Another "Does This Require a Commercial Pilot?" Thread

FastEddieB said:
But if they did, they'd need a Commercial license! :yes:
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I respectfully disagree..

1- It is HIS turnips

2- It is HIS plane

3- It is on HIS schedule

4- It is paid for entirely from HIS pocket..

Looks and smells like a private pilot excercizing his rights as a PP... IMHO
 
N801BH said:
I respectfully disagree..

1- It is HIS turnips

2- It is HIS plane

3- It is on HIS schedule

4- It is paid for entirely from HIS pocket..

Looks and smells like a private pilot excercizing his rights as a PP... IMHO
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Not if his customer is paying him for the turnips.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not if his customer is paying him for the turnips.
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I am not charging freight to haul the turnips.

I would sell at same price at the a Turnip Farm.


I may accept a Thermos of delicious Turnip Soup to keep me hydrated on the return flight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
N801BH said:
If his customer required the turnips to be flown in, then maybe.... IMHO...
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I told the customer I would deliver the turnips to him. I can either drive for four hours or fly for one hour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am not charging freight to haul the turnips.

I would sell at same price at the a Turnip Farm.
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Even in that case, you are still providing a service (delivery of the turnips), and your compensation would be the encouragement of future business ("goodwill").
 
Ok.......

So,, the turnup farmer ships his turnips to the customer by way of Fed Ex ground.. he is concerned about the freshness of his produce so he flies down to monitor, inspect and inventory the delivery......

Does he need a CP for that flight ?
 
N801BH said:
Ok.......

So,, the turnup farmer ships his turnips to the customer by way of Fed Ex ground.. he is concerned about the freshness of his produce so he flies down to monitor, inspect and inventory the delivery......

Does he need a CP for that flight ?
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Is this flight "incidental to that business or employment"? Certainly seems that way to me given the language in the FAA Chief Counsel interpretations quoted above. Does he "carry passengers or property for compensation or hire"? Sounds like he's not carrying anyone or anything but himself. So, it certainly seems the 61.113(b) exemption applies, and he can receive both his regular pay and reimbursement for the direct expenses of the flight even with only a PP ticket.
 
Ron Levy said:
Even in that case, you are still providing a service (delivery of the turnips), and your compensation would be the encouragement of future business ("goodwill").
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Goodwill would have been gained in this case either way, so it's a wash.
 
Ron Levy said:
Is this flight "incidental to that business or employment"? Certainly seems that way to me given the language in the FAA Chief Counsel interpretations quoted above. Does he "carry passengers or property for compensation or hire"? Sounds like he's not carrying anyone or anything but himself. So, it certainly seems the 61.113(b) exemption applies, and he can receive both his regular pay and reimbursement for the direct expenses of the flight even with only a PP ticket.
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So....

Let me get this straight,, In the flight where the turnip farmer flies down to inspect the shipment by Fed Ex he is OK with just a PP...

If he throws some turnips in the plane and makes the EXACT same flight he is in violation of the regs????...

Only the guv can screw up a wet dream...:mad2::mad2::mad2::redface:
 
MikeELP said:
Good grief...you're really digging a hole, Ron. That one is a stretch. Even for you.
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Not if you read Murray, cited above, in which the pilot's business relationship with the bar owner was not active, while this one is. Doing a favor for a customer in the expectation of future profit is exactly what "goodwill" is all about. If you give this customer the special favor of delivering the goods free, it would be at the very least naïve to argue that you didn't expect that would encourage future business with that customer. From Murray:

Nevertheless, compensation need not be direct nor in the form of money. Goodwill is a form of prohibited compensation. Administrator v. Blackburn, 4 NTSB 409 (1982).​
...​
Interpreting the facts in a way most favorable to respondent and assuming that he really had no expectation of any kind of benefit, strains credulity.​
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The FAA has consistently construed compensation broadly. Compensation "does not require a profit, a profit motive, or the actual payment of funds." Legal Interpretation to Joseph Kirwan (May 27,2005). Rather, compensation is the receipt of anything of value. The FAA has previously found that reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), accumulation of flight time, and goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefit could be considered compensation. Legal Interpretation to John W. Harrington (Oct. 23, 1997); Blakey v. Murray, NTSB Order No. EA-5061 (Oct. 28, 2003).​
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​
All things considered, including past cases and the interpretations discussed, I just don't see the Chief Counsel saying this is OK with a PP ticket. If someone wants to ask and get an official reading to the contrary, I'd be happy to be wrong, but I strongly recommend nobody do this with only a PP unless they get that in writing from the FAA.​
 
denverpilot said:
Goodwill would have been gained in this case either way, so it's a wash.
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How do you figure that goodwill is not gained when you save a customer money by providing the special service of delivering goods free of charge rather than the normal procedure of making him/her come pick them up at his/her own expense or pay a third party to transport them? As the NTSB said, that position "strains credulity".
 
Ron Levy said:
Not if you read Murray, cited above, in which the pilot's business relationship with the bar owner was not active, while this one is. Doing a favor for a customer in the expectation of future profit is exactly what "goodwill" is all about. If you give this customer the special favor of delivering the goods free, it would be at the very least naïve to argue that you didn't expect that would encourage future business with that customer. From Murray:
All things considered, including past cases and the interpretations discussed, I just don't see the Chief Counsel saying this is OK with a PP ticket. If someone wants to ask and get an official reading to the contrary, I'd be happy to be wrong, but I strongly recommend nobody do this with only a PP unless they get that in writing from the FAA.​
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The turnip farmer is paying Fed EX to ship his goods to the customer.... I don't see this "goodwill" clause even having a snowballs chance in hell of relating...:dunno::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
josephbelt01 said:
I would imagine a commercial would not be required. The turnips are his personal property. It's no different than selling your laptop on Craigslist and deciding to fly your plane to meet the guy that bought it.
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And who says that's legal? Not anything the FAA has written, and the regulation says "no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire", not "or the property of another."

What if an A&P needed a special tool and a private pilot offered to take a short flight to retrieve it? That's not a problem in my opinion.
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If that private pilot has a business relationship with that A&P (say, s/he has his plane maintained by that A&P), that would, in my opinion, be a violation of 61.113(b) because s/he is then carrying property (the tool) for compensation (the goodwill generated in their ongoing business relationship).

He could just as easily taken the car.
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Many people believe that the fact that you could have taken another mode of transportation means that the flight is "incidental" -- and that's a misinterpretation of that term.

In any event:
1. Someone who understands aviation has to notice.
2. They have to care enough to report it.
3. The Feds have to care enough to investigate.
4. There needs to be enough evidence (i.e. paper trail) for them to prove your activities are prohibited.
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Agreed, except a paper trail isn't required -- just enough evidence within the rules which apply to administrative cases, and that's a much lower standard than those applying to admissibility of evidence in criminal cases.

The truth is I'm sure you could fly for years, never having a certificate or medical, and nobody would know unless you wrecked.
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The reason I'm sure that's true is I know that it's happened. But if the question is legality, then the fact that someone did it and never got caught is not germane to the discussion.
 
N801BH said:
So....

Let me get this straight,, In the flight where the turnip farmer flies down to inspect the shipment by Fed Ex he is OK with just a PP...

If he throws some turnips in the plane and makes the EXACT same flight he is in violation of the regs????...

Only the guv can screw up a wet dream...:mad2::mad2::mad2::redface:
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You could probably say the same thing about Mangiamele taking his wife along on a business trip, but that's how the FAA says it is.
 
Ron Levy said:
You could probably say the same thing about Mangiamele taking his wife along on a business trip, but that's how the FAA says it is.
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Sir, as much as I usually disagree with you.. I have to commend you on your persistence and knowledge.....:cheers::cheers:
 
N801BH said:
Sir, as much as I usually disagree with you.. I have to commend you on your persistence and knowledge.....:cheers::cheers:
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The one word which in my case keeps showing up on the post-training critiques PIC sends its clients about its instructors is "patience". Which really comes as a surprise to my wife.
:dunno:
I'm just trying to help folks be safe and stay legal. And while there's a lot out there that falls in the "56 in a 55 zone" category, you just don't have to worry as much when you stay within the FAA's rules. Pays off at medical time, too -- lower blood pressure, better heart rate, fewer gray hairs, etc. And yes, my AME mentioned my gray hair last time -- teased me about still saying "BRN" in the hair color box. :sigh:
 
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Palmpilot said:
Do you have a commercial driver's license? :wink2:
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I might just put them on my boat and float them down the river to the chef that makes Turnip Soup.

I will await Henning telling me that I can't do that until I have my 100 Tonne license..... (if that is such a thing...)
 
N801BH said:
The turnip farmer is paying Fed EX to ship his goods to the customer.... I don't see this "goodwill" clause even having a snowballs chance in hell of relating...:dunno::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
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Goodwill is an interesting concept, as, in business, one can have goodwill on the books as an asset. So, most anything in "furtherance" of the business will add to goodwill.
 
N801BH said:
Treat them like we treat wolves out here....

Shoot
Shovel
Shut up.....
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Most of the S-S-S crowd would be hard-pressed to even see a wolf from their perch on the barstool drinking Keystone Light.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Try FedEx or UPS, probably cheaper.
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Not fast enough, Fresh Turnips need to be in the Turnip Soup within 4 hours of harvest.

The only way I can get them there is to drive them in my PU or fly them in the back of my Jenny.
 
FastEddieB said:
But if they did, they'd need a Commercial license! :yes:
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I think you may be correct. It appears there are NO flights ever allowed under the Private certificate due to the "compensation" issue.

On a trip to get a $100 hamburger, If a private pilot were to log the hours, that would be considered "compensation" allowing him to get hours toward a rating.

And, you can't take a date on a $100 hamburger run, as doing that would be in exchange for "goodwill" later in the evening when you try and get a little "something-something".

You can't take a niece a birthday cake, as was previously the only approved flight in this thread, as "goodwill" would develop between the pilot and the rest of the family, and the FAA has repeatedly said that goodwill is prohibited.
 
Ron Levy said:
Even in that case, you are still providing a service (delivery of the turnips), and your compensation would be the encouragement of future business ("goodwill").
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Can I travel around with samples of my Turnips and show them to prospective customers?
 
N801BH said:
I respectfully disagree..

1- It is HIS turnips

2- It is HIS plane

3- It is on HIS schedule

4- It is paid for entirely from HIS pocket..

Looks and smells like a private pilot excercizing his rights as a PP... IMHO
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't see the compensation.

If I sell them to a random stranger across the street from the Farmer's Market, there is no "goodwill" developed.
 
josephbelt01 said:
I would imagine a commercial would not be required. The turnips are his personal property. It's no different than selling your laptop on Craigslist and deciding to fly your plane to meet the guy that bought it. What if an A&P needed a special tool and a private pilot offered to take a short flight to retrieve it? That's not a problem in my opinion. He could just as easily taken the car. It's inconsequential. If he were tasked with regularly flying parts around for the A&P and receiving a 1099 that may be frowned upon.
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Hell, can you sell your plane, and deliver it to the Buyer?
 
When I bought my plane, it had a banner tow hook on it, and I got all the banner equipment with the plane.

Can I:

  • Fly a banner that says "Buy JoseCuervo Turnips They Are The Best"
  • Fly a banner that says "Eat more Turnips, They are Good For You"
  • Fly a banner that says "Eat more Vegetables, They are Good for You"
  • Fly a banner that says "Support Higher Taxes on Carrots and Radishes"
 
Ron Levy said:
The one word which in my case keeps showing up on the post-training critiques PIC sends its clients about its instructors is "patience". Which really comes as a surprise to my wife.
:dunno:
I'm just trying to help folks be safe and stay legal. And while there's a lot out there that falls in the "56 in a 55 zone" category, you just don't have to worry as much when you stay within the FAA's rules. Pays off at medical time, too -- lower blood pressure, better heart rate, fewer gray hairs, etc. And yes, my AME mentioned my gray hair last time -- teased me about still saying "BRN" in the hair color box. :sigh:
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I appreciate your time and your replies on this topic. Thank you.

I asked earlier, but not sure if you missed it, but are any of the letters or enforcements where the person was flying on their own behalf without any sort of reimbursement from another party?

I haven't found one that really applies to me owning my own Turnip Farm, my own plane, and trying to further my own business.
 
Oh.....:D

e892.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
Not if his customer is paying him for the turnips.
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You show me where the FAA makes this linkage that disallows this. If you bring your product to market in your plane, you show me where the FAA disallows that.
 
Ron Levy said:
The one word which in my case keeps showing up on the post-training critiques PIC sends its clients about its instructors is "patience". Which really comes as a surprise to my wife.
:dunno:
I'm just trying to help folks be safe and stay legal. And while there's a lot out there that falls in the "56 in a 55 zone" category, you just don't have to worry as much when you stay within the FAA's rules. Pays off at medical time, too -- lower blood pressure, better heart rate, fewer gray hairs, etc. And yes, my AME mentioned my gray hair last time -- teased me about still saying "BRN" in the hair color box. :sigh:
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Having someone recite FAA lawyer stupidity to me regularly, isn't particularly good for my blood pressure. I guess we can't find any better for the money? LOL.
 
Ron Levy said:
How do you figure that goodwill is not gained when you save a customer money by providing the special service of delivering goods free of charge rather than the normal procedure of making him/her come pick them up at his/her own expense or pay a third party to transport them? As the NTSB said, that position "strains credulity".
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He said he was delivering the goods for free either way. Car or airplane. No additional goodwill for either one. Wash.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I think you may be correct. It appears there are NO flights ever allowed under the Private certificate due to the "compensation" issue.
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You're still not getting the fundamental concept -- that the issue is compensation from another party in return for providing air transportation.
On a trip to get a $100 hamburger, If a private pilot were to log the hours, that would be considered "compensation" allowing him to get hours toward a rating.
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Only if the trip was funded by another party in return for some consideration.
And, you can't take a date on a $100 hamburger run, as doing that would be in exchange for "goodwill" later in the evening when you try and get a little "something-something".
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Only if you have a business relationship with that "date", in which case you have other legal problems starting with solicitation of prostitution.
You can't take a niece a birthday cake, as was previously the only approved flight in this thread, as "goodwill" would develop between the pilot and the rest of the family, and the FAA has repeatedly said that goodwill is prohibited.
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Again, only if you have a business relationship with your niece, as the concept of "goodwill" only applies to business relationships.

To be honest, I'm getting a bit frustrated here. It seems like some folks are doing their best to deliberately misunderstand the fundamental concepts I've explained repeatedly in order to try to ridicule the FAA's rules by suggesting those rules are being violated when no such violation exists in the actions they purport as being illegal.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I agree, I don't see the compensation.
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I get that, but based on the cases and interpretations, I think the FAA will still see it there even if you don't see it.
If I sell them to a random stranger across the street from the Farmer's Market, there is no "goodwill" developed.
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Probably so, but that's not what is happening in your scenario, where you provided air transportation of the product to the customer without charge.
 
JoseCuervo said:
When I bought my plane, it had a banner tow hook on it, and I got all the banner equipment with the plane.

Can I:

  • Fly a banner that says "Buy JoseCuervo Turnips They Are The Best"
  • Fly a banner that says "Eat more Turnips, They are Good For You"
  • Fly a banner that says "Eat more Vegetables, They are Good for You"
  • Fly a banner that says "Support Higher Taxes on Carrots and Radishes"
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Sure -- as long as nobody is compensating you for doing that. And that's covered in another interpretation.
 
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