Android AWOL from OSH

[Jay Honeck]

Amazingly, there is almost no Android presence at OSH again this year. With Android tablet sales skyrocketing, I really thought this was the year for this platform to explode -- but the marketers all seem to have missed the boat.

Thank goodness for Garmin, or we would have nothing regarding Android at OSH. Man, what a missed opportunity for Naviator, etc.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

 

[John221us]

Amazingly, there is almost no Android presence at OSH again this year. With Android tablet sales skyrocketing, I really thought this was the year for this platform to explode -- but the marketers all seem to have missed the boat.

Thank goodness for Garmin, or we would have nothing regarding Android at OSH. Man, what a missed opportunity for Naviator, etc.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

Apple still has 3X the install base and I bet that is even greater amongst pilots. These are small dev shops (Garmin being a noted exception) and don't have the budget or resources to develop for and support multiple platforms. As a small business owner yourself, I am sure you can see the logic of targeting limited resources at the largest market group.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[CJones]

I wonder what a booth costs at OSH?

If you think about it, I bet most of the Android stuff out there started out as a guy/gal that does development work for their 'real' job getting an itch to develop something for his aviation disea... err. passion. Next thing you know, they have a quality product, but not a lot of resources around its marketing/business management/etc. So they are 'stuck' trying to support a low-capital business.

Edit: Looks like ~$2500 for an indoor booth - roughly 70 annual Naviator subscriptions to break even on the booth rental itself.
http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/HangarABCD.pdf

 

[Shepherd]

sigh.....
Now we have to listen to another years worth of iPodian superiority gibberish.
sigh......

 

[AdamZ]

I wonder what a booth costs at OSH?

If you think about it, I bet most of the Android stuff out there started out as a guy/gal that does development work for their 'real' job getting an itch to develop something for his aviation disea... err. passion. Next thing you know, they have a quality product, but not a lot of resources around its marketing/business management/etc. So they are 'stuck' trying to support a low-capital business.

Edit: Looks like ~$2500 for an indoor booth - roughly 70 annual Naviator subscriptions to break even on the booth rental itself.
http://www.airventure.org/exhibitors/HangarABCD.pdf

Exactly! What I was going to say. A lot of Android stuff is more open source by someone with a very limited budget.

 

[jesse]

How many pilots do you see walking around with android tablets here? I've seen zero. If you were a developer walking around Airventure would you target the platform with no visible users or the one that you see in everyone's hand?

 

[rich0]

Exactly! What I was going to say. A lot of Android stuff is more open source by someone with a very limited budget.

Even those with budgets tend to be slow to catch up. For years people were still focusing on iPhone apps over Android and that has really only changed very recently, despite Android passing iPhone in market share years ago. Tablets are just looking like a repeat.

I think that there are some unique factors that should drive faster Android movement in aviation on the tablet market, but whether it will is to be seen.

1. In the small tablet market, Android is far superior. On the one side you have large phones, and on the other you have things like the Nexus 7. For cramped cockpits these are very attractive form factors, and the iPad mini is really a weak competitor here with its low resolution and high price.
2. The iOS market has a lot of competition now, and the Android market only has Pilot which isn't really that mature yet. If somebody came in with a strong product they could seize a large market share and if they properly supported their product they could keep that market share for a long time.
3. One of the biggest complaints about Android in general is that Android owners tend not to buy apps. I don't really see that really applying to aviation - compared to the alternatives and general costs of flying nobody is going to balk over a ~$100/yr subscription. What's the alternative - something certified at $2000/yr for updates?

I'd really like to see more open-source software though. On Android I think Avare is turning into a really nice app (not really competitive with Pilot, but come on, it is free). I think a limit is going to the be databases - the chart images can be obtained freely online, but the data used to make them isn't published. That means no vector maps or synthetic vision (though you could still display an artificial horizon with tapes/compass/etc, and maybe terrain data can be obtained freely somewhere even if not intended for aviation). Creating databases is laborious, and obviously they're important for safety.

 

[ebetancourt]

Just out of curiosity, how would you see a small company competing in a very small market, making rent money from open source products?

 

[kyleb]

How many pilots do you see walking around with android tablets here? I've seen zero. If you were a developer walking around Airventure would you target the platform with no visible users or the one that you see in everyone's hand?

The overall tablet market is huge. If Android devices get 25% market share, that's still a huge business opportunity.

The aviation tablet market is small. Unless you're building applications for the lead dog (Apple), the market may be too small to bother with...

 

[John221us]

Androids are much harder to develop on, due to a lack of standardization on the hardware/platform side (you have to do QA for many more devices and allow for a much wider range of screen resolutions). When you couple that with the much, much larger install base for Apple (as Jesse pointed out) it doesn't make business sense to invest in Android development. There are a lot of people buying Android devices for economical reasons, but this is yet another strike against the platform. These same people are looking for free or inexpensive applications, yet the cost of providing a reliable and fully tested application is much higher.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[masloki]

I have to second the development costs for android. Between each vendor having their skin with the ensuing goofiness (I am looking at you HTC) and their inability to get everything to a stable OS version, development costs about 50% more for the same results on iOS. Once Google fixes that, then you will see better selection and quality of apps. It has gotten better but they still have a ways to go.

 

[Challenged]

"Android overtakes iOS with 53% market share in tablets"

http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/small-tablets-drive-big-share-gains-android

 

[jesse]

Big difference between overall android marketshare versus marketshare of pilots that are willing to spend money on quality aviation applications. Just because Android tablet can be bought for about the price of a pack of cigarettes does not mean those buying it will pay a hundred dollars for software.

 

[rich0]

Big difference between overall android marketshare versus marketshare of pilots that are willing to spend money on quality aviation applications. Just because Android tablet can be bought for about the price of a pack of cigarettes does not mean those buying it will pay a hundred dollars for software.

That seems like arguing that iPad owners are cheapskates unwilling to fork out a measly $2500/yr for some database updates and who expect their EFB to cost as much as a handheld radio and not the $10k it takes to put together a reasonable touchscreen GPS system.

If you're starting with pilots as your target audience I think you've already excluded just about anybody who isn't willing to spend money. I don't run Android because it is cheaper - I run it because it is better. The fact that it is also cheaper just makes it better still.

 

[rich0]

Just out of curiosity, how would you see a small company competing in a very small market, making rent money from open source products?

Sounds like a recipe for failure. Most open source projects do not have a goal of making money. They often recoup donations, but rarely in proportion to their expenses. I was on the board of a foundation for a fairly successful open source project, and we couldn't have paid a single salary at a competitive level - most of the donations were for services like hosting (the retail value of all the servers it had access to was quite significant). If anything we avoided compensating anybody for their time/effort since we had a huge pool of volunteers (many projects have had huge problems when they start paying people as it creates a class system of sorts).

There are certainly companies that make open source part of their business model. I don't really see how it would work with aviation unless maybe you made the software open source and sold database updates, and the updates could be almost entirely automated so that you didn't need staff to prepare them. I think the database is probably the biggest ongoing expense, so that probably wouldn't work.

For the most part open source tends to be about people scratching an itch, and are volunteer driven. It tends to be much more common on Android than iOS mainly because Android itself is open source, and if you're interested in writing open source software chances are you're going to use an OS whose source you can modify. Open source projects tend to not be concerned with market share/etc, just as most members of this forum would be concerned with a survey of the non-pilot public about who makes the best general aviation aircraft except for amusement value.

 

[Shepherd]

How many pilots do you see walking around with android tablets here? I've seen zero. If you were a developer walking around Airventure would you target the platform with no visible users or the one that you see in everyone's hand?

Because the Nexus 7 is small enough to fit in a shirt pocket, so you don't have to "carry" it.

iPad is losing market share at a rapid rate. At the FBO where I fly at least half the guys have purchased the Nexus 7 and are willing to swap some functionality for cost for the time being. I can get 2 Nexus and double the subscriptions for less than the price of a single iPad.
Part of the lag in Android support is being driven by some aviation vendors who have VERY large investments in iPod and associated technology and are trying to force that revenue stream to continue.

 

[westslopeco]

So adding this in just as a data point.

I am one of the elusive pilots using an Android tablet in the airplane. I have a Asus Transformer and have been using it for a couple of years now. I run Avilution Aviation Maps app. It does everything that I want, georefed FAA charts with postion indicated, smooth scrolling, smooth zoom, touch airports for quick info or touch again to get the full AFD entry, downloadable WX and TFRs, easy flight plan building, etc, etc. (Note that I am a VFR pilot so I don't use the considerable IFR functionality built into the app.) I also have a copy running on my Android phone as a backup, and a third copy running on my SO's phone as a third backup. I haven't bought a chart in a few years. I get all of this for $4.99/mth which includes product updates and all chart/AFD data. Is it the best out there? I don't know, but I do know that it works very well for me.

 

[jesse]

I could give a crap less who makes the hardware. I want the best aviation applications available period when I'm flying and right now it's quite clear that's on the iPad. Since I do not use tablets for anything but flying I'm going to run an iPad until there is better software on something else. I don't see there being better experiences in the cockpit outside of the iPad anytime within the next few years.

 

[X3 Skier]

I could give a crap less who makes the hardware. I want the best aviation applications available period when I'm flying and right now it's quite clear that's on the iPad. Since I do not use tablets for anything but flying I'm going to run an iPad until there is better software on something else. I don't see there being better experiences in the cockpit outside of the iPad anytime within the next few years.

+1.

Have had both Android and iOS devices. Prefer FF so I use iOS for flying.

So far the difference in price between Android device and my iOS device has been amortized at about $1 a week and going down.

Cheers

 

[John221us]

There is a difference between current market share and install base (Apple's install base is 3x the entire Android install base for tablets).
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjo...hare-but-still-dominates-north-america-usage/
While a few people might buy Android because they don't like Apple or Apple's marketing strategy, most do so based on price and yes, these same people are much less likely to spend money on an app. Personally, price wasn't a factor at all in my decision to buy an iPad. Also, I expect to have to replace that device every two years, not because it breaks, but because I want to stay current. When it comes to spending $80 or a $150 a year on ForeFlight, quite frankly, that is one of my least costly aviation expenses and I don't even blink. I would buy an Android if I thought it would best serve my needs, but as even the Android loyalists on this board point out, the aviation app base isn't there yet. That being the case, if cost wasn't a factor, why did you choose Android? It isn't the aviation app base. Some have said it is a better OS, but an OS provides little value without apps. Some have indicated the form factor of the Galaxy 7, but the iPad mini really isn't much bigger and for moving map in the cockpit, it really seems like an ideal size to me.

For me, every couple of years I get to look at it and decide which platform will best fit my needs (and I am not adverse to change). So far, Android hasn't made sense. I want a solid reliable EFB and flight planning app on a reliable platform.

 

[jnmeade]

Everyone has their own needs in mind and as most of the functionality I want is in the panel, about all I use an EFB for is charts, and really only big picture stuff on charts. I have FF on an iPad1 and am looking to get a newer tablet with minimalist aviation software so android is certainly something I'm considering. I use the tablet for document storage and other. If there was a good Windows based aviation app that had adequate charts, I'd use that. Is there any?

 

[Bill Watson]

I could give a crap less who makes the hardware. I want the best aviation applications available period when I'm flying and right now it's quite clear that's on the iPad. Since I do not use tablets for anything but flying I'm going to run an iPad until there is better software on something else. I don't see there being better experiences in the cockpit outside of the iPad anytime within the next few years.

That about sums up where I'm at and where I'm going.

Before I started with FF, I was purely a Windows/Android person and intended to stay there. Then I picked up a couple of iPads because they were hot, my wife is a iOS kind of person and there was FF.

FF became my chief planner, chart file and flight tracker. I had an aviation suite on my Android phone but it became apparent that an iPhone for backup would be better. I encouraged my wife to go to iPhone from her Deadberry.

Now I try to avoid even touching my Win station for anything to do with flight planning though I can't give up ADDS weather.

One killer app can do it. And by 'doing it' I mean that I no longer look forward to an Android anything at this point. A 'Google phone' perhaps but OS or platform preference is becoming nonsense. I even got a Mac Air to carry around but I'll never be a Mac person while waiting for the the Windows legacy to fade away.

Bill "whose only marketed app was written in S/370 assembler" Watson

 

[EdFred]

I could give a crap less who makes the hardware. I want the best aviation applications available period when I'm flying and right now it's quite clear that's on the iPad. Since I do not use tablets for anything but flying I'm going to run an iPad until there is better software on something else. I don't see there being better experiences in the cockpit outside of the iPad anytime within the next few years.

Yeah, but this is coming from someone who refuses to do any Android development.

 

[EdFred]

If there was a good Windows based aviation app that had adequate charts, I'd use that. Is there any?

www.aviationsafety.com

Been running it for almost 4 years.

 

[acluffpoa]

Androids are much harder to develop on, due to a lack of standardization on the hardware/platform side (you have to do QA for many more devices and allow for a much wider range of screen resolutions).

THIS is a big deal folks. Standardization = stability and supportability.

I want a platform that will cause my application to be unstable... said no developer EVER!

 

[jesse]

Yeah, but this is coming from someone who refuses to do any Android development.

I don't refuse to - I simply don't think the cost/benefit is worth my time. Why mess with a good thing?

 

[EdFred]

I don't refuse to - I simply don't think the cost/benefit is worth my time. Why mess with a good thing?

And when everyone else does the same thing, nothing ever gets developed.

 

[jesse]

And when everyone else does the same thing, nothing ever gets developed.

I'm not going to volunteer my time to make the Android platform successful when I can commit that time towards already existing platforms with a strong userbase where I make more money.

I could careless about the long term success of Android. The day I can make more money for a given hour of my time on Android will be the day I develop for it.

 

[jjflys]

Face it- Android screams "I'm too cheap/don't want to pay for an iDevice" for many. I would bet this perception is even higher in the aviation community where some buy $1000 headsets and used to buy $2500 portable GPS units. The Android user base in aviation is simply too small and won't be growing significantly any time soon. Add to that the relative simplicity of developing for a couple of hardware/screen size combinations vs. dozens.

Some personal experience outside of aviation:

# of friends/co-workers with android devices 2 years ago: 4

Those same people now- 100% on iPhone

 

[X3 Skier]

And when everyone else does the same thing, nothing ever gets developed.

If there is a market, things get developed. If not, they don't.

If somebody wants to create a market, go for it. So far, they haven't. Who cares? What already exists seems to fill whatever need exists.

Cheers

 

[Jay Honeck]

Because the Nexus 7 is small enough to fit in a shirt pocket, so you don't have to "carry" it.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We've got a winnah!

I have carried my N7 everywhere here in OSH. You would never know it.

Meanwhile, I see all these guys trying to get ice cream with their enormous iThings awkwardly falling out from under tucked arms, and chuckle smugly...





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Face it- Android screams "I'm too cheap/don't want to pay for an iDevice" for many. I would bet this perception is even higher in the aviation community where some buy $1000 headsets and used to buy $2500 portable GPS units. The Android user base in aviation is simply too small and won't be growing significantly any time soon. Add to that the relative simplicity of developing for a couple of hardware/screen size combinations vs. dozens.

Some personal experience outside of aviation:

# of friends/co-workers with android devices 2 years ago: 4

Those same people now- 100% on iPhone

As with seemingly everything else, pilots are stubborn when it comes to change. I know pilots who refuse to admit that glass panels are wonderful, and still fly from VOR to VOR. Android appears to be the long term market winner. Developers who ignore it do so at their peril.

I didn't switch to the Nexus 7 because it was cheap. I switched because it was flat-out better than my iPad. The fact that it cost 1/3rd the price merely cemented the deal.

 

[rich0]

That being the case, if cost wasn't a factor, why did you choose Android?

For the same reason I chose it when I bought the original G1 - it is the most practical open-source mobile OS out there. When it doesn't behave in the way I want to I can change that, and I benefit from the improvements others make as well. I also don't appreciate the walled-garden mentality you find on iOS. With Android I feel like the device actually belongs to me.

If I looked at it the same way I might look at buying a handheld GPS, where I had no expectation of ever running more than a few apps on it, then conceivably I could see buying an iPad (though frankly it would be a trade-off in the mini form-factor unless Apple improves their offering substantially).

For me aviation is just one more thing I do on my tablet. I spend far more time contributing to open source software than I do flying.

I'm hardly a typical potential customer though, and I wouldn't expect somebody in it for money to target their efforts at me. That doesn't really bother me - been dealing with that issue since well before even the iPhone was first sold.

I think what is more likely to drive a typical customer to Android is the fact that they're already using it for everything else. If you want to check your email while you're in the FBO it is a lot more convenient if your tablet is synced to all your other devices. That is much more painful to accomplish if you're running a mix of iOS and Android.

 

[wabower]

Not a winner at all, just somebody drawing bulls-eyes around the bullet holes. You obviously weren't watching closely enough to see the many thousands of iPhones tucked away in pockets.

On the return trip we had a 796 on the pilot's yoke, a 696 on a suction cup mount on the copilot's yoke and three ipads running off the stratus. The Garmins beat the tablets hands down on all counts.

After comparing the Stratus ADS-B weather on the tablets with the XM weather on the Garmin hand-helds, it's also clear that ADS-B has some catching up to do in order to compete with the XM package.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We've got a winnah!

I have carried my N7 everywhere here in OSH. You would never know it.

Meanwhile, I see all these guys trying to get ice cream with their enormous iThings awkwardly falling out from under tucked arms, and chuckle smugly...





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...

 

[jesse]

As with seemingly everything else, pilots are stubborn when it comes to change. I know pilots who refuse to admit that glass panels are wonderful, and still fly from VOR to VOR. Android appears to be the long term market winner. Developers who ignore it do so at their peril.

I didn't switch to the Nexus 7 because it was cheap. I switched because it was flat-out better than my iPad. The fact that it cost 1/3rd the price merely cemented the deal.

All a matter of preference Jay - I made a few flights using a Nexus 7 and whatever the then best aviation software was and I was horribly disappointed. The software was just nowhere close to what Foreflight is.

 

[rich0]

THIS is a big deal folks. Standardization = stability and supportability.

I want a platform that will cause my application to be unstable... said no developer EVER!

Well, except for the bazillion devs who have been building applications for Windows since the dawn of time. Tell me what the standard screen resolution/size and video hardware is for a PC? And the devs who focused on the 95-based OSes over the NT-based OSes in the pre-XP days certainly didn't do so due to its stability.

Granted, I can see issues if you're making an app that is going to be primarily tablet-based but you want it to work on phones as well, as 1/3rd of Android devices currently run GB, which is basically pre-tablet. However, those are fairly old phones now. I'd probably just target ICS+ and just about any API you're likely to need will be there.

The idea that you can optimize an application for such a rigidly-controlled set of conditions really is unique to iOS, video game consoles, and the mindset of people who write IE6-only web apps. I guess it is more convenient for the developer, but it is far less convenient for everybody else as the size of your phone is dictated by what the CEO of Apple thinks is best for you.

The diversity of Android is really its strength.

But, arguing about this stuff really won't change anything anytime soon. The market forces around Android/iOS aren't going to be driven by aviation. I suspect that the position of iOS on tablets/phones will be like the position of OSX on PCs - an alternative that a sizeable minority of people choose to use. On phones they're well on their way there already, and on tablets they've really just gotten started. When you have a dozen big vendors making hardware and one OS that will only ever work on one of them and another that will work on any who want to use it, the latter is going to tend to dominate long-term.

 

[wabower]

But history also proves that niche markets (such as education and publishing that have long been Apple stalwarts) will continue to use the products that best serve their needs, as well as the number of law firms that still use Word Perfect for documents.

The complaints about iPads in cockpits have never been about screen size, they have been about finding the best place to mount them and the hardware to do it. Based on the number of cockpits I observed at OSH with such hardware installed and the number of vendors hawking various mounts, I've concluded that pilots have found something that works and will choose the software from one or several providers that compete in that market.

Well, except for the bazillion devs who have been building applications for Windows since the dawn of time. Tell me what the standard screen resolution/size and video hardware is for a PC? And the devs who focused on the 95-based OSes over the NT-based OSes in the pre-XP days certainly didn't do so due to its stability.

Granted, I can see issues if you're making an app that is going to be primarily tablet-based but you want it to work on phones as well, as 1/3rd of Android devices currently run GB, which is basically pre-tablet. However, those are fairly old phones now. I'd probably just target ICS+ and just about any API you're likely to need will be there.

The idea that you can optimize an application for such a rigidly-controlled set of conditions really is unique to iOS, video game consoles, and the mindset of people who write IE6-only web apps. I guess it is more convenient for the developer, but it is far less convenient for everybody else as the size of your phone is dictated by what the CEO of Apple thinks is best for you.

The diversity of Android is really its strength.

But, arguing about this stuff really won't change anything anytime soon. The market forces around Android/iOS aren't going to be driven by aviation. I suspect that the position of iOS on tablets/phones will be like the position of OSX on PCs - an alternative that a sizeable minority of people choose to use. On phones they're well on their way there already, and on tablets they've really just gotten started. When you have a dozen big vendors making hardware and one OS that will only ever work on one of them and another that will work on any who want to use it, the latter is going to tend to dominate long-term.

 

[jnmeade]

It's like the old Indian said, what you see depends on where you stand. Everyone is on transmit and no one is on receive.

 

[DaleB]

The complaints about iPads in cockpits have never been about screen size, they have been about finding the best place to mount them and the hardware to do it. Based on the number of cockpits I observed at OSH with such hardware installed and the number of vendors hawking various mounts, I've concluded that pilots have found something that works and will choose the software from one or several providers that compete in that market.

I think the real strength of the iPad/iPod product line is the standardized hardware. Sure, that standard may change from time to time, but because there is such a large number of them out there we see a lot of aftermarket gear for them. The Android devices span a hundred different hardware configurations, no two alike. No standard types or locations for connectors and no standard form factor means no standard mounts or accessories. If I'm a manufacturer and I want to make a mobile mount, docking station or whatever, it matters not if Android devices outnumber Apple products 5 to 1. I don't want to make a hundred different products and sell a couple thousand of each, I want to make 1 or 2 or 3 products and sell tens or hundreds of thousands. So - I can find all kinds of "stuff" for an iPad, and virtually nothing for most Android based tablets.

I've thought about getting a tablet to use while flying. Two things have convinced me not to do so. Well, three, really. I'm not a big Apple fan; I don't like their philosophy and I don't like the idea that I've got to pretty much adopt an Apple-centric lifestyle to use their hardware. It's not just the iPad, it's iTunes and iGottaBuyWhat? Then there's the fact that their hardware prices are bordering on insane.

Android... meh. App support is sucky at best and moving very slowly. As much as I would love to see Android succeed and flourish, until the hardware manufacturers get together and standardize something -- anything -- I can see it struggling for a long time to come. The one Android tablet I came very close to buying used a proprietary 30-pin connector. No USB, HDMI, nothing -- if you want to plug something in, buy an adapter cable. What? When did Apple get into the Android tablet market? No sale. And Google isn't helping anything either; I'm getting really tired of their snooping.

So for now, I'll fly with just the steam gauges in the club planes, the panel mounted 396 or 430W, and a sectional and AFD. When I get to the point of building the panel in my RV it's all glass. I'll be able to do my flight planning on a PC and upload it to the EFIS in the plane, or just do it on-screen in the cockpit. Just one of the many tings I love about he E/AB world... for a paltry few grand I don't have to go out and spend hundreds on a tablet.

 

[Jay Honeck]

All a matter of preference Jay - I made a few flights using a Nexus 7 and whatever the then best aviation software was and I was horribly disappointed. The software was just nowhere close to what Foreflight is.

WRT aviation, in 2012 I would have agreed that ForeFlight on the iPad was a clear winner. Now, not so much. Garmin Pilot with the GDL-39 providing traffic and weather on the Anroid-powered Nexus 7 rocks.

When I said the Nexus 7 was superior to the iPad, I was referring to the other 97% of the time I'm using a tablet.