Another ADS-B Question

Grum.Man

Grum.Man

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Grum.Man
So I understand finally most of the details about the ADS-B mandate except for one... the position source. For those of you with Garmin 430's or what not it's pretty straight forward. But what about those of us that don't and do not want to install a TSO'd gps system in our old airplanes?

For example I have a 1971 Grumman Yankee. Currently it is IFR rated and I am training to get my IR in it. Don't get me wrong, I know it's no hard IFR mount and would never consider flying it in bad weather. However it is nice to be able to break in and out of a low ceiling. I also do not want to give up the ability to cross under B airspace or land at several local airports with class D. However there is no way I am installing an 8K gps and 3k ADS-B out unit in an airplane barely worth 18k.

Are there other options for getting the position source for an ADS-B out unit? I already have a mode C transponder.
 
I think you understand the issue very well, but that that won't save you from the mandate. :(
 
I wonder if you can use the Freeflight RANGR 978 ads-B out box with a Freeflight model 1201 WAAS GPS that is approved for the 2020 mandate. I think I saw at Oshkosh that it was about 5-6K for the combo.
 
Grum.Man said:
So I understand finally most of the details about the ADS-B mandate except for one... the position source. For those of you with Garmin 430's or what not it's pretty straight forward. But what about those of us that don't and do not want to install a TSO'd gps system in our old airplanes?

For example I have a 1971 Grumman Yankee. Currently it is IFR rated and I am training to get my IR in it. Don't get me wrong, I know it's no hard IFR mount and would never consider flying it in bad weather. However it is nice to be able to break in and out of a low ceiling. I also do not want to give up the ability to cross under B airspace or land at several local airports with class D. However there is no way I am installing an 8K gps and 3k ADS-B out unit in an airplane barely worth 18k.

Are there other options for getting the position source for an ADS-B out unit? I already have a mode C transponder.
Click to expand...

Class D is not an issue as ADS-B is not required. The mandate is an airspace equipage mandate and IFR or VFR are not relevant. Class B and the associated 30 NM Mode C veil is the issue. If you only rarely fly under or in a Class B, then you can ask ATC for permission for each flight. If you need to use class B more, then you might want to consider the NavWorx box that includes a built in position source and GPS antenna. It had an Oshkosh show price just over $3000. Installation ought to be under $1000.
 
rvator51 said:
I wonder if you can use the Freeflight RANGR 978 ads-B out box with a Freeflight model 1201 WAAS GPS that is approved for the 2020 mandate. I think I saw at Oshkosh that it was about 5-6K for the combo.
Click to expand...

Someone on the AOPA Red Board did this and there's some discussion about it.
 
John Collins said:
Class D is not an issue as ADS-B is not required. The mandate is an airspace equipage mandate and IFR or VFR are not relevant. Class B and the associated 30 NM Mode C veil is the issue. If you only rarely fly under or in a Class B, then you can ask ATC for permission for each flight. If you need to use class B more, then you might want to consider the NavWorx box that includes a built in position source and GPS antenna. It had an Oshkosh show price just over $3000. Installation ought to be under $1000.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the solution I was looking for, though still pricey. The problem is I live close to CLT class B and find my self under it on about 60% of my flights! Thanks for clarifying!
 
Grum.Man said:
This is exactly the solution I was looking for, though still pricey. The problem is I live close to CLT class B and find my self under it on about 60% of my flights! Thanks for clarifying!
Click to expand...

Would you bother to upgrade if the mandate was changed to permit flight within the mode C 30 NM veil or below the shelf of a Class B if you were restricted to no higher than 2500 AGL? I would like to propose this to the FAA to amend their mandate.
 
Grum.Man said:
So I understand finally most of the details about the ADS-B mandate except for one... the position source. For those of you with Garmin 430's or what not it's pretty straight forward. But what about those of us that don't and do not want to install a TSO'd gps system in our old airplanes?

For example I have a 1971 Grumman Yankee. Currently it is IFR rated and I am training to get my IR in it. Don't get me wrong, I know it's no hard IFR mount and would never consider flying it in bad weather. However it is nice to be able to break in and out of a low ceiling. I also do not want to give up the ability to cross under B airspace or land at several local airports with class D. However there is no way I am installing an 8K gps and 3k ADS-B out unit in an airplane barely worth 18k.

Are there other options for getting the position source for an ADS-B out unit? I already have a mode C transponder.
Click to expand...

You will need a mode S transponder, a GPS/WAAS and the ADS-B unit. If you want all of it. I have heard about portable ADS-B but don't know how much of the total those have, or how they work without the mode-S transponder.
 
CTLSi said:
You will need a mode S transponder, a GPS/WAAS and the ADS-B unit. If you want all of it. I have heard about portable ADS-B but don't know how much of the total those have, or how they work without the mode-S transponder.
Click to expand...


Mode S is only required for those flying in Class A in the United States. Below FL180 he can use a UAT 970 solution.
 
John Collins said:
Would you bother to upgrade if the mandate was changed to permit flight within the mode C 30 NM veil or below the shelf of a Class B if you were restricted to no higher than 2500 AGL? I would like to propose this to the FAA to amend their mandate.
Click to expand...

No I wouldn't not in my airplane unless the installed price came down to about 2k.
 
So with the ADS600-BG, can it display GPS information to a MFD like a 430W can and be used as an approach approved GPS? It says it has Wifi so I wonder if it can be used in conjunction with an ipad and be a certified GPS?
 
Grum.Man said:
So with the ADS600-BG, can it display GPS information to a MFD like a 430W can and be used as an approach approved GPS? It says it has Wifi so I wonder if it can be used in conjunction with an ipad and be a certified GPS?
Click to expand...

If you look here some of your questions will be answered:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store/ADS_B_Transceivers/ADS600_BG.html


Realistically, it looks like a $4k solution after you add on the features (I think) you really want/need.

Not being an expert on this stuff, I do wonder:

Is there a "Box" it doesn't check? As long as I have a Mode C transponder, is this a "one box" ADSB out solution?
 
John Collins said:
Would you bother to upgrade if the mandate was changed to permit flight within the mode C 30 NM veil or below the shelf of a Class B if you were restricted to no higher than 2500 AGL? I would like to propose this to the FAA to amend their mandate.
Click to expand...
Sure. Why flush $3k or $4k down the toilet so I could fly a few hundred feet higher than what I typically do now?
 
kyleb said:
If you look here some of your questions will be answered:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store/ADS_B_Transceivers/ADS600_BG.html


Realistically, it looks like a $4k solution after you add on the features (I think) you really want/need.

Not being an expert on this stuff, I do wonder:

Is there a "Box" it doesn't check? As long as I have a Mode C transponder, is this a "one box" ADSB out solution?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link but I already looked and I still don't have my answer. I am not an avionics guru. I have never flown anything with a glass display. My experience is limited to stem gauges and KX-155's.
 
Grum.Man said:
Thanks for the link but I already looked and I still don't have my answer. I am not an avionics guru. I have never flown anything with a glass display. My experience is limited to stem gauges and KX-155's.
Click to expand...
You have to buy a WASS GPS or something with a WASS GPS built in. This one appears to have it built in and it appears that all you have to connect it to is power, your altitude encoder, and antennas. You can dig through the installation manual yourself if you want.
 
So if I get the wifi enabled option and it is giving GPS WAAS information to my Ipad, can it be used for RNAV approaches or would it have to be giving that information to a certified MFD?
 
Grum.Man said:
So if I get the wifi enabled option and it is giving GPS WAAS information to my Ipad, can it be used for RNAV approaches or would it have to be giving that information to a certified MFD?
Click to expand...


Hopefully I can explain this clearly. It is not giving GPS WAAS to the iPad or to a certified MFD. The GPS WAAS signal whether provided by a panel mounted GPS WAAS (like a Garmin 430 or 650) or by another installed box like NavWorx is used to provide accurate position information to be transmitted as the ADS-B "out". The "out" requirement is the mandate for 2020. The "in" piece is the carrot the FAA is offering us to adopt the technology (and before 2020).

What NavWorx is offering with the WiFi option is the ability to take the received ADS-B "in" signal that the NavWorx is receiving and port it wirelessly over to an iPad that is using either WingX or eKneeboard apps. You will receive FIS-B weather and FIS-B/TIS-B traffic on the iPad through the app. It will not allow you to use it for an approach. GPS approaches can only be flown with a certified GPS installed in the plane. A WAAS GPS will give you additional precision GPS approaches that you can fly (ex. LPV).

Hope this helps.
 
Instead of spending a lot to replace a nav com with a WAAS Navigator, one can just buy a UAT transmitter with its own WAAS antenna. That way you keep everything you've got in your stack, and just add one thing behind the panel, plus antenna. The WAAS GPS antenna in this case is the source and it is in this case dedicated to the UAT transmitter.

One such offering is the Garmin GDL 88. Buy it with the WAAS option and add it behind the panel to your old Mode C transponder and you will have ADS-B out with everything that will be required in 2020.

Probably there will be other similar offerings from other manufacturers, but that is the one I know of.
 
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Note that there are other solutions in work and you will likely have more options in the next couple of years. At Oshkosh I saw several vendors working on "one box" solutions for those who do not want to purchase expensive WAAS GPS + new transponder. For example, some vendors are working on new transponders that have a built-in WAAS GPS receiver
So all you would need is to replace your current transponder and install a GPS antenna. As for price I was told it would be comparable to the price of a new transponder. The point here is that I think in the next 2 to 3 years we are going to see multiple solutions to ADS-b compliance and some may be quite affordable and as simple as replacing your transponder.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Marauder said:
Hopefully I can explain this clearly. It is not giving GPS WAAS to the iPad or to a certified MFD. The GPS WAAS signal whether provided by a panel mounted GPS WAAS (like a Garmin 430 or 650) or by another installed box like NavWorx is used to provide accurate position information to be transmitted as the ADS-B "out". The "out" requirement is the mandate for 2020. The "in" piece is the carrot the FAA is offering us to adopt the technology (and before 2020).

What NavWorx is offering with the WiFi option is the ability to take the received ADS-B "in" signal that the NavWorx is receiving and port it wirelessly over to an iPad that is using either WingX or eKneeboard apps. You will receive FIS-B weather and FIS-B/TIS-B traffic on the iPad through the app. It will not allow you to use it for an approach. GPS approaches can only be flown with a certified GPS installed in the plane. A WAAS GPS will give you additional precision GPS approaches that you can fly (ex. LPV).

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thank you for clearing this up. That was kind of what I was thinking but had hoped otherwise.
 
So Michael Whitaker testifies in front of a Senate sub committee that the FAA is doing its part and that industry needs to step up and do its part to fulfill the mandate. He went on to say that the deadline will not move and then proceeded to say that there are 140,000 N registered aircraft that need equipment. This equates to 140 per day versus the 100 per month currently being done.

And the advice on this thread is to wait (good advice but hardly likely to make the mandate).
 
Grum.Man said:
So if I get the wifi enabled option and it is giving GPS WAAS information to my Ipad, can it be used for RNAV approaches or would it have to be giving that information to a certified MFD?
Click to expand...

The NavWorx ADS600-BG with the wifi option can't be used for IFR navigation, but it will output the traffic and weather data to an iPad App where it may be used to enhance situational awareness. It also supports displaying the same information on some types of MFD such as the MX20 or GMX200. It concept, it should be compatible with an Aspen, but this would have to be proven.
 
CTLSi said:
You will need a mode S transponder, a GPS/WAAS and the ADS-B unit. If you want all of it. I have heard about portable ADS-B but don't know how much of the total those have, or how they work without the mode-S transponder.
Click to expand...

This is the most misunderstood portion of the ADS-B mandate. One does not need a mode S transponder in most cases. The only time you require a mode S transponder is if you operate at or above 18,000 MSL. For the vast majority of us in the light piston GA crowd, the better choice is using UAT for ADS-B. It is cheaper and in some cases much cheaper. The three current vendors of this equipment all include an option for a built in WAAS position source. One vendor, FreeFlight, sells their solution to other manufacturers that privately label the same box (Avidyne and Aspen). Only UAT ADS-B In has the free weather, 1090ES does not. There are no stand alone ADS-B In receivers on the market today for 1090ES, so if you install a 1090ES transponder you still need to purchase a portable receiver or a separate built-in receiver. With UAT, when you squawk 1200 on your mode C transponder, you can be anonymous, that is you don't continuously broadcast your aircraft identification. This is just as things are today with your existing transponder, no one knows who you are unless you call ATC and tell them. With a mode S transponder, it always broadcasts the aircraft identifier.
 
lolachampcar said:
So Michael Whitaker testifies in front of a Senate sub committee that the FAA is doing its part and that industry needs to step up and do its part to fulfill the mandate. He went on to say that the deadline will not move and then proceeded to say that there are 140,000 N registered aircraft that need equipment. This equates to 140 per day versus the 100 per month currently being done.

And the advice on this thread is to wait (good advice but hardly likely to make the mandate).
Click to expand...

In my opinion unless you use the aircraft for business be it personal or commercial, it would be pretty dumb to upgrade now. I for one will wait till the last minute, or even after to upgrade and just avoid the places I would need it. As fast as new products are coming out, and with the new approval process on the books, prices could drop significantly.
 
I think the concern is that waiting till the last moment may have people seeing 3 to 6 month delays getting the equipment installed. This is kinda like rolling the dice.

You can get a certified ADS-B out now for about 4 AMU's. In 5 years that number may or may not drop to your 2 AMU desires but it might take 6 months to get it installed.

I am using a non TSOed ADS-B out device and the owner it working hard to get it certified. If he is successful, he will offer a kit to do so. This kit will probably run in the $500 to $750 range plus installation. This will bring my total cost to about $2000 plus install.

If it never gets certified I will use it for the in and do what ever I need to for the out. Again, I am rolling the dice but enjoying traffic and weather in the interim.

YMMV
 
It wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to wait 3-6 months to become compliant. It would just mean avoiding a few airports and taking the long way around for that time period. My airplane could never reach 18k feet so I am not concerned about that either.
 
tmyers said:
I think the concern is that waiting till the last moment may have people seeing 3 to 6 month delays getting the equipment installed. This is kinda like rolling the dice.

You can get a certified ADS-B out now for about 4 AMU's. In 5 years that number may or may not drop to your 2 AMU desires but it might take 6 months to get it installed.

I am using a non TSOed ADS-B out device and the owner it working hard to get it certified. If he is successful, he will offer a kit to do so. This kit will probably run in the $500 to $750 range plus installation. This will bring my total cost to about $2000 plus install.

If it never gets certified I will use it for the in and do what ever I need to for the out. Again, I am rolling the dice but enjoying traffic and weather in the interim.

YMMV
Click to expand...

If you are using a portable device, IMHO it will never get certified. It would require that 91.225 and 91.227 be changed. There is a portable ADS-B Out device that is in the marketplace that is fairly inexpensive, but I saw a compliance report run on the device and it has many issues. I would not be surprised if the FAA has contacted the manufacturer and may demand some changes. For example, it specifies the SIL and SDA parameters that claim the device is certified, which it is not. If these values are set to zero as they are required to be, then this device becomes invisible to certified equipment.
 
One of the reasons many of us are sitting on the sidelines is the fact that the manufacturers are not playing nice in the sandbox. If the GDL-88 communicated with my Aspens and would put ADS-B "in" on my displays, I would have installed it already. I don't want a GDL-88 input only to be seen on my GTN650.

Everyone is vying for a piece of the pie and only a few are trying to work across different avionics platforms to integrate everything. I want everything to work together!
 
I know that in discussions with the owner he is in the second round of the process with the FAA after making some required changes. If, and I know this is a big IF, he gets certification, it will no longer be a portable unit, but will be permanently powered and mounted with permanent antennas. This would be the additional kit I referred to.
 
Marauder said:
One of the reasons many of us are sitting on the sidelines is the fact that the manufacturers are not playing nice in the sandbox. If the GDL-88 communicated with my Aspens and would put ADS-B "in" on my displays, I would have installed it already. I don't want a GDL-88 input only to be seen on my GTN650.

Everyone is vying for a piece of the pie and only a few are trying to work across different avionics platforms to integrate everything. I want everything to work together!
Click to expand...

And lets hope this in the number of people trying to get a piece of that pie drives the cost down.

In order to make it more affordable seems the FAA needs to improve their response times to the companies working on certification.
 
John Collins said:
This is the most misunderstood portion of the ADS-B mandate. One does not need a mode S transponder in most cases. The only time you require a mode S transponder is if you operate at or above 18,000 MSL. For the vast majority of us in the light piston GA crowd, the better choice is using UAT for ADS-B. It is cheaper and in some cases much cheaper. The three current vendors of this equipment all include an option for a built in WAAS position source. One vendor, FreeFlight, sells their solution to other manufacturers that privately label the same box (Avidyne and Aspen). Only UAT ADS-B In has the free weather, 1090ES does not. There are no stand alone ADS-B In receivers on the market today for 1090ES, so if you install a 1090ES transponder you still need to purchase a portable receiver or a separate built-in receiver. With UAT, when you squawk 1200 on your mode C transponder, you can be anonymous, that is you don't continuously broadcast your aircraft identification. This is just as things are today with your existing transponder, no one knows who you are unless you call ATC and tell them. With a mode S transponder, it always broadcasts the aircraft identifier.
Click to expand...


I don't think a lot of people understand the significance of a mode S output. They look at it as a cheaper way to comply with the mandate. But as you point out, you lose your ability to be in the system anonymously. Just opens the door for user fees...
 
Marauder said:
One of the reasons many of us are sitting on the sidelines is the fact that the manufacturers are not playing nice in the sandbox. If the GDL-88 communicated with my Aspens and would put ADS-B "in" on my displays, I would have installed it already. I don't want a GDL-88 input only to be seen on my GTN650.

Everyone is vying for a piece of the pie and only a few are trying to work across different avionics platforms to integrate everything. I want everything to work together!
Click to expand...

The market is being divided into Garmin and everyone else. Garmin unfortunately chose to use proprietary interfaces both for its position source and FISB/Traffic display. Everyone else has adopted the Capstone Interfaces which are public and that the original Garmin GDL90/MX20/GMX20 support. I agree this is unfortunate. I think Garmin has good enough products that can compete without being proprietary.
 
I've used Garmin equipment as far back as the late 90s and there is absolutely nothing new about Garmin competing on everything but capability. They are not interested in a level playing field and I do not believe they should have a seat at the table when discussing what is in the public's best interest.

There is absolutely no reason we could not have a $200 TSO'd WAAS GPS puck if the FAA decided it was in the public's best interest that we have one. Procure a TSO'd firmware base and mask onto the die as is currently done for so many other GPS engines. Do you think Garmin is going to let that happen?

Back to the main point, there is no reason this mandate needs to cost as much as it does and offer the GA owner as little as it does. We can go back and forth all day long about UAT versus S-ES and the like but that accepts the way the concept is currently being implemented. I suggest we do not accept the current approach and move to bring more value to all of us that have to install this equipment.

Perhaps I should have posted the following in this section-
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74002
 
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ADS-B is a very tangled web.

I sprang for In/Out last February. These are my observations:

1. Radar is pretty good. Not as good or reliable as XM, which I flew with for nine years -- but pretty good.

2. Traffic is up/down/up/down all the time. You will have multiple targets, then no targets.

3. There is no way to know if this is a system failure, an individual transmitter failure, or a problem with your individual installation.

4. We run two independent, parallel systems because of this. (GRT Horizon HXr/SkyRadar/Trig TT-22 and a Nexus 7 tablet/GDL-39). Thanks to this redundancy, I can confidently state that the ADS-B system routinely fails, showing no traffic at all. Radar, as stated, usually works.

5. Traffic is slowly improving. Sometimes it's awesome, for days on end. Sometimes it's nonexistent, for days on end.

6. No one at ATC knows or cares about the status of ADS-B at any given moment.

7. Flight Service (remember them?) has been given reporting responsibility for ADS-B. Despite this, I have yet to talk to anyone at LockMart who knows anything about it. In the end, no one in the FAA knows or cares about the ADS-B system as it relates to day to day flying.

8. Until we are given the ability to submit PIREPs on outages, the system will be flawed.

9. Until we are given the information about outages (via NOTAMs), the system will remain flawed.

Right now, ADS-B isn't worth a bucket of warm snot for traffic, at least in South Texas. We have seen some incremental improvement along the coast, and I've been told it's pretty solid in the Dallas area -- but in the end I wish I had saved my money.

The best I can say is this: The FAA has six years to get their act together. Let's hope it all falls into place.
 
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tmyers said:
I think the concern is that waiting till the last moment may have people seeing 3 to 6 month delays getting the equipment installed. This is kinda like rolling the dice.

You can get a certified ADS-B out now for about 4 AMU's. In 5 years that number may or may not drop to your 2 AMU desires but it might take 6 months to get it installed.

I am using a non TSOed ADS-B out device and the owner it working hard to get it certified. If he is successful, he will offer a kit to do so. This kit will probably run in the $500 to $750 range plus installation. This will bring my total cost to about $2000 plus install.

If it never gets certified I will use it for the in and do what ever I need to for the out. Again, I am rolling the dice but enjoying traffic and weather in the interim.

YMMV
Click to expand...

There is an estimated 5 years of backup to get the gear installed given the number of planes that need it, and the number of places that can do the work.

So, if you don't have the gear installed now, you are already behind schedule.
 
I fly daily in S. Florida and traffic is always up. I see what Palm Beach sees as well as Center.

I can understand if the system is not fully functional everywhere as the mandate is still five years away.

And yes, judging by the FAA's latest Senate testimony, there is no way to get all aircraft done by 2020.
 
John Collins said:
What ADS-B Out equipment did you select and is it certified with a compliant position source? What are you using for ADS-B In?
Click to expand...
That info is in my post, above.

The GRT GPS I'm using for position reporting is not certified at this time, but may be by 2020. If not, I will buy one that is.
 
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