Another ADS-B Question

The way I am thinking is someone is going to make a transponder and antenna drop in that does ADS-B for a lot less than you can do it now.

And/or, the date will slip.

Keep in mind, you will still be able to fly 2500' AGL or lower without it.

It is the "surveillance" part of ADSB that everyone doesn't like. Who wants to be "surveilled"? And how does such surveillance make the system safer? This may be changed. We can always hope.

So, like most, I think its worth waiting. The cutting edge of technology is also the bleeding edge of technology. Somehow, someway, there is going to be a reasonable less expensive solution.
 
colorado just summed up the average GA thought process (which is valid) thus pointing out the likelihood that NextGen will not roll out on time. It is a shame as it is a good system with its primary flaw being lack of management/leadership.
 
I am guessing that the prices will drop after the being producing more equipment for the 2020 mandate. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost is below $2,000 by the time 2020 rolls around..
 
coloradobluesky said:
The way I am thinking is someone is going to make a transponder and antenna drop in that does ADS-B for a lot less than you can do it now.

And/or, the date will slip.

Keep in mind, you will still be able to fly 2500' AGL or lower without it.

It is the "surveillance" part of ADSB that everyone doesn't like. Who wants to be "surveilled"? And how does such surveillance make the system safer? This may be changed. We can always hope.

So, like most, I think its worth waiting. The cutting edge of technology is also the bleeding edge of technology. Somehow, someway, there is going to be a reasonable less expensive solution.
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Can you, or anyone else clarify this 2500' ceiling and which airspace it applies to? What I'm trying to ask is this. Given a requirement to fly within the mode C ring of a class B like PHX or DEN, but not into the class B itself, will GA pilots on VFR flights be allowed to enter mode C veil WITHOUT any ADS-B out signal and only a mode C transponder reporting? Is this also the case with the class C where no entry into the C space is needed? the 2500' sounds like an AGL standard, and I believe all altitudes in class B and C are reported as MSL. How would this work then?
 
Firefighter_324 said:
I am guessing that the prices will drop after the being producing more equipment for the 2020 mandate. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost is below $2,000 by the time 2020 rolls around..
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Rising demand is usually not good for lower prices
 
The 2020 mandate is going to be delayed. It is a numbers game. According to an EAA article last month, avionics shops are only doing about 25% the rate of ads-b installs necessary to meet 2020. There's no way to surge that #, there just aren't enough shops.

:nonod:
 
I hope you are right. The FAA, according to their own reporting, has done their part by getting the system in place. Trouble is that ATC is not using it at all. A friend that recently had ADS-B installed in his Archer wanted to test it out and ask ATC if he was broadcasting. The response was that "we don't have that turned on, hang on". He found out he was not broadcasting a second attempt a week later it worked but ATC still had to turn it on. In true government fashion I can see ATC getting into the this mid 2019 and finding out there are lots of bugs in the system. That may delay the mandate.

I don't see the FAA delaying the mandate because we, aircraft owners waited too late to get it installed.
 
tmyers said:
I hope you are right. The FAA, according to their own reporting, has done their part by getting the system in place. Trouble is that ATC is not using it at all. A friend that recently had ADS-B installed in his Archer wanted to test it out and ask ATC if he was broadcasting. The response was that "we don't have that turned on, hang on". He found out he was not broadcasting a second attempt a week later it worked but ATC still had to turn it on. In true government fashion I can see ATC getting into the this mid 2019 and finding out there are lots of bugs in the system. That may delay the mandate.

I don't see the FAA delaying the mandate because we, aircraft owners waited too late to get it installed.
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The FAA has not "done their part" yet, and I prove it on every flight. The system is not working anywhere near properly...yet.

BTW: ATC has no ability to turn anything on or off WRT ADS-B, at least not here in South Texas. Or, if they do, they aren't admitting it.
 
Datadriver said:
The 2020 mandate is going to be delayed. It is a numbers game. According to an EAA article last month, avionics shops are only doing about 25% the rate of ads-b installs necessary to meet 2020. There's no way to surge that #, there just aren't enough shops.

:nonod:
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No it won't be delayed, there will be a number of planes that don't upgrade. Actually I can see it being moved in....imagine this comes across your cable news network:
A Boeing 737 collided with another airplane in Orlando Fl, 178 are dead, with 57 of them children. They were on their way to Disney for a holiday. The other plane was a small single engine plane with 1 aboard. Govt authorities said it did not have the necessary electronic safety upgrades that will be required in 2020 that could have prevented this. There are countless airplanes of this type that the rich used to entertain themselves that do not have the proper equipment, and put innocent lives at risk every day. Friends of the single engine pilot said he was going to wait until 2020 in hopes that the safety equipment requirement would be delayed....
 
Jay Honeck said:
The FAA has not "done their part" yet, and I prove it on every flight. The system is not working anywhere near properly...yet.

BTW: ATC has no ability to turn anything on or off WRT ADS-B, at least not here in South Texas. Or, if they do, they aren't admitting it.
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Do they have a written plan for implementation of the system, and training of the users? Seems it the infrastructure is in place they would already be doing that.
 
teejayevans said:
No it won't be delayed, there will be a number of planes that don't upgrade. Actually I can see it being moved in....imagine this comes across your cable news network:
A Boeing 737 collided with another airplane in Orlando Fl, 178 are dead, with 57 of them children. They were on their way to Disney for a holiday. The other plane was a small single engine plane with 1 aboard. Govt authorities said it did not have the necessary electronic safety upgrades that will be required in 2020 that could have prevented this. There are countless airplanes of this type that the rich used to entertain themselves that do not have the proper equipment, and put innocent lives at risk every day. Friends of the single engine pilot said he was going to wait until 2020 in hopes that the safety equipment requirement would be delayed....
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What equipment would that be?
The Mode C transponder that lets ATC know exactly where you are and how high you are, or the ADS B that lets ATC know exactly where you are and how high you are - but doesn't trigger the TCAS on the 737.

Get real.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The FAA has not "done their part" yet, and I prove it on every flight. The system is not working anywhere near properly...yet.

BTW: ATC has no ability to turn anything on or off WRT ADS-B, at least not here in South Texas. Or, if they do, they aren't admitting it.
Click to expand...

Have you done a compliance check? The FAA provides a free service to let you know how you are doing. There are some aspects of compliance that can cause spotty operation. With your current installation as described, it can't be compliant but without knowing what your system is setup for, it might well be your equipment that is the problem. I have a compliant system and have not seen the kinds of problems you describe. I have seen many issues with other "Compliant installations", so it is not necessarily all a compliance issue.

If you PM me the details of a recent flight including the date and N number, particularly one that had issues, I can have a compliance report run on the flight and provide it back to you. You can also do this yourself if you don't want me involved.

I personally have a Stratus and ForeFlight. It provides me with a fairly full decode of what my system is doing by outputting the raw data in real time and indicates whether or not a required parameter is in or out of compliance via color (green is compliant and red is not compliant).
 
docmirror said:
Can you, or anyone else clarify this 2500' ceiling and which airspace it applies to? What I'm trying to ask is this. Given a requirement to fly within the mode C ring of a class B like PHX or DEN, but not into the class B itself, will GA pilots on VFR flights be allowed to enter mode C veil WITHOUT any ADS-B out signal and only a mode C transponder reporting? Is this also the case with the class C where no entry into the C space is needed? the 2500' sounds like an AGL standard, and I believe all altitudes in class B and C are reported as MSL. How would this work then?
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The 2500 feet is my proposal for modifying the 2020 rule and does not currently exist in class B or the 30 NM veil. The current rule allows aircraft to operate in the mandate airspace with the permission of ATC, so very occasional use might be possible without the ADS-B Out equipment, at least according to the rule.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What equipment would that be?
The Mode C transponder that lets ATC know exactly where you are and how high you are, or the ADS B that lets ATC know exactly where you are and how high you are - but doesn't trigger the TCAS on the 737.

Get real.
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The point is, is won't matter to average person who knows nothing about aviation, they won't care about the subtle differences between Mode C, S or ADS-B, they will just know that some yahoo collided with plane full of children, somebody must be to blame, and something must be done.
And yesterday I was flying, the tower could not pick up a plane on their scope (no transponder response, no radar echo), so no, ATC doesn't always know exactly where you are.
 
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teejayevans said:
The point is, is won't matter to average person who knows nothing about aviation, they won't care about the subtle differences between Mode C, S or ADS-B, they will just know that some yahoo collided with plane full of children, somebody must be to blame, and something must be done.
And yesterday I was flying, the tower could not pick up a plane on their scope (no transponder response, no radar echo), so no, ATC doesn't always know exactly where you are.
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How would installing ADS-B change any of this?
 
tmyers said:
Do they have a written plan for implementation of the system, and training of the users? Seems it the infrastructure is in place they would already be doing that.
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For most locations, it is still premature. Although the GBT infrastructure is in place, the software upgrades for the TRACON and Centers are still in progress. Some locations have it, for example it is used over the Gulf of Mexico. With a few exceptions, controllers really don't have a need for it now.

Only compliant systems will be able to utilize ADS-B for ATC purposes. There just aren't that many such systems that are compliant in the US. Those that are not compliant, will most likely still be able to use the GBT and TISB infrastructure, but the FAA is not required to provide the service. However, they do provide it to non compliant users at this point in time. A certified system in an aircraft is not permitted to display traffic if certain non compliance conditions exist.
 
John,

Can you elaborate on the FAA ADSB Compliance Testing? How and where is this done/arranged?
 
John Collins said:
Have you done a compliance check? The FAA provides a free service to let you know how you are doing. There are some aspects of compliance that can cause spotty operation. With your current installation as described, it can't be compliant but without knowing what your system is setup for, it might well be your equipment that is the problem. I have a compliant system and have not seen the kinds of problems you describe. I have seen many issues with other "Compliant installations", so it is not necessarily all a compliance issue.

If you PM me the details of a recent flight including the date and N number, particularly one that had issues, I can have a compliance report run on the flight and provide it back to you. You can also do this yourself if you don't want me involved.

I personally have a Stratus and ForeFlight. It provides me with a fairly full decode of what my system is doing by outputting the raw data in real time and indicates whether or not a required parameter is in or out of compliance via color (green is compliant and red is not compliant).
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I have had the compliance report run by the FAA. My system fails, of course, because my GPS is not "certified". It is otherwise sound.

And, of course, remember that we are running two entirely independent ADS-B receivers. When both fail to show traffic and/or weather, it's a fair bet that the system, or a ground station, is down.

The system ain't ready for primetime, and -- for the moment, anyway -- no one in day to day FAA ops cares.
 
Jay Honeck said:
And, of course, remember that we are running two entirely independent ADS-B receivers. When both fail to show traffic and/or weather, it's a fair bet that the system, or a ground station, is down.

The system ain't ready for primetime, and -- for the moment, anyway -- no one in day to day FAA ops cares.
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Or it could be two non certified portable receivers with totally separate issues. My experience so far is to suspect the airborne equipment, particularly if it is portable. One thing you can do, is ask for a compliance test for the date and time of any anomaly. They will know if there was an outage at the same time and if your aircraft was in the GBT service list for TISB or not. These portable systems are not that easy to test and I suspect many if not most have bugs in them.
 
lolachampcar said:
John,

Can you elaborate on the FAA ADSB Compliance Testing? How and where is this done/arranged?
Click to expand...

Send an email to 9-AWA-AFS-300-ADSB-AvionicsCheck@faa.gov

Put the N number, the type of ADS-B equipment and the position source being used. Let them know the date and rough time of the flight. In anywhere from a few hours to a few days, they will email you a compliance report. It is still over 5 years until the rule kicks in, but if you already have something installed for ADS-B Out, they can let you know how you are doing. Right now it is no harm, no foul. I have used it for a good dozen aircraft so far, the majority have had issues. The FAA claims 80 % error rate, mostly for position source, but other configuration issues as well. Some because they just don't broadcast anything.
 
John Collins said:
Or it could be two non certified portable receivers with totally separate issues. My experience so far is to suspect the airborne equipment, particularly if it is portable. One thing you can do, is ask for a compliance test for the date and time of any anomaly. They will know if there was an outage at the same time and if your aircraft was in the GBT service list for TISB or not. These portable systems are not that easy to test and I suspect many if not most have bugs in them.
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I would put the odds of two separate, redundant receivers -- one panel mounted, one portable -- failing simultaneously at somewhere near zero. YMMV, but we see it on EVERY FLIGHT.

I have received an FAA compliance report on my ADS-B OUT system. It was of no help in troubleshooting reception issues, which will require real-time, two-way reporting from the controlling agency.

In other words, when traffic disappears from both of our on-board displays, as happens regularly, we need to be able to ask the controller "What is the current status of the ground stations in our area?" and "What are you seeing from my ADS-B transmitter (in other words "Can you see me? Yes/no.")

Additionally, NOTAMs listing the on-going status of ground stations, and the ability for a controller to accept PIREPs of ground station outages, will be required for the ADS-B system to work 100%.

Until the FAA has a system of real-time, two-way status reporting in place (at least as good as they have currently with Mode C) my advice to all is to WAIT before spending your money. You will save yourself a good amount of frustration.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I would put the odds of two separate, redundant receivers -- one panel mounted, one portable -- failing simultaneously at somewhere near zero. YMMV, but we see it on EVERY FLIGHT.

I have received an FAA compliance report on my ADS-B OUT system. It was of no help in troubleshooting reception issues, which will require real-time, two-way reporting from the controlling agency.

In other words, when traffic disappears from both of our on-board displays, as happens regularly, we need to be able to ask the controller "What is the current status of the ground stations in our area?" and "What are you seeing from my ADS-B transmitter (in other words "Can you see me? Yes/no.")

Additionally, NOTAMs listing the on-going status of ground stations, and the ability for a controller to accept PIREPs of ground station outages, will be required for the ADS-B system to work 100%.

Until the FAA has a system of real-time, two-way status reporting in place (at least as good as they have currently with Mode C) my advice to all is to WAIT before spending your money. You will save yourself a good amount of frustration.
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From the bugs I have seen, I would rate it at 80% likely that a portable unit has serious bugs and are flaky. I agree we need better NOTAM service on these systems and have an open issue at ATPAC on that exact topic. One thing that I don't see implemented is the built in design that permits the receiver to know when they are receiving TISB service and from what towers. If you are not in the list, you won't see any TISB or ADSR. Seems to me that this information would be invaluable if it were presented to the pilot. I for one would certainly like to know if the reason the traffic display is empty is because I am not being serviced by the ground station. It would then be relatively easy to call in a PIREP. A certified unit has a summary indication, but you don't know which tower, but at least you know if you are getting the TISB service or not.
 
John Collins said:
From the bugs I have seen, I would rate it at 80% likely that a portable unit has serious bugs and are flaky. I agree we need better NOTAM service on these systems and have an open issue at ATPAC on that exact topic. One thing that I don't see implemented is the built in design that permits the receiver to know when they are receiving TISB service and from what towers. If you are not in the list, you won't see any TISB or ADSR. Seems to me that this information would be invaluable if it were presented to the pilot. I for one would certainly like to know if the reason the traffic display is empty is because I am not being serviced by the ground station. It would then be relatively easy to call in a PIREP. A certified unit has a summary indication, but you don't know which tower, but at least you know if you are getting the TISB service or not.
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The GRT Horizon HXr has a display that shows how many ground stations it is receiving. When it drops to "0", it would be great to be able to query ATC about it, to determine the status of the station(s) in our sector.

In fact, until we have that ability, I won't trust the system.
 
I have never understood the fact that a transmitting station needs to be woke up to transmit. Seems even the electronics of those systems would be more reliable if left on.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I would put the odds of two separate, redundant receivers -- one panel mounted, one portable -- failing simultaneously at somewhere near zero. YMMV, but we see it on EVERY FLIGHT.
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Sounds like an interference problem in your aircraft which affects both receivers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
teejayevans said:
No it won't be delayed, there will be a number of planes that don't upgrade.
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Not many government programs start on time; i.e. Obamacare.
Pretty sure that Joe Senator's Jet or Hollywood Donor Dave's Gulfstream ain't getting upgraded in time. A loud howl of protest will go out from this influential class of people and it will be delayed, or better yet certain types of aircraft "exempted".

:wink2:
 
Datadriver said:
Pretty sure that Joe Senator's Jet or Hollywood Donor Dave's Gulfstream ain't getting upgraded in time.
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Those planes will get to the head of the line when they are upgraded and the owners won't know or care about the trivial cost (for them) or even what ADSB is.

Just wishful thinking about the 2020 deadline being delayed. Won't happen because there's no need to delay it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Datadriver said:
Not many government programs start on time; i.e. Obamacare.

Pretty sure that Joe Senator's Jet or Hollywood Donor Dave's Gulfstream ain't getting upgraded in time. A loud howl of protest will go out from this influential class of people and it will be delayed, or better yet certain types of aircraft "exempted".



:wink2:
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A. OC did start on time
B. Only Large donors get passes, the big corporations want this: the airlines, the avionics companies.....you are not privilege class
C. There is what, a 100,000 plane owners affected? Much less than that are vocal opponents...you are a bug, in 2020 you will be hit by a windshield.
 
teejayevans said:
A. OC did start on time
B. Only Large donors get passes, the big corporations want this: the airlines, the avionics companies.....you are not privilege class
C. There is what, a 100,000 plane owners affected? Much less than that are vocal opponents...you are a bug, in 2020 you will be hit by a windshield.
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A very real possibility. I'm betting on 2020.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone was struck by a fit of common sense and allowed portable WAAS GPS's as the position source for VFR flight, which would save most of the VFR types 1/2 the cost.
 
kyleb said:
A very real possibility. I'm betting on 2020.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone was struck by a fit of common sense and allowed portable WAAS GPS's as the position source for VFR flight, which would save most of the VFR types 1/2 the cost.
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I don't think this would be common sense at all. I would rather the aircraft not be equipped at all than to have a non certified position source. Remember this is for ATC Surveillance and not for traffic or weather in the cockpit. Other countries that have ADS-B don't have any of the GBT services that we in the US have, such as TISB and FISB.
 
kyleb said:
A very real possibility. I'm betting on 2020.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone was struck by a fit of common sense and allowed portable WAAS GPS's as the position source for VFR flight, which would save most of the VFR types 1/2 the cost.
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I've had both Garmin handheld and my iPad GPS put me hundreds of feet from my actual location...you just can't have that.
 
teejayevans said:
I've had both Garmin handheld and my iPad GPS put me hundreds of feet from my actual location...you just can't have that.
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Remember the primary goal of ADS-B: Allow the big airports to stack arrivals and departures closer together. Losing a few hundred feet of accuracy on VFR traffic has no impact.
 
I thought the whole idea of NextGen was to move away from radar surveillance all to together.

Anyone know what the expected accuracy is of the required TSO'd WAAS GPS source for the average GA aircraft?

John, thanks for the email to check Out performance.

It does not look like there is enough interest in doing ADSB in a sensible way. It's a good idea but poor execution can kill even the best ideas. I think I will just go any GPS source into a Mode S-ES for now to get the ground to send traffic (ala Dynon's current solution) and do like everyone else and wait till just before 2020 to use a proper GPS source. If the FAA is going to make this hard, I'll just pass on playing.
 
Today was another perfect example of how un-ready (and unreliable) ADS-B is, at least in South Texas.

We departed from KRAS (on Mustang Island, 25 miles from Corpus Christi) for Brenham (11R). For the first 10 miles, we had traffic. We even showed traffic taxiing on the ramp.

15 miles into the flight, poof! Traffic disappeared, first on the Nexus 7, then on the EFIS.

As we cruised past Victoria at 9500', it popped back for a minute or two, then was gone

As we approached Brenham ' s busy airspace, nothing. No traffic at all.

ADS-B radar remained rock solid throughout.

On the return flight, we did have some traffic around Brenham, which disappeared in a few minutes. Cruising past Victoria, it popped back on for a minute or two. Then , nothing, until we were about 15 miles from the coast, when it came back to life until we landed.

They system ain't a system...yet.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Today was another perfect example of how un-ready (and unreliable) ADS-B is, at least in South Texas.

We departed from KRAS (on Mustang Island, 25 miles from Corpus Christi) for Brenham (11R). For the first 10 miles, we had traffic. We even showed traffic taxiing on the ramp.

15 miles into the flight, poof! Traffic disappeared, first on the Nexus 7, then on the EFIS.

As we cruised past Victoria at 9500', it popped back for a minute or two, then was gone

As we approached Brenham ' s busy airspace, nothing. No traffic at all.

ADS-B radar remained rock solid throughout.

On the return flight, we did have some traffic around Brenham, which disappeared in a few minutes. Cruising past Victoria, it popped back on for a minute or two. Then , nothing, until we were about 15 miles from the coast, when it came back to life until we landed.

They system ain't a system...yet.
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The roll-out date is 5 years away. Just because it doesn't work perfectly today in your airplane in a wee little corner of Texas does not make it a big issue.
 
lolachampcar said:
.
I think I will just go any GPS source into a Mode S-ES for now to get the ground to send traffic
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Is traffic really that big of a threat? We lose dozens of aircraft a year to engine failure, many more to mistakes by pilots, and maybe a couple to midairs (some of those are formation related), so the threat of midair collision is pretty low on the risk profile.

With that in mind, I'm not spending a dime I don't have to on traffic systems. After all, even after 2020, there will still be tens of thousands of aircraft out there without ADSB-out, so it isn't like ADSB eliminates traffic conflicts from the equation.
 
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