Another logging question non-PIC non-Dual

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
Senario:

A friend (not a CFI) owns an airplane. We went flying in it, with him in the left seat and me in the right seat. He did the takeoff and landing. I flew most everything in-between.

He was acting PIC for the whole flight, but I was the sole manipulator of the controls for the cruise/airwork part of the flight.

Nobody was under a hood and we are both ASEL licensed.

What can I log?
 
There are several gurus here that will tell you what you "can log", which imho is likely different than what you "should log".
 
If only there were a flowchart that answers these questions....
 
This is gonna be good...
 
DesertNomad said:
Senario:

A friend (not a CFI) owns an airplane. We went flying in it, with him in the left seat and me in the right seat. He did the takeoff and landing. I flew most everything in-between.

He was acting PIC for the whole flight, but I was the sole manipulator of the controls for the cruise/airwork part of the flight.

Nobody was under a hood and we are both ASEL licensed.

What can I log?
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Since you are not an instructor, and I'm assuming the plane does not require two pilots, and you were not operating where an ATP is required, and two pilots were not required under any relevant rules, and you were not in training to be PIC in a 121/135 operation where two pilots are required, and you were not the sole occupant of the aircraft, the only thing left is the "sole manipulator" clause 61.51(e)(1)(i). That means you can log PIC time for the time you were sole manipulator of the controls, and that's it.

And before you ask further, the answer is the same for your pal.
 
EdFred said:
It's not, we (Nick and I) even talked about this on the phone at length once.
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So does this mean that Sport Pilots and Rec Pilots can't log PIC?
 
DesertNomad said:
Senario:

A friend (not a CFI) owns an airplane. We went flying in it, with him in the left seat and me in the right seat. He did the takeoff and landing. I flew most everything in-between.

He was acting PIC for the whole flight, but I was the sole manipulator of the controls for the cruise/airwork part of the flight.

Nobody was under a hood and we are both ASEL licensed.

What can I log?
Click to expand...

Any time he does not log that you were sole manipulator, you are welcome to log.
 
If you mark the time incorrectly or any ink strays outside the box, secret agents from a special wing of the FAA will swoop in tonight while you sleep, kidnap you away to an underground facility. There you will be forced to read and recite the most longwinded and verbose legal explanation of what you can log and when, afterwards you will be summarily executed in front of your family. All because you marked something in your book wrong. You think this is a game???
 
gitmo234 said:
If you mark the time incorrectly or any ink strays outside the box, secret agents from a special wing of the FAA will swoop in tonight while you sleep, kidnap you away to an underground facility. There you will be forced to read and recite the most longwinded and verbose legal explanation of what you can log and when, afterwards you will be summarily executed in front of your family. All because you marked something in your book wrong. You think this is a game???
Click to expand...

Based on the username, I consider this credible information.
 
gitmo234 said:
If you mark the time incorrectly or any ink strays outside the box, secret agents from a special wing of the FAA will swoop in tonight while you sleep, kidnap you away to an underground facility. There you will be forced to read and recite the most longwinded and verbose legal explanation of what you can log and when, afterwards you will be summarily executed in front of your family. All because you marked something in your book wrong. You think this is a game???
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Where did you get that idea?
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From EdFred's flow chart.

"Are you (at least) a private pilot?" No. A Sport Pilot is not at least a Private.

"Are you a student pilot flying solo?" No. A Sport Pilot is not a student pilot and a Sport Pilot is is qualified to carry a passenger.

From there, the chart flows to the red "No, you may NOT log PIC time" box. But I missed the black box in the lower left, which I think should be at the top of the chart for better readability.
 
Henning said:
Any time he does not log that you were sole manipulator, you are welcome to log.
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Doesn't matter what the other guy logs -- the OP is legal to log exactly what I said above. The only remaining question is whether the other guy logs legally or not, but that doesn't affect what the OP can legally log.
 
gitmo234 said:
If you mark the time incorrectly or any ink strays outside the box, secret agents from a special wing of the FAA will swoop in tonight while you sleep, kidnap you away to an underground facility. There you will be forced to read and recite the most longwinded and verbose legal explanation of what you can log and when, afterwards you will be summarily executed in front of your family. All because you marked something in your book wrong. You think this is a game???
Click to expand...

No doubt written by PoA's resident windbag!!! Not that I'm naming names. :D
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't matter what the other guy logs -- the OP is legal to log exactly what I said above. The only remaining question is whether the other guy logs legally or not, but that doesn't affect what the OP can legally log.
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Might be legal, but unless he's paying the bill for the time, he sure the **** isn't welcome to it. Dude's nice enough to let you fly, no need to steal from him.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I known it is correct. I just wonder where Nick thinks it's wrong.
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I thunk the scenario was towing gliders at night under the hood without currency iirc. Maybe it was in a jet weighing more than 12,500 lbs too.
 
EdFred said:
Show me in the FAR's where the check ride exception is.
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On my check ride, my DPE came out and said that neither of us could log that time. I thought that was interesting.

So this "sole manipulator" clause is interesting. It seems in this case there were different phases of the flight where each pilot was the sole manipulator. The owner for the takeoff and landing, and the OP during cruise. Is that a situation where they could conceivably both log their portion of that single flight? Or is it on a per flight basis, where neither technically could because neither was the sole manipulator for the full flight?
 
Say the flight. Was 1.0

Pilot A logs 0.2(ish) for the t/o and landing. Pilot B logs 0.8 for the time he spent as sole manipulator
 
Sole manipulator of the controls... Serious question: Just primary flight controls, or all flight controls?
 
gitmo234 said:
If you mark the time incorrectly or any ink strays outside the box, secret agents from a special wing of the FAA will swoop in tonight while you sleep, kidnap you away to an underground facility. There you will be forced to read and recite the most longwinded and verbose legal explanation of what you can log and when, afterwards you will be summarily executed in front of your family. All because you marked something in your book wrong. You think this is a game???
Click to expand...
Great post!

Sent from my GT-I9295 using Tapatalk
 
Henning said:
Might be legal, but unless he's paying the bill for the time, he sure the **** isn't welcome to it. Dude's nice enough to let you fly, no need to steal from him.
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That may be your opinion, but it's not what the regs say, and it's definitely not "stealing" unless you somehow wrest legally loggable hours from the other person's logbook. Just log yourself legally without worrying about what the other person logs.
 
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Frogs97 said:
On my check ride, my DPE came out and said that neither of us could log that time. I thought that was interesting.
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As a strict-reading-of-the-regs matter, that DPE is correct, but the Chief Counsel has said in writing that someone can always log the time no matter what else.
So this "sole manipulator" clause is interesting. It seems in this case there were different phases of the flight where each pilot was the sole manipulator. The owner for the takeoff and landing, and the OP during cruise. Is that a situation where they could conceivably both log their portion of that single flight?
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Yes.
Or is it on a per flight basis, where neither technically could because neither was the sole manipulator for the full flight?
Click to expand...
No.
 
Kritchlow said:
Sole manipulator of the controls... Serious question: Just primary flight controls, or all flight controls?
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The regulation just says "controls". The FAA has said the manipulating the autopilot counts, but that's the only clarification they've given on point.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be your opinion, but it's not what the regs say, and it's definitely not "stealing" unless you somehow wrest legally loggable hours from the other person's logbook. Just log yourself legally without worrying about what the other person logs.
Click to expand...

If the guy is paying for time building time, and you log that time that they were nice enough to let you fly thereby making it so he can't log it, that is stealing, and makes you a scumbag regardless if it's legal or not, and you would likely never be welcome to fly with them again. You can go by the law and take everything that is legally available, or you can be a decent human being. We make our choices....
 
My earlier post was a bit off the deep end so let me explain. This all came about from a student pilot who ended what he thought was his final solo only to find he was .0001 hour short, so he decided to round up.

The feds were on him immediately and a cursory look at his logbook was a disgrace. It had letters like Y or J dropping below the lines, comments that werent in a box designated as a comment box. There was even evidence he was planning to just use a college rule notebook instead of an ASA logbook next time!!!! This caused further investigation, which really opened pandoras box.

He was not carrying actual size copies of all federal, state and flight applicable code and legal decisions in his airplane. He didnt have the last 500 years of maintenance records on his 2014 cessna, When he entered the airplane he didnt initial each placard in blue ink then place a placard on his forehead that says "pilot" as well as wear a necklace with an orange sign saying the same.

Under enhanced interrogation techniques he even later admitted to not always check the tire pressures before and after each flight, especially on flights the same day. There was even evidence that while tallying flight hours he used the inside cover of his logbook!!! This is why everyone needs to follow a checklist for open and entering stuff in your own logbook

Seeing that pilots were making their own decisions, they formed the task force. Honestly, You wont be executed... usually. Typically you'll just disappear forever if the time logged incorrectly is <1 hour.

Saying "screw it whatever" and logging a whole hour that is questionable is what gets you killed.
 
Kritchlow said:
This is gonna be good...
Click to expand...
giphy-facebook_s.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
As a strict-reading-of-the-regs matter, that DPE is correct, but the Chief Counsel has said in writing that someone can always log the time no matter what else.
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if you're referring to the elusive Beane interpretation, that "someone" would be the only "pilot rated in category and class" on board - the DPE not the unrated student pilot applicant.

The logging of the checkride by the unrated applicant is a matter of custom - and a very nice custom it is. Trying to fit it into 61.51 is an exercise twisting words and phrases that would make some politicians gawk in envy.
 
I think we need more regulation to fully cover all these situations
 
Henning said:
If the guy is paying for time building time, and you log that time that they were nice enough to let you fly thereby making it so he can't log it, that is stealing, and makes you a scumbag regardless if it's legal or not, and you would likely never be welcome to fly with them again. You can go by the law and take everything that is legally available, or you can be a decent human being. We make our choices....
Click to expand...

Whether you log it or not has zero bearing on whether the other guy can log it.

Each person has a legal standard that they need to meet to legally log the time, and none of those standards involve whether someone else logged the time as well.
 
gitmo234 said:
I think we need more regulation to fully cover all these situations
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Hey, wanna come flying with me?

OK, undo your seatbelt...good. Now open the door, I've got a draft of the new regulations that we should propose strapped to the strut. Lean all the way out there....
 
gitmo234 said:
I think we need more regulation to fully cover all these situations
Click to expand...

JeffDG said:
Hey, wanna come flying with me?

OK, undo your seatbelt...good. Now open the door, I've got a draft of the new regulations that we should propose strapped to the strut. Lean all the way out there....
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: Does every sarcastic post need a sarcasm smiley?
 
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