Another logging question non-PIC non-Dual

JeffDG said:
The guy paying gave the time to the person when he let him fly. If he wants to log that time, then it's up to him to say "No thanks, I've got this."

For him to give up the controls, then if he wants to log the time, he's putting false information in his logbook. Period, end of story.

Whether the guy who takes the controls logs the time or not is irrelevant to whether the paying guy can log the time or not.
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:yeahthat:
 
Henning said:
Exactly, so only one person gets to log the PIC time.
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This is getting silly.

The bottom line is a person only gets to log the time 61.51 (or another logging rule) permits to be logged by that person.

I can't imagine a one, two or three or dozen pilot logging question that can't be easily answered by that broad statement.

That's the regulatory framework. What individuals do within that framework is a different question.

Reading through the thread, I'm really not getting you "theft" point.

Pilot A and Pilot B fly together. Under the rules, Pilot A is allowed to log certain time as PIC and Pilot B is allowed to log certain time as PIC. Where is the theft if each logs his own time accordingly?

It's theft and unethical for a pilot to log 0.5 he was given the controls but it's perfectly OK and ethical for a pilot who is not entitled to log the time to intentionally falsify his logbook? And slashing tires is the moral equivalent of logging in accordance with set rules?
 
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Henning said:
I have no prescriptions and if you would log the time in the above scenario, you have warped ethics.
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I assume you're referring to the guy that wanted to legally log the .5 in the above scenario? If so, the only one with warped ethics would be the other guy if he decided to log the entire flight even though he ceded the controls to another pilot for a portion of that flight.

The post flight chat in the FBO:

"Hey Joe...I'd appreciate it if you didn't log that half-hour that you flew. I need to be able to log the entire thing for my commercial cross-country requirements" Whose ethics are "warped"?
 
MikeELP said:
I assume you're referring to the guy that wanted to legally log the .5 in the above scenario? If so, the only one with warped ethics would be the other guy if he decided to log the entire flight even though he ceded the controls to another pilot for a portion of that flight.

The post flight chat in the FBO:

"Hey Joe...I'd appreciate it if you didn't log that half-hour that you flew. I need to be able to log the entire thing for my commercial cross-country requirements" Whose ethics are "warped"?
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I think he's suggesting that the payment for the aircraft should control. IOW, money is the final measure of what is ethical. That's not a winnable argument since it deals with basic personal definitions of morality and ethics.
 
Henning, you happen to be on the wrong side of this. If it is my flight and I am paying for it and I let my passenger fly part of it and he is properly rated, I have voluntarily given up my right to that time. Doesn't matter if I paid for it or not. It doesn't matter whether the other guy LOGS it or not. If I am not manipulating the controls for that period of time it is ME that cannot legally log the time. End of story.
 
Henning said:
I have no prescriptions and if you would log the time in the above scenario, you have warped ethics.
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No, you just don't have a clue.

If you think that the second pilot logging has any bearing on whether the first pilot can log legally, you really need to review the regs before your next 709.
 
midlifeflyer said:
???

61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
​

Not sure what you mean.
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Scenario 1: Cessna 182, with pilot A and pilot B each in a front seat, on a Part 91 flight from Oakland, CA to Palm Springs, CA, with no intermediate landings. Pilot A acts as PIC and is sole manipulator of the controls at takeoff, and half way through the flight turns over the controls and the PIC authority to pilot B, who continues in those roles until they're on the ground at Palm Springs.

Sceanrio 2: Same as Scenario 1, except Pilot B takes over PIC duties and the controls 1/4 of the way through the flight, and turns those roles over to pilot A again 3/4 of the way through the flight.

In either scenario, can the pilots log any cross country time as defined in 61.1(b)? If so, who can log what? I thought I had heard that there was an issue due to neither of them making the whole flight.
 
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Larry in TN said:
Is the DPE a passenger? I would think that he's a required crew member for the practical test.
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No, he's not required crew, any more than a CFI is "required" (once you are legal to solo). He does fulfill a function, of course, but not as "crew".
 
Ron Levy said:
I suspect he's referring to the Chief Counsel opinion that outside of a required SIC (not just a 91.109(c) safety pilot), only the sole manipulator who made the takeoff and landing can log XC time.
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Yes, that's what I was talking about, although I didn't remember the details.
 
I need to examine my logbook. When I took my checkride the DPE filled out and signed my logbook. I honestly have never looked at what column the time is in. It shouldn't be PIC, but it also isn't dual received.
 
Palmpilot said:
Scenario 1: Cessna 182, with pilot A and pilot B each in a front seat, on a Part 91 flight from Oakland, CA to Palm Springs, CA, with no intermediate landings. Pilot A acts as PIC and is sole manipulator of the controls at takeoff, and half way through the flight turns over the controls and the PIC authority to pilot B, who continues in those roles until they're on the ground at Palm Springs.

Sceanrio 2: Same as Scenario 1, except Pilot B takes over PIC duties and the controls 1/4 of the way through the flight, and turns those roles over to pilot A again 3/4 of the way through the flight.

In either scenario, can the pilots log any cross country time as defined in 61.1(b)? If so, who can log what? I thought I had heard that there was an issue due to neither of them making the whole flight.
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This would be what you heard of....neither pilot can log it a cross country in the scenarios where flight time is handed back and forth.
 

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Ron Levy said:
That may be your opinion, but it's not what the regs say, and it's definitely not "stealing" unless you somehow wrest legally loggable hours from the other person's logbook. Just log yourself legally without worrying about what the other person logs.
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Yes, but all Henning does is rephrase what someone posted prior. Just check his posts and you'll see the obvious pattern.
 
pilot_dude said:
Yes, but all Henning does is rephrase what someone posted prior. Just check his posts and you'll see the obvious pattern.
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Does that mean he shouldn't get the post count increase in that case as he's stealing it from the originator? They can't both claim post increase on the same thought, can they?
 
Palmpilot said:
Scenario 1: Cessna 182, with pilot A and pilot B each in a front seat, on a Part 91 flight from Oakland, CA to Palm Springs, CA, with no intermediate landings. Pilot A acts as PIC and is sole manipulator of the controls at takeoff, and half way through the flight turns over the controls and the PIC authority to pilot B, who continues in those roles until they're on the ground at Palm Springs.

Sceanrio 2: Same as Scenario 1, except Pilot B takes over PIC duties and the controls 1/4 of the way through the flight, and turns those roles over to pilot A again 3/4 of the way through the flight.

In either scenario, can the pilots log any cross country time as defined in 61.1(b)? If so, who can log what? I thought I had heard that there was an issue due to neither of them making the whole flight.
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Yeah, there's an issue when there's a cross country. Ron mentioned that this might be it.

In both scenarios, neither pilot may log cross country time [2008 Hilliard Interpretation]

But that's related to what you can place in one column of the logbook entry about the flight (it is still a flight) - the cross country one. Other than that there's no difference from logging any other flight.
 
Timmer said:
Does that mean he shouldn't get the post count increase in that case as he's stealing it from the originator? They can't both claim post increase on the same thought, can they?
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
That can't be ethical.
 
RotorDude said:
No, he's not required crew, any more than a CFI is "required" (once you are legal to solo). He does fulfill a function, of course, but not as "crew".
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Technically he is during the hood work portion (safety pilot). (picky, picky, picky)
 
Larry in TN said:
Is the DPE a passenger?
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Most of the time, yes.
I would think that he's a required crew member for the practical test.
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Only while the applicant is under the hood, or if it's in a plane requiring two pilots and the DPE is filling the SIC role from the right seat. Other than that, the examiner is a passenger, which is why 61.47(c) is necessary.
 
Palmpilot said:
Scenario 1: Cessna 182, with pilot A and pilot B each in a front seat, on a Part 91 flight from Oakland, CA to Palm Springs, CA, with no intermediate landings. Pilot A acts as PIC and is sole manipulator of the controls at takeoff, and half way through the flight turns over the controls and the PIC authority to pilot B, who continues in those roles until they're on the ground at Palm Springs.

Sceanrio 2: Same as Scenario 1, except Pilot B takes over PIC duties and the controls 1/4 of the way through the flight, and turns those roles over to pilot A again 3/4 of the way through the flight.

In either scenario, can the pilots log any cross country time as defined in 61.1(b)?
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No. There's a Chief Counsel letter on point (the Hilliard letter mentioned above).

If so, who can log what?
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They can each log PIC time for the portion of the flight they were sole manipulator, but neither can log XC time.
 
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RotorDude said:
No, he's not required crew, any more than a CFI is "required" (once you are legal to solo). He does fulfill a function, of course, but not as "crew".
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Student pilots are not permitted to be PIC except when the sole occupant of the plane. Even after they are legal to solo, the instructor remains a required crewmember since the instructor must be the legal PIC during those training flights.
 
mikeinbama said:
I need to examine my logbook. When I took my checkride the DPE filled out and signed my logbook. I honestly have never looked at what column the time is in. It shouldn't be PIC, but it also isn't dual received.
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By strict reading of the regulations, you are correct. By tradition to which the FAA has never objected, it's logged as PIC time.
 
RotorDude said:
No, he's not required crew, any more than a CFI is "required" (once you are legal to solo). He does fulfill a function, of course, but not as "crew".
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Yet, there's another interpretation that permits a pilot and a CFI, neither of whom meet the 90 currency requirement for night, to fly at night in the same plane.

The logic of the letter was that neither was a "passenger"
 
JeffDG said:
Yet, there's another interpretation that permits a pilot and a CFI, neither of whom meet the 90 currency requirement for night, to fly at night in the same plane.

The logic of the letter was that neither was a "passenger"
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However, that letter (Kortokrax) states clearly that it applies only to an authorized instructor and trainee on a training flight where the instructor is giving training to the trainee. It has no application to a practical test with an applicant and examiner (who by FAA rule is prohibited from giving training during the test).
 
Ron Levy said:
However, that letter (Kortokrax) states clearly that it applies only to an authorized instructor and trainee on a training flight where the instructor is giving training to the trainee. It has no application to a practical test with an applicant and examiner (who by FAA rule is prohibited from giving training during the test).
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True.

However there is precedent that he's not a "passenger". He's also not "crew" nor "instructor"
 
midlifeflyer said:
Technically he is during the hood work portion (safety pilot). (picky, picky, picky)
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Well, I had in mind my relatively recent heli PP checkride, which did not include hood work.
Would have been hard to do it even if the DPE wanted, since like most primary training helis, the one we were in had no gyros. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
Student pilots are not permitted to be PIC except when the sole occupant of the plane. Even after they are legal to solo, the instructor remains a required crewmember since the instructor must be the legal PIC during those training flights.
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True, but in this case the student is clearly not PIC, and not even a "required crew member", unlike on the checkride, where someone must be PIC, and it's not the "passenger" DPE.
 
Ron Levy said:
By strict reading of the regulations, you are correct. By tradition to which the FAA has never objected, it's logged as PIC time.
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This would be the ultimate d*****bag DPE move... Do the oral, fly the practical test, and then DPE gives you a bust for filling your logbook as PIC...
 
RotorDude said:
True, but in this [solo-qualified Student Pilot flying with a CFI] case the student is clearly not PIC, and not even a "required crew member", unlike on the checkride, where someone must be PIC, and it's not the "passenger" DPE.
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OK. But how does that change anything I wrote? The Student Pilot certainly does not qualify under any subparagraph of 14 CFR 61.51(e) to log PIC time in this situation, since a solo endorsement does not constitute being "rated". Remember that the Chief Counsel has repeatedly made clear that an "endorsement" is not a "rating". And as for the practical test issue, despite the fact that it is a universally-accepted tradition that pilots log as PIC time their initial rating practical tests, the fact that the applicant who is a Student Pilot is the PIC doesn't by itself qualify the applicant to log PIC time under any subparagraph of 61.51(e). The same would be true of a PP-ASEL taking an AMEL additional class rating ride, or a fixed-wing pilot taking an additional Rotorcraft category rating ride, or a pilot taking an initial or additional type rating ride -- even though it's not strictly kosher, everyone always logs it as PIC time, and nobody's ever worried about it.
 
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mtuomi said:
This would be the ultimate d*****bag DPE move... Do the oral, fly the practical test, and then DPE gives you a bust for filling your logbook as PIC...
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Regardless of what you mean by "a bust", DPE's don't have the authority to "give you a bust" over how you fill out your logbook after the practical test is complete. And as has been stated repeatedly, regardless of any strict reading of 61.51(e), it is a well-established tradition that pilots log as PIC time their initial rating practical test, so I just don't see that happening.
 
I get all this leagalize stuff about logging (well, not really. I just follow Ed's flow chart).

That said, anyone else wish they (FAA) would make life simple and marry up acting PIC with logging PIC? It would make the logging thing so much simpler (seeing as though not everyone has access to Fred's flow chart), although a chunk of regs (which Ron can quote every one instantly) would need to be modified to conform with the above.

New flow chart :

---> acting as PIC? <---------- YES --------- you can log PIC
NO---------- no PIC for you!!
 
Kritchlow said:
I get all this leagalize stuff about logging (well, not really. I just follow Ed's flow chart).

That said, anyone else wish they (FAA) would make life simple and marry up acting PIC with logging PIC? It would make the logging thing so much simpler (seeing as though not everyone has access to Fred's flow chart), although a chunk of regs (which Ron can quote every one instantly) would need to be modified to conform with the above.

New flow chart :

---> acting as PIC? <---------- YES --------- you can log PIC
NO---------- no PIC for you!!
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See 14 CFR Part 11 for how to recommend that change to the FAA.
 
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