Another radio calls thread

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Wagondriver

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I was out flying today, near a non-towered field. It’s that time of year when we get overflow traffic from the resort airports, so there were a quite few jets coming in. Some of the private jet guys are great on the radio, and some not so much.
I am instrument rated, so I have a pretty good idea of what is going, but, I am not familiar with all the approaches. The non instrument rated pilots probably have little idea of where the traffic is likely to be and at what altitude. Calling the squat 4 departure doesn’t tell vfr pilots anything, except that you are taking off runway 26. Calling out that you are on the ils runway 26, also does not help much. Calling a 15 mile final is also kind of annoying, especially when there is no altitude given in the call. I really don’t understand why so many of the private jet pilots, and even some airliners use the very annoying phrase “any traffic in the area please advise”! Especially when they don’t call out the airport at the end of their transmission, almost every airport around here is 122.8.
It seems like the private jet pilots forget that there are lots of little slow airplanes out flying on a calm winter morning.
 
One of our resident charter jet guys can tell you why guys like him are too busy to listen to the freq before blasting into the runway so it’s important for everyone else to communicate. Personally, I think atitppa is code for “here I come, get out of my way”
 
Wagondriver said:
I really don’t understand why so many of the private jet pilots, and even some airliners use the very annoying phrase “any traffic in the area please advise”!
...there are lots of little slow airplanes out flying on a calm winter morning.
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Have you answered your own question there? I've been reading these complaints for years now. Why all the mocking? Although I don't remember ever saying it myself as a "private jet pilot", I can see why one might and perhaps I even have forgotten myself. Picture coming up fast on a sleepy little rural airport early in the AM, straight-in, weighing whether to circle or not. If somebody is turning base, the answer would be yes. Someone on crosswind, not so much. Jets are expensive to operate. Asking for a quick snapshot of the traffic situation, if any, helps one decide. So, tell me why all the "annoyance".
 
DPs by and large are meaningless as traffic calls. There are darn few that will result in the aircraft not still being pretty much on a straight out as far as VFR pattern conflicts, so these don't harm much more than the inane "last call" announcement (which always makes me want to either answer "you promise?" or order a drink.

Calling in from some distance out actually is in the AIM as a recommended call. Inbounds are useful as long as they make sensible location to the airport. 5 miles out on the straight-in is more useful than some IFR-related fix, or some inane and inaccurate overhead break nomenclature.
 
CTAFs around here are so clogged with useless calls, bad phraseology, long-winded pilots, pilots who use uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh after every word, pilots who like to ask if their pals are up... "billy bob! You up??", bad or useless position calls - "cessna 123sp is 6.7 miles to the northwest... no north by northwest inbound full stop landing.... no now 6.6 miles northwest going to enter a 52.4 degree entry for the left downwind runway 22..", pilots blocking out other pilots causing ear piercing screams in my headset..... why not go ahead and pile on ATITPPA on top of the whole mess. If you can't already tell there are 8 students in slow 172s flying various legs in the pattern, 4 helos doing all kinds of crazy entries and taxiway takeoffs, 3 Mooneys already doing straight in-s, 2 RVs doing overhead breaks cutting off everyone, and a Bonanza at the hold short line bitching about how long it is taking for him to take off (then using the term taking the runway.... where are you taking it anyway??)......... I mean why not call ATITPPA.. You are just gonna be blocked by some pre-solo student who can't figure out he needs to let go of the PTT after barging in on freq and calling the wrong base turn.. left... no right base.... no crosswind!! .... and please stop the heavy, nervous breathing in the mic as you continue to depress the button..... ahhhhhahggggggg.... This is why I like my home field. It has a tower full of nice, friendly controllers.
 
Deelee said:
CTAFs around here are so clogged with useless calls, bad phraseology, long-winded pilots, pilots who use uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh after every word, pilots who like to ask if their pals are up... "billy bob! You up??", bad or useless position calls - "cessna 123sp is 6.7 miles to the northwest... no north by northwest inbound full stop landing.... no now 6.6 miles northwest going to enter a 52.4 degree entry for the left downwind runway 22..", pilots blocking out other pilots causing ear piercing screams in my headset..... why not go ahead and pile on ATITPPA on top of the whole mess. If you can't already tell there are 8 students in slow 172s flying various legs in the pattern, 4 helos doing all kinds of crazy entries and taxiway takeoffs, 3 Mooneys already doing straight in-s, 2 RVs doing overhead breaks cutting off everyone, and a Bonanza at the hold short line bitching about how long it is taking for him to take off (then using the term taking the runway.... where are you taking it anyway??)......... I mean why not call ATITPPA.. You are just gonna be blocked by some pre-solo student who can't figure out he needs to let go of the PTT after barging in on freq and calling the wrong base turn.. left... no right base.... no crosswind!! .... and please stop the heavy, nervous breathing in the mic as you continue to depress the button..... ahhhhhahggggggg.... This is why I like my home field. It has a tower full of nice, friendly controllers.
Click to expand...
Now THAT was a righteous rant!
 
dtuuri said:
Have you answered your own question there? I've been reading these complaints for years now. Why all the mocking? Although I don't remember ever saying it myself as a "private jet pilot", I can see why one might and perhaps I even have forgotten myself. Picture coming up fast on a sleepy little rural airport early in the AM, straight-in, weighing whether to circle or not. If somebody is turning base, the answer would be yes. Someone on crosswind, not so much. Jets are expensive to operate. Asking for a quick snapshot of the traffic situation, if any, helps one decide. So, tell me why all the "annoyance".
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ATITAPA runs the risk that everyone in the pattern will answer at the same time, blocking each other's transmissions. Simply making a position report would be better, because anyone who is in a position to pose a risk of conflict will know that they are the one who needs to speak up.
 
Wagondriver said:
I was out flying today, near a non-towered field. It’s that time of year when we get overflow traffic from the resort airports, so there were a quite few jets coming in. Some of the private jet guys are great on the radio, and some not so much.
I am instrument rated, so I have a pretty good idea of what is going, but, I am not familiar with all the approaches. The non instrument rated pilots probably have little idea of where the traffic is likely to be and at what altitude. Calling the squat 4 departure doesn’t tell vfr pilots anything, except that you are taking off runway 26. Calling out that you are on the ils runway 26, also does not help much. Calling a 15 mile final is also kind of annoying, especially when there is no altitude given in the call. I really don’t understand why so many of the private jet pilots, and even some airliners use the very annoying phrase “any traffic in the area please advise”! Especially when they don’t call out the airport at the end of their transmission, almost every airport around here is 122.8.
It seems like the private jet pilots forget that there are lots of little slow airplanes out flying on a calm winter morning.
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Come up to Ottawa or the province of Quebec, and you'll get all that in two different languages. At an uncontrolled airport in Quebec, you might hear only French-language position reports on the radio (I make mine in both good English and bad French in those situations, which guarantees that everyone politely clears the circuit to let the crazy anglophone land first --- "You know what, I just decided I'd like to go and orbit 3 miles from the airfield for 10 minutes to get a closer look at a cow. You're number one now. Bonne journée!" ;) ).
 
dtuuri said:
Asking for a quick snapshot of the traffic situation, if any, helps one decide. So, tell me why all the "annoyance".
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This reads as: "I'm a big fast expensive jet, so I don't have to follow the AIM like the rest of you; I need special treatment".
 
Back before the AIM said not to use phrases such as 'any traffic in the area...', It was more common. One airline, Great Lakes, actually required their pilots to use it in their flight operations manual. Hopefully, we're past all that by now.
 
Palmpilot said:
ATITAPA runs the risk that everyone in the pattern will answer at the same time, blocking each other's transmissions. Simply making a position report would be better, because anyone who is in a position to pose a risk of conflict will know that they are the one who needs to speak up.
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But under those conditions I wouldn't expect a jet pilot to say it. I'd understand saying it if the radio was silent and there isn't a lot of time to wait for someone to speak up. Even a loud squeal would speak volumes.
 
keen9 said:
This reads as: "I'm a big fast expensive jet, so I don't have to follow the AIM like the rest of you; I need special treatment".
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Well, then that says more about your biases than the other pilot's, imo. Btw, where does the AIM say a jet can't make a straight-in approach or decide to circle (@TPA for any lawyers lurking) instead?
 
While we're clearing the air, I'm a "With you" guy from way back. Well, until the younger pilots started saying it, then it didn't sound as assuring anymore so I dropped it.

On the other hand, I have a peeve, too, about the phrase "Go missed". It was always "Missed approach", as though the two words were welded together. Then one day I heard a girl (unusual to hear a girl's voice in those days) tell ATC she planned to "Go missed" after the ILS and requested vectors for another approach. Now, because of the law of primacy, anytime I hear a mans voice say "Go missed"—I think he sounds like a girl. Annoying. I prefer "Execute the missed approach!" As in kill it dead.
 
dtuuri said:
But under those conditions I wouldn't expect a jet pilot to say it. I'd understand saying it if the radio was silent and there isn't a lot of time to wait for someone to speak up. Even a loud squeal would speak volumes.
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If there's not a lot of time, the relevant information would be obtained sooner when the person who is most likely to pose a conflict responds to the jet pilot's position-and-intentions report with a position-and-intentions report of his own.
 
Palmpilot said:
If there's not a lot of time, the relevant information would be obtained sooner when the person who is most likely to pose a conflict responds to the jet pilot's position-and-intentions report with a position-and-intentions report of his own.
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Would that result in less chance of blocking than asking for a response?
 
dtuuri said:
Would that result in less chance of blocking than asking for a response?
Click to expand...

Yes. I will intentionally NOT respond to "any traffic..." calls.

I will make a traffic call if someone calls their position without the "I'm too important to be bothered with listening" addendum.

And don't give me the "it's too busy" crap. I listen to 3 different frequencies at once and don't have an issue grabbing AWOS, talking to Approach and monitoring advisory.
 
Bah, I move for jets, those things move farghing fast, they are usually out of the way before you know it. Many jets calling in from 10 miles out are the equivalent of a 172 calling 2 miles out, they get there at the same time. It's easy for me to extend or delay a turn, for them not as easy. I also don't hesitate to say "I have no idea where that is" if someone calls in on a fix on an approach.
 
dtuuri said:
Would that result in less chance of blocking than asking for a response?
Click to expand...
I think it would, unless people just ignore the ATITAPA, in which case the ATITAPA would not be serving any purpose anyway.

It seems to me that the ATITAPA call just conveys that the caller needs to know where traffic is, but everyone knows that anyway as soon as he makes his position-and-intentions report. So all it does is delay receipt of relevant traffic information by the length of time it takes to say "any traffic in the area please advise." If there's "not a lot of time," that delay would seem to be non-optimal.
 
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PaulS said:
Bah, I move for jets, those things move farghing fast, they are usually out of the way before you know it. Many jets calling in from 10 miles out are the equivalent of a 172 calling 2 miles out, they get there at the same time. It's easy for me to extend or delay a turn, for them not as easy. I also don't hesitate to say "I have no idea where that is" if someone calls in on a fix on an approach.
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Same here, except that would amount to five times a 172's final approach speed, or about 325 knots. The speed limit is 200 knots, and my understanding is that final-approach speed for most jets is slower than that anyway.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think it would, unless people just ignore the ATITAPA, in which case the ATITAPA would not be serving any purpose anyway.
It seems to me that the ATITAPA call just conveys that the caller needs to know where traffic is, but everyone knows that anyway as soon as he makes his position-and-intentions report.
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Not seeing it. I'm seeing somebody getting turned over to CTAF at the FAF, VFR or marginal VFR, and preferring to land straight-in, but willing to go around the field/pattern if there's traffic. He's already at TPA and descending, so wants to know ASAP for planning purposes where or if there's traffic at the airport. Seems like a reasonable call to make that's met with a whole bunch of resistance for no particular justification. So, let's say he announces five out and every "me first" guy in the pattern, ie., everybody, grabs the mic and blocks each other. So what? The jet learned what he needs to know and goes around.
 
dtuuri said:
Not seeing it. I'm seeing somebody getting turned over to CTAF at the FAF, VFR or marginal VFR, and preferring to land straight-in, but willing to go around the field/pattern if there's traffic. He's already at TPA and descending, so wants to know ASAP for planning purposes where or if there's traffic at the airport. Seems like a reasonable call to make that's met with a whole bunch of resistance for no particular justification. So, let's say he announces five out and every "me first" guy in the pattern, ie., everybody, grabs the mic and blocks each other. So what? The jet learned what he needs to know and goes around.
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Sounds inefficient.
 
dtuuri said:
Well, then that says more about your biases than the other pilot's, imo. Btw, where does the AIM say a jet can't make a straight-in approach or decide to circle (@TPA for any lawyers lurking) instead?
Click to expand...
AIM says how to communicate on CTAF. I didn't say anything about patterns or straight-ins.
Not sure how not liking it when someone doesn't follow the rules and guidelines = bias.
 
Salty said:
I don't understand why calling your position and listening to others positions doesn't work for everyone.
Click to expand...

Entitlement mentality. Rules for everyone else but me.
 
Larry in TN said:
Back before the AIM said not to use phrases such as 'any traffic in the area...', It was more common. One airline, Great Lakes, actually required their pilots to use it in their flight operations manual. Hopefully, we're past all that by now.
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Where do you think it started? ;)
 
Salty said:
I don't understand why calling your position and listening to others positions doesn't work for everyone.
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Time constraints, I'd say. The jet crew has more to do in less time and may not be able to monitor the frequency as long as a VFR puddle jumper. In fact, it might be safer not to be distracted by doing so until turned over to CTAF if there's any chance the crew could miss an ATC call because of it. Besides, things change. What's on downwind doesn't mean anything to somebody five minutes from touchdown. Five miles at jet speeds, though, it does.
 
dtuuri said:
Time constraints, I'd say. The jet crew has more to do in less time and may not be able to monitor the frequency as long as a VFR puddle jumper. In fact, it might be safer not to be distracted by doing so until turned over to CTAF if there's any chance the crew could miss an ATC call because of it. Besides, things change. What's on downwind doesn't mean anything to somebody five minutes from touchdown. Five miles at jet speeds, though, it does.
Click to expand...
I still don't understand how saying more words (that convey nothing pilots don't already know) over the radio somehow saves them time.
 
Deelee said:
CTAFs around here are so clogged with useless calls, bad phraseology, long-winded pilots, pilots who use uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh after every word, pilots who like to ask if their pals are up... "billy bob! You up??", bad or useless position calls - "cessna 123sp is 6.7 miles to the northwest... no north by northwest inbound full stop landing.... no now 6.6 miles northwest going to enter a 52.4 degree entry for the left downwind runway 22..", pilots blocking out other pilots causing ear piercing screams in my headset..... why not go ahead and pile on ATITPPA on top of the whole mess. If you can't already tell there are 8 students in slow 172s flying various legs in the pattern, 4 helos doing all kinds of crazy entries and taxiway takeoffs, 3 Mooneys already doing straight in-s, 2 RVs doing overhead breaks cutting off everyone, and a Bonanza at the hold short line bitching about how long it is taking for him to take off (then using the term taking the runway.... where are you taking it anyway??)......... I mean why not call ATITPPA.. You are just gonna be blocked by some pre-solo student who can't figure out he needs to let go of the PTT after barging in on freq and calling the wrong base turn.. left... no right base.... no crosswind!! .... and please stop the heavy, nervous breathing in the mic as you continue to depress the button..... ahhhhhahggggggg.... This is why I like my home field. It has a tower full of nice, friendly controllers.
Click to expand...

Salty said:
Now THAT was a righteous rant!
Click to expand...

best read imagining John Belushi doing it in his SNL weekend update rant mode.
 
Salty said:
I still don't understand how saying more words (that convey nothing pilots don't already know) over the radio somehow saves them time.
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It’s all about deference to the Chinese communication process.
 
Salty said:
I don't understand why calling your position and listening to others positions doesn't work for everyone.
Click to expand...

I already liked this in your post... but I'll like it here, too.

Here's how it goes down in the DC area -

Potomac Approach Controller - "LearFalconGulfstream 99F, advisory frequency change approved. [sometimes with a reminder to cancel IFR on the ground...]"
Jet - "OkSwitchingSeeeeeeeYa."
Jet - [flips to CJR CTAF]..... [immediate screeching and squealing of blockage from several pilots from several airports trying to make calls on a jammed up freq].......
Jet - cusses under breath and keys mike .... "Culpepper Traffic, LearFalconGulfstream 99F 5 to the northeast 2000' straight in 22 culpepper"
[note there is no need to ask if there is traffic in the pattern because of the following......]
Student 1 in Cessna 172 going 80 knots crosswind in the pattern - "Um.... Culpepper traffic.... November 1234G... No, Cessna 1234G is on left base... no right base... no right crosswind in the pattern for runway 2.... no twenty two... no two two.................... Culpepper."
Jet - *thinks to self - Ok. there is a guy in the pattern. Now I know. Amazing how this works. And I didn't even have to say ATITPPA*
Also Jet - [is now at a 2 mile final since the student took so long to make that call.]
Student 2 in another, equally slow 172 - "............. um.............. Culpepper traffic...... cessssssszna 4321F is on the 45 downwind.... no 45 to the downwind..... left downwind....... runway two two inbound full stop... no inbound touch and goes.... runway two two at............ [has to take a minute to remember which airport he is approaching all the while with his finger still on the GD PTT button further tying up freq....]......... Culpepper."
Jet - [has already landed and shutting down on the ramp. Looks back on the whole encounter and just wonders how he survived by not making a call asking if there is any traffic in the pattern.]
 
Palmpilot said:
Same here, except that would amount to five times a 172's final approach speed, or about 325 knots. The speed limit is 200 knots, and my understanding is that final-approach speed for most jets is slower than that anyway.
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I fly on high wind days.
 
Salty said:
I still don't understand how saying more words (that convey nothing pilots don't already know) over the radio somehow saves them time.
Click to expand...
If the fast approaching pilot, and I assume the speed is the minimum safe speed, asks for anyone in the area to speak up it's because he hears silence and is giving anybody else who might be a factor an opportunity to have him pull off of the straight-in and let them have the right of way. At least that's what I would be thinking based on experience knowing how quickly a plane on base leg goes from "invisible" to "too close for comfort".
 
dtuuri said:
Not seeing it. I'm seeing somebody getting turned over to CTAF at the FAF, VFR or marginal VFR, and preferring to land straight-in, but willing to go around the field/pattern if there's traffic. He's already at TPA and descending, so wants to know ASAP for planning purposes where or if there's traffic at the airport. Seems like a reasonable call to make that's met with a whole bunch of resistance for no particular justification. So, let's say he announces five out and every "me first" guy in the pattern, ie., everybody, grabs the mic and blocks each other. So what? The jet learned what he needs to know and goes around.
Click to expand...

So the jet makes his first call on a straight-in and let's suppose I am in his general vicinity and I don't see him. I'm going to be on the mic quickly making sure we know exactly where each other is and what they are going to do. I don't want the student pilot who just took off announcing that he is on upwind. I want everyone who isn't an immediate hazard to either of us to keep their mouths shut. They don't matter to me and at that point, don't matter to the jet. But some people will lack the good sense to keep their mouth shut and will feel compelled to respond to the request that everyone advise. The jet and I can work it out. Then the jet can pick up all other calls when they are at a point that they would ordinarily make them.
 
250 knots, the speed limit is 250 knots below 10,000 and I've seen many jets doing just that in my travels. Like I said, they are moving, usually descending a few thousand in the process.
 
Then there are others.

I take off 26 (based on winds)
hear a citation on 4 mile final for rny 31
another plane says he is going to quickly get out of the landing citations way and that he is on roll (zero transmissions for taxi, intentions or the aircraft type), later i found it it was another Citation.

and that is why i like Towered airports
 
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