Another "Does This Require a Commercial Pilot?" Thread

Ron Levy said:
I don't see why not -- there's no compensation involved because they aren't paying anything to have you visit.
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So if said Turnip farmer happens to leave turnips accidentally and instead of people sending said turnips to him they send a check....that work?
 
JoseCuervo said:
I appreciate your time and your replies on this topic. Thank you.

I asked earlier, but not sure if you missed it, but are any of the letters or enforcements where the person was flying on their own behalf without any sort of reimbursement from another party?

I haven't found one that really applies to me owning my own Turnip Farm, my own plane, and trying to further my own business.
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Furthering your own business without reimbursement is one thing. Providing air transportation of property for compensation is something else, and giving free delivery to your customer (obviously free if you sell the same product for the same price at your farm) involved creation of goodwill, and that's compensation.

As I said earlier, if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to write to the Chief Counsel and get them to say I've got it wrong. But until then, I strongly suggest not acting on your belief unless you don't mind a significant enforcement action if the FAA catches you at it and the FAA Counsel says what I think they'll say.
 
Henning said:
You show me where the FAA makes this linkage that disallows this. If you bring your product to market in your plane, you show me where the FAA disallows that.
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61.113(b) is pretty clear:
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire;
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Or are you suggesting that "your product" isn't "property" and getting paid for your product isn't "compensation"? Personally, I don't see the FAA agreeing with you, but if you can get them to say that, I'll be happy to go along with what they say.
 
denverpilot said:
He said he was delivering the goods for free either way. Car or airplane. No additional goodwill for either one. Wash.
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The FAA doesn't care what you do with your car. They do care what you do with your plane. Again, you have the mistaken idea that the "incidental" clause somehow allows you to do with your plane anything which is legal to do with your car, and that just isn't so.
 
MikeELP said:
As are many of us, Ron. But you go ahead and continue trying to convince yourself that you're right.

:D
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Tell you what -- you write to the Chief Counsel and use their reply to convince me that I'm wrong. Personally, I don't really care if Jose loses his ticket, only that he can't say I misled him into thinking that what he proposes to do is legal.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tell you what -- you write to the Chief Counsel and use their reply to convince me that I'm wrong. Personally, I don't really care if Jose loses his ticket, only that he can't say I misled him into thinking that what he proposes to do is legal.
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So how will the FAA come to find out those turnips were sold? I doubt the FAA has pitchforks ready at every airport and farmers market just waiting to catch people. Then again...I am not a CFI or FAA rep....just a curious person that hasn't got the impression in the talks I have had with real FAA reps that they are out to get us. The knowledge is nice to see though Ron...just have a hard time thinking the big wolf is at the door.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said earlier, if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to write to the Chief Counsel and get them to say I've got it wrong. But until then, I strongly suggest not acting on your belief unless you don't mind a significant enforcement action if the FAA catches you at it and the FAA Counsel says what I think they'll say.
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Good luck on getting anyone in the FAA to pursue a "significant enforcement action" on something like the proposed turnip operation. The first Inspector that takes something like this to his FLM to open an EIR will get his work program re-evaluated for having too much time on his hands. :rolleyes:
 
The way I look at it, once you are into the gray area of parsing words and deciding where the actual boundary is between the need for commercial rating vs. a private pilot using his plane "incidental to his business", there are no hard and fast rules.
The FAA does not rely on precedents for enforcement actions, only the rules as written, and interpret them with some discretion, as they see fit for a given situation.
So it's really up to each pilot to read the regs, and the precedents and letters for background information and interpretation.
I myself believe the Mays letter from 1977 (reproduced below and also quoted above), though a bit dated, still reflects the most thoughtful, rational and logical (i.e. common-sensical) interpretation of the relevant written regs (which haven't changed, to my knowledge).
I think the key aspects are, are you getting paid to transport people and/or property, and how much of your job involves flying related to your work.
Clearly the FAA goal is to require a commercial rating when you are transporting people or property for money, yet allow a private pilot to use his/her plane as an incidental part of the job.
Obviously you are always at the whim of any (over)zealous government employee (e.g. Hoover), but in my own experience, the vast majority of FAA employees are good people, use common sense and actually want to make aviation both safe and productive. In other words, they are on our side.

September 8, 1977

Mr. Harry M. Mays

Dear Mr. Mays:

This is in reply to your letter of October 8, 1976, requesting an
opinion as to the legal permissibility, under the Federal Aviation
Regulations (FAR), of allowing private pilots to transport juvenile
wards of San Bernardino County.

By way of background, you have stated that the County Probation
Department currently employs a number of persons who possess private
pilot certificates. The department places a number of juveniles in
foster homes which are many hours during time from your central San
Bernardino facility. You wish to allow persons possessing private
pilot certificates to transport those juveniles by air. As we
understand the facts, the aircraft used would be rented on a per trip
basis. Aircraft operation is not part of the pilot's job description,
nor a condition of employment or advancement. The pilot would not be
compensated over and above his usual salary. The county would pay for
the aircraft rental charges.

We will answer your questions in the order which they have been
presented:
1. "Is it legal for the department to use personnel with pilot's
licenses to transport juvenile wards?" The privileges and limitations
of a private pilot certificate are found in Title 14, Code of Federal
Regulations (CFR), Section 61.118. The basic rules announced therein
states that "a private pilot may not act as pilot in command of an
aircraft that is carrying passengers for compensation or hire, act as
pilot in command of an aircraft." Subsection (a) of the regulations,
however, does allow a private pilot, for compensation or hire, to act
as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or
employment if the flight is only incidental to that employment or
business and the aircraft does not carry passengers for compensation
or hire.

So long as there is no compensation paid by or for the passengers, or
received by the pilot, for the flight, a private pilot may carry
passengers provided that the flight is only incident to employment.
Whether a flight is merely incident to employment or a necessary or
major part of his job requires a qualitative judgment based upon a
number of factors including, but not limited to, the following:
a. Is the piloting of an aircraft a condition of employment
or advancement; or a part of his job description? If so, flights would
not be "incident" to employment.
b. Is the pilot compensated, over and above his normal
income, for operating an aircraft? If so, the operation of the
aircraft is not merely "incidental" to his work.
c. How much of the pilot's work time is spent operating an
aircraft? The greater the amount of time, the less the operations are
"incident" to employment.
2. Is there any restriction as to the distance persons can be
transported? There is no distance restriction.
3. Could a person possessing a commercial license perform these
duties? If so, would there be any restrictions? A commercial pilot may
carry persons or property for compensation or hire, and may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire, as stated in
FAR 61.139 (14 CFR 61.139). If the pilots are not already employees of
the Probation Department and are hired as independent contractors for
the purpose of providing a transportation service, the requirements of
FAR Part (135 Air Taxi/Commercial Operator) apply. These persons would
not be considered as executive, or business aviation pilots engaged in
Part 91 operation.

Sincerely,

DEWITTE T. LAWSON, JR.
Regional Counsel

cc:
William Sabourin
Deputy County Counsel
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Flymeariver said:
So how will the FAA come to find out those turnips were sold? I doubt the FAA has pitchforks ready at every airport and farmers market just waiting to catch people. Then again...I am not a CFI or FAA rep....just a curious person that hasn't got the impression in the talks I have had with real FAA reps that they are out to get us. The knowledge is nice to see though Ron...just have a hard time thinking the big wolf is at the door.
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Never said there was a wolf at the door, just answer the original question of whether or not it was legal.
 
Flymeariver said:
So how will the FAA come to find out those turnips were sold? I doubt the FAA has pitchforks ready at every airport and farmers market just waiting to catch people. Then again...I am not a CFI or FAA rep....just a curious person that hasn't got the impression in the talks I have had with real FAA reps that they are out to get us. The knowledge is nice to see though Ron...just have a hard time thinking the big wolf is at the door.
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I can tell you from real experience gained on the other side of the fence that no Inspector in his right mind would pursue something like this, and even if he attempted it he could never get an EIR opened, it would die right there on the managers desk.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Good luck on getting anyone in the FAA to pursue a "significant enforcement action" on something like the proposed turnip operation. The first Inspector that takes something like this to his FLM to open an EIR will get his work program re-evaluated for having too much time on his hands. :rolleyes:
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You may well be right, but that doesn't change the answer to the original question of whether or not this would be legal per the regulations, only whether or not you'll get in trouble if you do it. And I don't see this as any different than the situation in the Mangiamele letter -- it's not legal, but it's unlikely anything will happen to you if you do it. But the fact that you might not get caught or violated if you did is not going to change my answer as to the legality of doing it -- that would take the Chief Counsel saying I'm wrong, and I'm perfectly happy to hear that if someone takes the time and effort to get that answer.
 
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Ron Levy said:
As I said earlier, if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to write to the Chief Counsel and get them to say I've got it wrong.
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PLEASE DONT WRITE TO THE FAA CHIEF COUNSEL FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF SETTLING AN INTERNET ARGUMENT!!! :eek: :hairraise: :mad2: :yikes:
 
Palmpilot said:
PLEASE DONT WRITE TO THE FAA CHIEF COUNSEL FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF SETTLING AN INTERNET ARGUMENT!!! :eek: :hairraise: :mad2: :yikes:
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No argument there -- if Mangiamele hadn't written that letter, there's a lot we would still be doing. Unless, of course, that request will allow people to do things they otherwise would think isn't legal, such as instrument instructors logging their trainees' approaches for currency or CFI practical tests counting for flight reviews.

But as I said some time ago, if you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question, and don't insult the person providing the answer just because you find the answer inconvenient. If you're not going to alter your behavior as a result of hearing that what you intend to do isn't legal, why did you ask that question at all? :dunno:
 
Ron, give it up. You aren't convincing anyone and you are just frustrating yourself.
 
I'm kinda digg'n the whole turnip farming gig.....bet the Chief Counsel will too. :yes:
 
I don't know whether a private pilot can legally make the proposed flights or not, but from the standpoint of understanding the issue better, could those who think it would be illegal give some examples of flights that a private pilot COULD make under 61.113(b)?
 
Ron Levy said:
No argument there -- if Mangiamele hadn't written that letter, there's a lot we would still be doing. Unless, of course, that request will allow people to do things they otherwise would think isn't legal, such as instrument instructors logging their trainees' approaches for currency or CFI practical tests counting for flight reviews.

But as I said some time ago, if you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question, and don't insult the person providing the answer just because you find the answer inconvenient. If you're not going to alter your behavior as a result of hearing that what you intend to do isn't legal, why did you ask that question at all? :dunno:
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Why not?

This is not like going to an attorney's office to ask a question and then arguing with the attorney. This is a discussion forum, not an attorney's office. I think most of us are here because we enjoy discussing aviation-related topics. That being the case, I think most of us are happy to have people pose questions that result in lively and interesting discussions.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't know whether a private pilot can legally make the proposed flights or not, but from the standpoint of understanding the issue better, could those who think it would be illegal give some examples of flights that a private pilot COULD make under 61.113(b)?
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Sure.

You're a computer technician, and your company needs you to go fix a client's computer in the next state. They tell you to go do it, so you take your plane and fly yourself there and back. When you're done, you get reimbursed for the operating cost of the flight plus your regular pay.

You're a lawyer for your firm. You have to go two states over for a deposition. You and your secretary (who will record the deposition) get in your plane, and you fly it there and back. You collect half the expenses of the flight from your secretary, who gets reimbursed for that by the firm. You claim no expenses for your share of the flight (since you had a passenger -- see Mangiamele) but you still get your regular pay for the day.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the purpose is to learn, I'm OK with that. If the purpose is merely to start an argument so you can insult and denigrate anyone who gives you an answer you don't like, I'm not OK with that.
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I hope you don't think those are the only two purposes that are possible. :rolleyes:

This is not a classroom, and it's for sure not a classroom that you're in charge of.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Good luck on getting anyone in the FAA to pursue a "significant enforcement action" on something like the proposed turnip operation. The first Inspector that takes something like this to his FLM to open an EIR will get his work program re-evaluated for having too much time on his hands. :rolleyes:
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It's too bad the Chief Counsel's boss hasn't implemented similar procedures. Hahaha.
 
I just wasted my time reading this thread.

For whom should I pursure legal action against in terms of financial compensation for said lost time?
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
Oh.....:D

e892.jpg
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Went bear hunting on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska once. There is a little town of Craig that is kind of the hub of the island, Groceries, car rental, service station, mechanics, bank, etc.

We pull into town and this old guy that looks like Mr Haney comes up and asks what we need. For the rest of the week, no matter what we needed, "Mr Haney" had an affiliated business that could provide the service.

We still refer to him as Mr Haney.
 
denverpilot said:
He said he was delivering the goods for free either way. Car or airplane. No additional goodwill for either one. Wash.
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I am not sure why goodwill from a business is different than goodwill from my sister in law when I bring the aforementioned birthday cake. I really don't like my sister in law, but I try to make nice as she does buy some of my turnips each year.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I am not sure why goodwill from a business is different than goodwill from my sister in law when I bring the aforementioned birthday cake. I really don't like my sister in law, but I try to make nice as she does buy some of my turnips each year.
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Do you have pictures of sister in law eating that cake? Perhaps that will determine if the CC will hunt you down.
 
Ron Levy said:
. You're still not getting the fundamental concept -- that the issue is compensation from another party in return for providing air transportation.
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But it was earlier declared I couldn't go fetch a part for my turnip harvester across the state. I get no compensation from another party to fetch a part.



Ron Levy said:
.
Only if you have a business relationship with that "date", in which case you have other legal problems starting with solicitation of prostitution.
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I like think that dinner and a nice bottle of wine does not make a woman a prostitute, but, rather, someone who has lowering standards after alcohol.


Ron Levy said:
.
Again, only if you have a business relationship with your niece, as the concept of "goodwill" only applies to business relationships.
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Her mom, my sister-in-law buys my turnips.


Ron Levy said:
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To be honest, I'm getting a bit frustrated here. It seems like some folks are doing their best to deliberately misunderstand the fundamental concepts I've explained repeatedly in order to try to ridicule the FAA's rules by suggesting those rules are being violated when no such violation exists in the actions they purport as being illegal.
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Not to deliberately misunderstand, but , to attempt to further understanding. I have learned much from your contributions, thank you.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't see why not -- there's no compensation involved because they aren't paying anything to have you visit.
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Aren't my sample turnips considered property! How can I fly with property?
 
Ron Levy said:
Sure -- as long as nobody is compensating you for doing that. And that's covered in another interpretation.
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Surprised at your banner towing answers.

Towing Banner 1 is not incidental, is foreseeable, and involves flying the banner (property). Marketing my turnips and building brand awareness is huge.
 
Flymeariver said:
So how will the FAA come to find out those turnips were sold? I doubt the FAA has pitchforks ready at every airport and farmers market just waiting to catch people. Then again...I am not a CFI or FAA rep....just a curious person that hasn't got the impression in the talks I have had with real FAA reps that they are out to get us. The knowledge is nice to see though Ron...just have a hard time thinking the big wolf is at the door.
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I was hoping that the restaurant would have a big promotion for their Turnip Soup with the freshest turnips on earth, flown in fresh for the festival.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I was hoping that the restaurant would have a big promotion for their Turnip Soup with the freshest turnips on earth, flown in fresh for the festival.
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Well in that case..... They don't have to say who flew those gourmet turnips in lol
 
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