Another alleged drunk airline pilot

azure said:
Substance abuse, from everything I've read, is orthogonal to low income, i.e. whatever correlation there is between the two problems is weak.
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Thanks for the new word, it has the aura of higher learning. Any thoughts on what might correlate to substance abuse if not poverty?
 
James331 said:
When one looks around their community and sees no hope, I have a hard time faulting them for using drugs to put their head into a "better place". Illusion or not, right or wrong.
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I sympathize with your compassion, but it is a mistake to believe that hope is limited to economic prosperity.
 
Cooter said:
Thanks for the new word, it has the aura of higher learning. Any thoughts on what might correlate to substance abuse if not poverty?
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Substance abuse is brought on by many things, peer pressure, the need to feel accepted, depression, looking for an escape, curiosity...
 
Cooter said:
Thanks for the new word, it has the aura of higher learning. Any thoughts on what might correlate to substance abuse if not poverty?
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Substance abuse can be for many reasons, but substance abuse is not the same as addiction.

Addiction can involve substance abuse or ritual abuse or many other things that become compulsive. (Professionals are still arguing over what things can be or not.) Addiction is generally driven by the need to cover emotional pain and is a self feeding cycle of ruling pain by the addictive behavior, feeling guilt or remorse over that behavior, driving the next cycle, etc.

For those who say "I can't imagine how somebody could work so hard to get their ratings and then throw it all away." you are correct. You can't imagine what it's like to live in the mind of an addict. Be thankful. Under the compulsion, an addict is a monomaniac. NOTHING enters into the thought process other than how to get their next "fix". They will throw away their job, their family even their lives. If you asked them, they would tell you truthfully that they don't want to do all that, but it doesn't enter their consciousness at the moment. Many are smart, talented people.

John
 
I'm in/around the poverty line and I can't afford drugs - I am too busy trying to pay for flying!

Jokes aside though, fiance worked with substance abuse and mental health kids for a while. That is a deep, dark, and truly scary place. A good amount were forced into substance abuse, sometimes by parents. Made to do terrible things to keep their parents high.

Another handful try to kill themselves...smuggling wire hangars/sharp metal under clothes if they get access to it, some trying to drown themselves in sinks, some trying to hang themselves...

A really dark place. I could not imagine what they have been through but i am glad there are people to help.

I grew up under a substance abuser, I didn't realize the gravity of the situation until i was about 4-5 and was asked to tell her when to turn the car because she was too drunk to see it herself. I was too short to see over the dash well and I called it too early and went through a ditch into an airport fence. People nearby heard the crash and came out and helped us get the car unstuck. The airport fence damage was on the front page paper asking for help finding who did it. It went downhill from there.

Would not wish it on anyone.
 
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Cooter said:
I sympathize with your compassion, but it is a mistake to believe that hope is limited to economic prosperity.
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Limited, no, hugely dependent, yes.
 
Cooter said:
That's not been my experience. I've spent a lot of time in Germany and never been served a warm beer. I'm naturally inclined to avoid GI hangouts so I'm not sure how I missed it.
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I wouldn't characterize the beer generally as "warm" necessarily but in my experience it has just been a little bit colder than room temperature, not ice cold. But it may be a regional thing too.
 
Art VanDelay said:
So we should divide everything up and distribute it out evenly ?
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Chit no, guess you didn't read what I said eh?

Government is the problem

But we should scale the government back VASTLY, eliminate the IRS, remove most victimless "crimes" or change them to small sub $200 tickets, let people keep the money THEY work for, allow folks to work their ways out of the ghetto, not tax them back into it, give people hope, bring back apprenticeships for kids, high school shouldn't be about teaching math to a level most will never use and limiting historical education to censored crap, it should prepaid kids for life, not just teach them to be the governments bioatch.

It's interesting, the farmers kids I see around here, they are raised to make their own, they work in the fields from a young age, are far away enough from most government types to enjoy the freedoms our parents had, learn that what they put in they get back, and I don't see hardly any of them slowly kill themselves with chronic drug use, sneak a few brews, or have a couple drags of a joint in the woods while camping, sure, but they see their future and they want it, more of those country kids do quite well, even compared to the rich children living in the city cesspools, and waaaay better than the ones from ghettos.
 
People have various preferences of where to live. Some would like to live in BFE. Not me. When I was a kid growing up in suburbia, I had the romantic notion of living on a farm or ranch. Looking back as an adult, do I wish I had? No. But there are definitely people who enjoy that kind of thing. Different strokes...

As far as addiction goes, it hits all socioeconomic groups. But those in some groups may find it easier to get help than others.
 
James331 said:
Chit no, guess you didn't read what I said eh?

Government is the problem

But we should scale the government back VASTLY, eliminate the IRS, remove most victimless "crimes" or change them to small sub $200 tickets, let people keep the money THEY work for, allow folks to work their ways out of the ghetto, not tax them back into it, give people hope, bring back apprenticeships for kids, high school shouldn't be about teaching math to a level most will never use and limiting historical education to censored crap, it should prepaid kids for life, not just teach them to be the governments bioatch.

It's interesting, the farmers kids I see around here, they are raised to make their own, they work in the fields from a young age, are far away enough from most government types to enjoy the freedoms our parents had, learn that what they put in they get back, and I don't see hardly any of them slowly kill themselves with chronic drug use, sneak a few brews, or have a couple drags of a joint in the woods while camping, sure, but they see their future and they want it, more of those country kids do quite well, even compared to the rich children living in the city cesspools, and waaaay better than the ones from ghettos.
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Do you feel a large number truly want to work themselves out of the ghetto ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Do you feel a large number truly want to work themselves out of the ghetto ?
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How many people enjoy living in the ghetto?





la-shooting.jpg


public-housing.jpg
 
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Sac Arrow said:
I wouldn't characterize the beer generally as "warm" necessarily but in my experience it has just been a little bit colder than room temperature, not ice cold. But it may be a regional thing too.
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Ok, maybe my expectations were off. Slightly cooler than room temp I have experienced, actual room temp I have not.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Man, you need to get out the sticks and talk to some big city social workers. Ever heard of "The Cycle" ? I ain't talkin no Harley either.
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Ahhh, ask the opinion of people who have a vested interest in big government and poor people.



Cooter said:
That's a totally different question than what he asked.
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It's the exact same question
 
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MauleSkinner said:
No...the word "work" was in the original question. They may not like it, but do they want to put in the effort to get out?
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If they thought they could, yeah, but they know they can't, they'll take a hit getting off the poverty line, we've subsidized poverty here, and we have huge taxes, they try to work out of those chit holes, they'll loose all their subsidized housing/medical/food stamps/etc and the money they make, between all the taxes they'll now have to pay, they'll take a large hit in their already horrible quality of life.

Unless they can make a jump from the ghetto to a >$60,000 job, which ain't likely, the government has it set where they'll never leave the ghetto unless it's in the back of a jail bus or a corners van.
 
I was doing some work in view of our local "ghetto." There were several teenagers interested in what I was doing and they were hanging out watching me (no idea why they weren't in school at the time). I started a friendly conversation with a couple of them and eventually the topic of all the trash on the ground came up. There were bags of trash surrounding empty dumpsters and I asked them why they didn't pick it up to make their neighborhood look better. They asked if I was going to pay them to do it. One continued and said something like, "you can't make this place look better."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
James331 said:
Ahhh, ask the opinion of people who have a vested interest in big government and poor people.





It's the exact same question
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Let me give you a personally observed example from here in South Florida ;
My wife works in the ER of a large hospital along with a nice AA lady named Kiki. Kiki is a medical assistant that works part time. When asked if she would like to go full time or pick up extra hours Kiki exuberantly responded "NO". When my wife asked her why she explained - if she works full time she would no longer qualify for federal housing and additionally the payments she receives for being a single mother would cease.

The whole single mother thing is an interesting case in itself. Kiki wasn't abandoned by a once loving husband - no. Kiki has never been married and does not want to be married as it would effect the amount of payments she receives. Kiki instead CHOSE to be single mother not once but twice so she could receive this money.

In short we have not one but several generations that don't have ANY reason to want to work. Having been raised on a small dairy farm this is beyond comprehension by me. I don't know how your going to fix something that's this deeply ingrained. If you shutoff the money flow they're just gonna riot and burn their own stores and neighborhoods down as we have seen in the recent past.
 
Well you proved my point.

They might have a tantrum, fine, but they will also be able to keep their money, meaning though Kiki won't get a discounted place to live, she won't need it with the huge take home pay increase she would have, plus she'll quickly find that making more money gives her more joy, and she'll be able to work her way up, without the government disadvantaging her for doing so.


This country is a lot like a fat kid eating cake, what the tubby bastard needs is exercise and a good diet, now initially piggie will have a fit being pulled away from his cake and favorite indent he made in the couch, but in a short time he'll know joys he never knew existed from living like how a real human was intended to live.
 
James331 said:
Well you proved my point.

They might have a tantrum, fine, but they will also be able to keep their money, meaning though Kiki won't get a discounted place to live, she won't need it with the huge take home pay increase she would have, plus she'll quickly find that making more money gives her more joy, and she'll be able to work her way up, without the government disadvantaging her for doing so.


This country is a lot like a fat kid eating cake, what the tubby bastard needs is exercise and a good diet, now initially piggie will have a fit being pulled away from his cake and favorite indent he made in the couch, but in a short time he'll know joys he never knew existed from living like how a real human was intended to live.
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No if the provided food is suddenly taken away from the kid he will find other ways to satisfy his cravings while still doing as little work as possible.


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And he will fail, starvation is a great motivator.




"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
-Benjamin Franklin




"Not all the baby turtles make it to the ocean, but that's ok"
-some guy on the Internet



Long and short, government never helped anyone out of their poverty, if anything government encourages poverty, as it is in their own best interests.
 
Kevin16587 said:
There were bags of trash surrounding empty dumpsters and I asked them why they didn't pick it up to make their neighborhood look better. They asked if I was going to pay them to do it. One continued and said something like, "you can't make this place look better."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Had a similar experience many moons ago in Valdosta GA. I was in the Air Force and a bunch of us volunteered over a weekend to go downtown and clear overgrown areas, and build a ballpark. We did all that and were raking the infield and removing rocks and junk. Kids were watching (ball field was for them now) us rake and we offered them rakes to help. Whatya gonna pay us was their response. Just shook our heads and went back to raking. Sad, and this was the late 60s. Probably shoot and rob you now.
 
I'll never understand that mentality, was raised differently, I guess. For years I've carried a kitchen trash bag with me when I walk my neighborhood.
 
When I was a Junior in High School, my dad was laid off from his job. As far as I know he never even considered applying for unemployment (which he would have been entitled to). He started his own business. (To be fair, he was a skilled electrician and had his own hand tools.) For the first couple of years he did all sorts of construction work to make ends meet. And continued as an electrical contractor until he semi-retired. Then retired.

When I was in my early 20's (and married) I was out of work. I never even considered applying for unemployment (though I was entitled to it). I didn't start my own business, but I might have. But (here's the point) that's what I was raised to expect.

When we have 2nd, 3rd and beyond generations where all they've known is welfare, child support and subsidized housing, how are they supposed to 1) think they should fend for themselves, 2) have any idea how to fend for themselves? That (to me) is the real tragedy of how we deal with the poor. They never get exposed to anybody who's successful except criminals, sports figures and celebrities.

John
 
jsstevens said:
But (here's the point) that's what I was raised to expect.

When we have 2nd, 3rd and beyond generations where all they've known is welfare, child support and subsidized housing, how are they supposed to 1) think they should fend for themselves, 2) have any idea how to fend for themselves? That (to me) is the real tragedy of how we deal with the poor. They never get exposed to anybody who's successful except criminals, sports figures and celebrities.

John
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THIS! I've used that same argument about the folks trapped in New Orleans during Katrina. They didn't have a clue because everything was done for them during their lives.
 
James331 said:
And he will fail, starvation is a great motivator.




"I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
-Benjamin Franklin




"Not all the baby turtles make it to the ocean, but that's ok"
-some guy on the Internet



Long and short, government never helped anyone out of their poverty, if anything government encourages poverty, as it is in their own best interests.
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Problem is, the current party in the white house wants it that way. The bigger problem is those that vote for that party actually believe that is the better way, yet those people have no clue what socialism is all about.
 
Zeldman said:
Problem is, the current party in the white house wants it that way. The bigger problem is those that vote for that party actually believe that is the better way, yet those people have no clue what socialism is all about.
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I hate to say this and I'm going to try to make it as non-partisan and non-political as possible and then I'll shut up...

The other party doesn't exactly stop doing it when they have majorities.

There isn't a party out there that isn't about spending more than they take in and growing government. They just grow different parts.

Neither ever kills something to pay for something else.
 
You can make it here. And make it starting from anywhere. Like a two room shack with no plumbing in Appalachia, living with drug addicted relatives, shooting up in front if you. And a couple stints in foster care, then rescued by a relative, with help from "welfare" for a while. Options all over the place, like enlisting, doing a tour, getting a degree using VA benefits. And being driven to NOT fall back into the quagmire.

There are ways out of poverty here; it's just not easy, and not nearly as easy as just going along like those around you. . .
 
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