along the way, or simply follow I-5. It runs past both airports. As I noted above, if you can get lost on this route on a clear day, you really need to do something else with your time and money.
Click to expand...

LOL...

My first cross country was (what is now) VLL to BAX - no freeway to follow but if you overran BAX having everything under you turn from green to blue should tell you something is wrong. I didn't think to ask about stopping at 66G for a chicken dinner, but that's another thread...
 
Ron Levy said:
Based on my experience doing advanced training, that's a bad assumption.
Good -- seems you've got a better instructor than the student in question did.
The instructor should indeed have known that.
If an improperly trained puppy pees on the carpet, you blame the trainer, not the puppy.
That's your privilege, but I suspect that your opinion will change as you gain aviation experience, and especially if you become an instructor. In any event, I expect the FAA will hold the instructor accountable if they feel the instructor did not adequately train the student before turning the student loose on a solo XC -- it's happened before.
Click to expand...

Ok, I really can't argue w/what you've said. I will agree cause I'm a "puppy" and I really don't want to pee on the floor.:D I do have a good CFI, and I've done a bit more study'n than most(from what I have heard).

You broke me down Ron, you are right......and I am wrong. First time I've ever been wrong.:rolleyes2:;):D
 
bbchien said:
The pilots of Smoketown have already cost us enough of our precious liberties.....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 709 the CFI.
Click to expand...

HEY there now, there are some of us from Smoketown that do know how to navigate.

And, yes, it was the same plane. From the same club. Different CFI though.

I have to admit, it seems awfully difficult to miss going over the Bay into the SFRA. I am trying to wrap my mind around what could possibly go through someone's head when they see a giant body of water that they did not cross to get there, and have it take as long as it did to cross(let's face it, it was a mighty 150!), and not come to the conclusion that you might have made a wrong turn.
 
Last edited:
smigaldi said:
Not when it comes to letter order ;)
jus' kidding. :D:D:cheerswine:

What is the good word from Smoketown about this incident??
Click to expand...
Sorry, fingers get ahead of the brain. Happens in the plane, too.

Smoketown has been in the press far too much lately. I think they would prefer to hide in the shadows right now. Between these two incidents and the smuggling episode, you would think Smoketown was a major city.
 
Aztec Driver said:
...I have to admit, it seems awfully difficult to miss going over the Bay into the SFRA. I am trying to wrap my mind around what could possibly go through someone's head when they see a giant body of water that they did not cross to get there, and have it take as long as it did to cross(let's face it, it was a mighty 150!), and not come to the conclusion that you might have made a wrong turn.
Click to expand...

I can imagine there's no timer on the length of near-catatonic-state panic time you're allowed to have when you think you're going to die.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top