dtuuri
Final Approach
FWIW, I think it's imperative to slow to below 180 kts within the last ten miles, five for sure, at uncontrolled fields (btw, they ARE "uncontrolled"). Anything faster offers too little time to see and avoid, imo.
Another radio calls thread
- Thread starter Wagondriver
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When both planes are on final, the wind will not affect the closure rate.
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Kayoh@190
I might get switched just outside the FAF, but you can bet that I've been monitoring the CTAF much earlier on a different radio. If I'm waiting until inside of 10 miles to figure out where all the traffic in the pattern might be, I haven't been doing my job. I don't see how an ATITPPA call does anything but tie up CTAF long enough for me to say it.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think I wrote about this before, but I had this type of situation in the pattern at Laconia. I had just taken off and was staying in the pattern. About 200 feet above the runway I hear a guy with a thick accent say that he was 10 miles out, 5,000 feet entering the downwind, he was a jet. So I announce that I had just departed and turned crosswind for the left downwind, fat, dumb and happy. The thick accent guy said something to me, I didn't understand, I said "say again" so another guy comes on says he's now 5 miles away and asked my location. I was still on the crosswind. At that point I realized this wasn't going to work, so I told him about to turn downwind, but I would turn through the downwind, back over the field and get out of his way. He thanked me, I turned, watched him zip by and land.
That was a wake up call for me, now if I hear a jet coming in at an uncontrolled airfield, I let them know where I am and if it makes sense for me to move I do. Otherwise I'll tell them where I am and what I'm doing.
****** Disclaimer the distances here may not be accurate, but the timing was close and the pucker factor was real. lol
dtuuri
Final Approach
Are you sure?
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
And conversely?
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Agreed, but in my experience that doesn't always happen.
You're right about the speed limit in general. I guess I got used to thinking of it as 200 because I'm based under class B airspace.
Most of them fly slower on final, don't they?
Yes.
I don't understand the question.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think when they are on final the situation is probably the easiest to figure out and deal with. In my experience it's when they are on a visual approach from the opposite direction is when it can get a little daunting.
I will say that I've ended up in or near the pattern quite a few times with jets nearby and they have always been cordial and accommodating.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Fastest Vref I’ve used normally (full flaps) is about 140 knots. But that’s over the end of the runway. Anything faster than that is fair game, including 250 knots to a 5-mile final or so, depending upon conditions. Some pilots fly slow enough all the way down to have an AT-6 doing S-turns behind them (DAMHIK), and some fly as fast as they can.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
When they are flying downwind on a visual when the wind is blowing, they are descending and another airplane is flying opposite the closure rate can be impressive.
dtuuri
Final Approach
The time to close will be the same, but the closure will take place sooner than later in terms of distance, which is what I think Paul meant.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
This, and it's a good thing when we pilots with no jet experience understand this and it's potential impact to us when we are flying around jets. In my example above I related to a jet using my piston experiences. It was not in my mind that a jet is probably travelling almost three times faster than most piston traffic near the airport. That will never happen again to me.
That’s when you key up the mic and say, “I have no idea where that fix is,” and keep trucking along.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think it's important, especially on VFR days, to remember the jet you hear may not be on final, he may be on a visual, anywhere on the compass including upwind from you, looking to enter a downwind.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Lowflynjack
En-Route
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Jack Fleetwood
Calling in from 10 miles out is in the AIM as a recommended call, 5 miles is not. When flying this weekend and listening to calls on a very busy frequency, I thought about the calls that I make that aren't recommended but I like to make.
My calls are typically, 10 miles out and direction, sometimes 5 miles out and direction, 45 to downwind, downwind, base, final, and clear of the runway.
The AIM recommends 10 miles out, entering downwind, base, final and 'leaving' the runway.
In my opinion, which the FAA didn't ask for, there's a lot of time in some planes between 10 miles out and downwind. However, when I choose not to follow the standard, it makes it hard to complain when other people make what I think are useless calls. My girlfriend is learning to fly and her instructor made a call that he was 5 to the North and entering on the circle approach... thanks... now tell me what the hell that means.
Or to put it another way, the time to close hasn't changed, but the time you're in the air has changed (which is why I said "closure rate" and not "distance to closure").
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
I call out " Peachsomething Airport, Cessna XYZ is 5 miles northwest, 3500 feet will cross runway midfield to the south, teardrop to enter right hand runway 13 Peachsomething."
Then I announce "Peachwhatnot, Cessna XYX crossing midfield to the south Peachplace " "Peachy, Cessna XZY Entering pattern for right hand runway 13, Peaches" "Peach, Cessna XYZ Entering Base right hand runway 13, Peaching" " PeachPie, Cessna Xyz Entering Final for 13, PeachPit".
I figure that should be enough to let people know where to find me.
BTW - lot of peach named things around these parts of Georgia.
Then I announce "Peachwhatnot, Cessna XYX crossing midfield to the south Peachplace " "Peachy, Cessna XZY Entering pattern for right hand runway 13, Peaches" "Peach, Cessna XYZ Entering Base right hand runway 13, Peaching" " PeachPie, Cessna Xyz Entering Final for 13, PeachPit".
I figure that should be enough to let people know where to find me.
BTW - lot of peach named things around these parts of Georgia.
Yes, the closure rate is much higher when they are headed towards each other, but it's still not affected by the wind (assuming uniform wind over the area).
sourdough44
En-Route
Just like on the FISKE arrival, it’s always the OTHER pilot that’s screwed up & can’t follow the rules.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Lol, I know, both are in the same air mass, but if I'm at pattern altitude and the jet 4,000 feet above there can be a significant difference in wind speed.... or not.
My response "I fly in high winds" was a tongue in cheek response your speed calculations a while back. Like anything frame of reference is important. Both AC on final, then the closure is the difference of the two aircraft ground speeds. One upwind and one downwind pointed at each other, then the the closure rate is the sum of the ground speed of both AC, which can be impressive.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
The problem is sometimes the rules don't help.
Larry in TN
En-Route
My record for VTarget (speed flown from 1000' down) in the 737 is 165 KIAS. It was a very windy, gusty day so the wind additive was maxed out. Normal is in the mid-140s to mid-150s. If I'm flying a traffic pattern at a non-towered airport I'll likely be slowed to 180 KIAS. Normal, would be 210 on downwind, 190 on base, and 170 on final until slowing to VTarget. At larger airports, I'm far enough out, or high enough, that the 200 KIAS limit isn't a factor.
It can be difficult to listen to CTAF more than 10 miles out as we're much higher, at that time, and can pickup traffic on the same frequency at a lot of other airports.
If nothing else, make sure your transponder is on when you hear a jet in the pattern. That way we'll see you and get TCAS resolution advisories if we get too close to you.
It can be difficult to listen to CTAF more than 10 miles out as we're much higher, at that time, and can pickup traffic on the same frequency at a lot of other airports.
If nothing else, make sure your transponder is on when you hear a jet in the pattern. That way we'll see you and get TCAS resolution advisories if we get too close to you.
champ driver
Line Up and Wait
I haven't heard that phrase in years until just last night. We were first in a line of 7 jets all bound for KSTP, St Paul MN. These guys were faster so it was keep the speed up until about 3 miles out on right base. The Falcon right behind us said it as we were about to turn off the runway. He knew we were there as did all of the others behind us all in a tightly spaced line. The tower was closed for the night and all of were vectored for a right base to the runway.
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Fisk. The name of the town is Fisk (no E), Wisconsin.
At the speed of my plane, if I called 10 miles out people would forget about me and everybody in the pattern would be on the ground before I enter downwind.
But jets aren't an issue at the airports I frequent.
When I learned to fly, calling Unicom to request airport advisory or even just "what's your winds and active" was taught. I can't remember the last time I heard anybody asking for "airport advisory". But of course AWOS/ASOS didn't exist then...
Wagondriver
Line Up and Wait
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375Taylor
Why the annoyance?
1. I expect proper phraseology and a position report that means something from a “professional “.
2. A position report without an altitude, or other necessary information is useless.
3. A position report without noting which airport is also worthless.
It’s usually pretty easy to tell when it’s a student, or someone lacking confidence, I expect botched radio calls from them, not someone who has done many hundreds or thousands of hours of flying, with numerous check rides under their belt. Maybe I’m being unrealistic to expect more?
And, no, not every call I make is perfect. But, I try to learn a little more about flying every time I go up.
1. I expect proper phraseology and a position report that means something from a “professional “.
2. A position report without an altitude, or other necessary information is useless.
3. A position report without noting which airport is also worthless.
It’s usually pretty easy to tell when it’s a student, or someone lacking confidence, I expect botched radio calls from them, not someone who has done many hundreds or thousands of hours of flying, with numerous check rides under their belt. Maybe I’m being unrealistic to expect more?
And, no, not every call I make is perfect. But, I try to learn a little more about flying every time I go up.
sourdough44
En-Route
Yes I knew the town didn’t have the ‘e’, my GPS needs the e though. I’ll try to leave it off. The Notam booklet does call it the ‘Fisk Arrival’.
Jakl15
Pre-Flight
Groundpounder
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Emerson Bigguns
I hate flying the work airplane into small uncontrolled fields, because of all of the above. And when I do, I hope that it's low IFR to keep the weekend warriors on the ground.
I never say "any traffic...." but some of you guys griping about faster airplanes in the traffic pattern should see it from our perspective sometime. You'd be surprised.
I never say "any traffic...." but some of you guys griping about faster airplanes in the traffic pattern should see it from our perspective sometime. You'd be surprised.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not griping, but I do think it's a good idea for instructors to talk to primary students about patterns and traffic that is faster than you. Specifically that the jet is going 2 to sometimes 3 times faster than most trainers, so when a jet calls in from 8 miles out he will be there much faster than a trainer calling from 8 miles out. Seems like common sense, but sometimes that's not enough.
I don't ever recall having that conversation with my instructors beyond what to do about wake turbulence.
Deelee
Pattern Altitude
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Deelee
I agree with this. I sort of figured it out through experience, but it would be good to let students know more about how non-VFR traffic works in general. Especially jet traffic. I fly out of a towered field, so this doesn't happen often. But when I'm in the pattern somewhere else and I hear something much faster than me coming in, I'll extend dw and give way or delay my entry into the pattern.
keen9
Pre-takeoff checklist
I haven't read any post that griped about fast planes. The gripes are about some jet pilots who chose to make up their own procedures for CTAF.
At my previous airline, our FOM suggested that we don’t call out miles. Instead, use minutes out because we are doing like 2.5 miles per minute as opposed to a a piston doing a mile a minute