Another logging question non-PIC non-Dual

JeffDG said:
Whether you log it or not has zero bearing on whether the other guy can log it.

Each person has a legal standard that they need to meet to legally log the time, and none of those standards involve whether someone else logged the time as well.
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Incorrect. There are only a set few conditions under which more than one person can log a distinct flight time. There are many more conditions under which either pilot up front can claim PIC status.
 
Henning said:
Incorrect. There are only a set few conditions under which more than one person can log a distinct flight time. There are many more conditions under which either pilot up front can claim PIC status.
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Please cite the regulation that prohibits a pilot from logging time just because someone else logged the time.

If the person paying for the flight can legally log the time has precisely zero to do with whether the other guy logged the time. None. He (payor) can either log the time or not, regardless of what the other person does. Just because the other guy doesn't log the time doesn't entitle the payor to log it.
 
Ron Levy said:
The regulation just says "controls". The FAA has said the manipulating the autopilot counts, but that's the only clarification they've given on point.
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Was more curious about flaps/slats...
 
Really? As in you pilot flying command flap movement and the other pilot actually moves them? Therefore you are not "sole manipulator" of the controls? Do I have that right?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Really? As in you pilot flying command flap movement and the other pilot actually moves them? Therefore you are not "sole manipulator" of the controls? Do I have that right?
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No, not really. I was just curious seeing as though everyone here is so nit picky and tears apart every single word in the regs.
It would not influence the way I log time whatsoever.
Apparently even though I could log my time PIC, I opt to log the way the trip is dispatched; I'm the SIC.
 
I did the same thing. Although I have a 777 type rating I chose not to log my sole manipulator time as PIC. Legal to do so but it didn't feel right and there were some logistical issues also. I was the legal SIC.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I did the same thing. Although I have a 777 type rating I chose not to log my sole manipulator time as PIC. Legal to do so but it didn't feel right and there were some logistical issues also. I was the legal SIC.
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Exactly... Although I am a mere mortal with an A320 type.. Would love to fly the 777 !!
 
JeffDG said:
Please cite the regulation that prohibits a pilot from logging time just because someone else logged the time.

If the person paying for the flight can legally log the time has precisely zero to do with whether the other guy logged the time. None. He (payor) can either log the time or not, regardless of what the other person does. Just because the other guy doesn't log the time doesn't entitle the payor to log it.
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If you look, you will find it. There have been busts even over a Safety Pilot logging the exact same PIC time as the manipulating pilot when the manipulator was not under the hood.

If nobody is using the time in furtherance of a rating or to meet a legal standard I grant the point is moot. But most people who log time do it to fulfill one of those items, I know it's all I log anymore.
 
Henning said:
If the guy is paying for time building time, and you log that time that they were nice enough to let you fly thereby making it so he can't log it, that is stealing, and makes you a scumbag regardless if it's legal or not, and you would likely never be welcome to fly with them again. You can go by the law and take everything that is legally available, or you can be a decent human being. We make our choices....
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AFAIK, there is no legal basis to say that is "stealing" -- if you know otherwise, please cite the law on point. Further, I'm having trouble understanding how logging something which you are legally entitled to log makes you a bad person. And I'm also unable to find anything in the FAA regulations which says that paying for flight time entitles you to log it when 61.51 says you cannot.
 
midlifeflyer said:
if you're referring to the elusive Beane interpretation, that "someone" would be the only "pilot rated in category and class" on board - the DPE not the unrated student pilot applicant.
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I agree, which is why I said the DPE was wrong in saying nobody could log it. However...
The logging of the checkride by the unrated applicant is a matter of custom - and a very nice custom it is. Trying to fit it into 61.51 is an exercise twisting words and phrases that would make some politicians gawk in envy.
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...and I agree with that, too. And apparently so does everyone in the FAA who's ever examined an above-Student Pilot's logbook.
 
Henning said:
Incorrect. There are only a set few conditions under which more than one person can log a distinct flight time. There are many more conditions under which either pilot up front can claim PIC status.
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There is no regulation under which "either pilot up front can claim PIC status". Designation of who is the PIC is well-established in the regulations (and is very clearly limited to one person at a time), and has little to do with who can log PIC time (which can often be logged by two people at once).
 
Ron Levy said:
AFAIK, there is no legal basis to say that is "stealing" -- if you know otherwise, please cite the law on point. Further, I'm having trouble understanding how logging something which you are legally entitled to log makes you a bad person. And I'm also unable to find anything in the FAA regulations which says that paying for flight time entitles you to log it when 61.51 says you cannot.
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Life isn't about the law, life is about moral justification.
 
Henning said:
If you look, you will find it. There have been busts even over a Safety Pilot logging the exact same PIC time as the manipulating pilot when the manipulator was not under the hood.
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That's not what we're talking about. If the manipulating pilot is not under the hood, and the airplane doesn't required two pilots (which was true for the PA23 in that case) the "safety pilot" acting as PIC is not legal to log PIC time under 14 CFR 61.51. The fact that they both logged it was not in and of itself the issue, but just the trigger which cause the FAA to look into the situation and discover that they were logging a lot time which 61.51 did not authorize them to log.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4008.PDF
 
Henning said:
Life isn't about the law, life is about moral justification.
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Regardless, what I put in my logbook has precisely zero bearing on what you may legally put in your logbook. How can I be "stealing" time if what I do does not impact you in the slightest?
 
Frogs97 said:
On my check ride, my DPE came out and said that neither of us could log that time. I thought that was interesting.

So this "sole manipulator" clause is interesting. It seems in this case there were different phases of the flight where each pilot was the sole manipulator. The owner for the takeoff and landing, and the OP during cruise. Is that a situation where they could conceivably both log their portion of that single flight? Or is it on a per flight basis, where neither technically could because neither was the sole manipulator for the full flight?
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If I remember rightly, cross country time is the only thing that has to be logged on a per flight basis, or at least on a takeoff-to-touchdown basis.
 
Kritchlow said:
No, not really. I was just curious seeing as though everyone here is so nit picky and tears apart every single word in the regs.
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You certainly have us figured out! :)

Apparently even though I could log my time PIC, I opt to log the way the trip is dispatched; I'm the SIC.
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As I understand it, FAA rules for when you can log PIC time are more lenient than airline rules for that.
 
Ron Levy said:
I agree, which is why I said the DPE was wrong in saying nobody could log it. However...
...and I agree with that, too. And apparently so does everyone in the FAA who's ever examined an above-Student Pilot's logbook.
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When I got my PP Heli add-on a few years ago, I was told that I could log the checkride as PIC because "a checkride is the only time a student pilot is allowed to carry a passenger (the DPE)." Is that still the case?
 
RotorDude said:
When I got my PP Heli add-on a few years ago, I was told that I could log the checkride as PIC because "a checkride is the only time a student pilot is allowed to carry a passenger (the DPE)." Is that still the case?
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It is true that the practical test is "the only time a student pilot is allowed to carry a passenger (the DPE)" -- see 61.47(c):
(c) Notwithstanding the type of aircraft used during the practical test, the applicant and the examiner (and any other occupants authorized to be on board by the examiner) are not subject to the requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this chapter.
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...but it is not true that this allows a Student Pilot to log PIC time during that test -- that's a 61.51 logging issue, and the exception above applies only to "the requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers", not the rules on logging. There is really nothing explicit in the regulations allowing a Student Pilot to do that -- just tradition. Unless, of course, there's a Chief Counsel letter on point that I've not seen.
 
Ron Levy said:
It is true that the practical test is "the only time a student pilot is allowed to carry a passenger (the DPE)" -- see 61.47(c):
...but it is not true that this allows a Student Pilot to log PIC time during that test -- that's a 61.51 logging issue, and the exception above applies only to "the requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers", not the rules on logging. There is really nothing explicit in the regulations allowing a Student Pilot to do that -- just tradition. Unless, of course, there's a Chief Counsel letter on point that I've not seen.
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Interesting. Of course if the student pilot is allowed to carry the DPE "as a passenger", logic dictates that the student is the PIC, but I realize that logic and FAA rules are not always in harmony. Well, I am not going to white-out that PIC time, in any case. :)
 
Palmpilot said:
You certainly have us figured out! :)



As I understand it, FAA rules for when you can log PIC time are more lenient than airline rules for that.
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I was unaware the airlines even cared how you logged it. Other than the fact that they may have some specific types of time they look for. Even then there is no reason not to log everything you are legally entitled to.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I was unaware the airlines even cared how you logged it. Other than the fact that they may have some specific types of time they look for. Even then there is no reason not to log everything you are legally entitled to.
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Your second sentence is what I was referring to.
 
Palmpilot said:
If I remember rightly, cross country time is the only thing that has to be logged on a per flight basis, or at least on a takeoff-to-touchdown basis.
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???

61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
​

Not sure what you mean.
 
RotorDude said:
Interesting. Of course if the student pilot is allowed to carry the DPE "as a passenger", logic dictates that the student is the PIC, but I realize that logic and FAA rules are not always in harmony. Well, I am not going to white-out that PIC time, in any case. :)
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That the student is allowed to carry the DPE as a passenger and that the DPE is not acting as PIC is what tha FAR actually says. Of course the student is acting as PIC. So is a non-pilot who steals an airplane (although the student is, of course, doing it legally).

But logging rules don't have to coincide with operational rules.

It is a strictly academic question. I can't think of anyone who suggested white out. I would be extremely surprised if even one person in this forum does not have the FAA PP checkride logged as PIC.
 
RotorDude said:
Interesting. Of course if the student pilot is allowed to carry the DPE "as a passenger", logic dictates that the student is the PIC,
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Not just logic -- it's written in black-and-white in the regulations, PTS, and relevant FAA Orders that the applicant is PIC unless special arrangements are made for the examiner to act as PIC. However, merely being the PIC is not sufficient to be legal to log PIC time -- and often not even necessary. In fact, there are situations where someone can log PIC time without even being qualified to act as PIC.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
???
61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
​
Not sure what you mean.
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I suspect he's referring to the Chief Counsel opinion that outside of a required SIC (not just a 91.109(c) safety pilot), only the sole manipulator who made the takeoff and landing can log XC time.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not what we're talking about. If the manipulating pilot is not under the hood, and the airplane doesn't required two pilots (which was true for the PA23 in that case) the "safety pilot" acting as PIC is not legal to log PIC time under 14 CFR 61.51. The fact that they both logged it was not in and of itself the issue, but just the trigger which cause the FAA to look into the situation and discover that they were logging a lot time which 61.51 did not authorize them to log.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/4008.PDF
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Exactly, so only one person gets to log the PIC time. The fact they both logged the time that was not under the hood was EXACTLY the issue, the reason it was noticed was because they had identical time entries in the log.

You can do what's legal or you can do what's right, see which serves you better.
 
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Henning said:
Exactly, so only one person gets to log the PIC time. The fact they both logged the time that was not under the hood was EXACTLY the issue, the reason it was noticed was because they had identical time entries in the log.

You can do what's legal or you can do what's right, see which serves you better.
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So, what you're saying is that the person legally entitled to log the time shouldn't so that the other person can lie in their log book and not get caught? Because that's basically your point.

You call that "being a good person". I would classify same as "aiding and abetting", to each their own.
 
JeffDG said:
So, what you're saying is that the person legally entitled to log the time shouldn't so that the other person can lie in their log book and not get caught? Because that's basically your point.

You call that "being a good person". I would classify same as "aiding and abetting", to each their own.
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I am saying that the person who is PAYING FOR THE TIME has first dibs on it. If they don't want it, and you are legally eligible to log it, you are welcome to do so. How ****ing difficult is this to ****ing comprehend?:dunno:
 
Think of it like this. You are building time towards your commercial rating and you are flying on a cross country. You bring along another guy who asks to come with you to see the route, you agree. Along the way cruising along he asks to 'feel the plane' and you end up relinquishing the controls for half an hour. When you get back, you see him whip out his log book and logs that .5 which is completely legal, however you can no longer log this time legally. Is it right for them to log that .5? If you paid for it, and they logged it against your will, how is that not stealing?:dunno: Would you consider them "welcome" to that time?
 
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Henning said:
I am saying that the person who is PAYING FOR THE TIME has first dibs on it. If they don't want it, and you are legally eligible to log it, you are welcome to do so. How ****ing difficult is this to ****ing comprehend?:dunno:
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I don't care if they are paying. If they're not legally eligible to log it, then they cannot do so without lying in their logbook. If they're legally eligible to log it, it doesn't matter a bit whether the other person logs it or not.
 
Henning said:
Think of it like this. You are building time towards your commercial rating and you are flying on a cross country. You bring along another guy who asks to come with you to see the route, you agree. Along the way cruising along he asks to 'feel the plane' and you end up relinquishing the controls for half an hour. When you get back, you see him whip out his log book and logs that .5 which is completely legal, however you can no longer log this time legally. Is it right for them to log that .5? If you paid for it, and they logged it against your will, how is that not stealing?:dunno: Would you consider them "welcome" to that time?
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OK, you were not the sole manipulator of the controls for that .5. Regardless of whether the other person logs it or not, you are not eligible to do so without lying in your logbook. It's not stealing because it wasn't yours to begin with.

You simply advocate people not logging things so other can lie.
 
JeffDG said:
OK, you were not the sole manipulator of the controls for that .5. Regardless of whether the other person logs it or not, you are not eligible to do so without lying in your logbook. It's not stealing because it wasn't yours to begin with.

You simply advocate people not logging things so other can lie.
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Then the dude owns for the time. Put it this way, if you ever pull that, you will never get another ride from them, and you will likely become pariah at an airport. If you use the law to make wrong right, you're an *******, plain and simple. Since suing you for the time cost would be too expensive, I'd just slash a tire, about equivalent value and below your insurance deductible.
 
Henning said:
Then the dude owns for the time. Put it this way, if you ever pull that, you will never get another ride from them, and you will likely become pariah at an airport. If you use the law to make wrong right, you're an *******, plain and simple. Since suing you for the time cost would be too expensive, I'd just slash a tire, about equivalent value and below your insurance deductible.
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The guy paying gave the time to the person when he let him fly. If he wants to log that time, then it's up to him to say "No thanks, I've got this."

For him to give up the controls, then if he wants to log the time, he's putting false information in his logbook. Period, end of story.

Whether the guy who takes the controls logs the time or not is irrelevant to whether the paying guy can log the time or not.

Are you really this dense?
 
JeffDG said:
The guy paying gave the time to the person when he let him fly. If he wants to log that time, then it's up to him to say "No thanks, I've got this."

For him to give up the controls, then if he wants to log the time, he's putting false information in his logbook. Period, end of story.

Whether the guy who takes the controls logs the time or not is irrelevant to whether the paying guy can log the time or not.

Are you really this dense?
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No, you're that much of an *******.
 
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