An Awkward Situation....Opinions Wanted!

[Richard]

Well it just seems as if your story says don't judge a book by its cover but in the same breath you say make sure I, as a "book", should be sure to have an attractive cover..?
I always try to remain presentable and respectful. I haven't run into anyone before this that's judged me for my looks. Just as I'm respectful of others they are of me, and we wind up having a great conversation about flying. Which is the end goal isn't it?

Good point. Well, I guess at this point we fall back on the golden rule.

You may very well enjoy a measure of success towards your goal. However, there are things which better the odds of achieving that goal. Don't be in a hurry. (That last may not be good advice, depending on who you talk to.)

 

[Horus927]

Yeah well I sure hope the ear closes all the way up. If not then I guess I'll have wasted a ton of money. Or not..

I thought about throwing a pic in the mix. Might clear things up a bit. Then again I'm not sure i want to throw myself in the hot seat any more than i am!

 

[wabower]

Again, I don't think anyone here is beating up on you, and if you're a good pilot I hope you end up with a good gig. I would only suggest that perhaps you should rethink your strategy about maintaining your current appearance until some future date at which something might happen and then you'll change. Since you're already looking for ways to fit in, why not look the part now?

Again guys.. I'm not going to try to show up to a pilot job interview with a weird appearance!
Long before I get a commercial job I'll have been a CFI for a while, another job which I'll have to clean up for. I'm going to want to make new prospective pilots as comfortable as possible and feeling safe. I know that.

 

[ronnieh]

Like I said not beating up on you. You seem to have the correct attitude. You don't have to like the rules (some do) but you better be able to fake liking them. It is such a small club. People like my boss that will drop $2 M on a plane and another $150 K each year to feed it have certain expectations. My boss is very reasonable and very easy to fly for. In fact the whole family is very laid back and easy to please. For that kind of money they get to make the rules. It is a very money oriented club for the owners. The pilots are just hired help. BTW, you will never know it all but, you do need to keep trying to learn it all. Best of luck!!

 

[Horus927]

Oh I'm pounding through the training. And I'm anticipating the big clean up when the time comes for a CFI job. So's a lot of the guys at school. The owner and a couple other guys were saying something about wondering if there's an actual face under all this beard lol

 

[Richard]

Yeah well I sure hope the ear closes all the way up. If not then I guess I'll have wasted a ton of money. Or not..

I thought about throwing a pic in the mix. Might clear things up a bit. Then again I'm not sure i want to throw myself in the hot seat any more than i am!

You wasted money. That's a given.

I was about to ask for pics. Trust me, you're not in the hot seat. A pic sure would clear it up. (as long as it's not a blurry cell)

 

[Henning]

Well it just seems as if your story says don't judge a book by its cover but in the same breath you say make sure I, as a "book", should be sure to have an attractive cover..?
I always try to remain presentable and respectful. I haven't run into anyone before this that's judged me for my looks. Just as I'm respectful of others they are of me, and we wind up having a great conversation about flying. Which is the end goal isn't it?

Yes, correct. The reason is because you can adjust your thoughts but you cannot adjust others, therefore if you want to succeed in someone else's operation, you have to be desirable to them. If that is not desirable to you, then don't go there. Go where they want you regardless how you look, and there are options available.

The airlines aren't that hot of a career anymore anyway. As for Pt 91 jet flying, you never know. Some old hippie from Silicon Valley may take a liking to you.

It's better to be who you are and find where you fit in than being who you aren't and trying to fit a spot.

 

[Richard]

Like I said not beating up on you. You seem to have the correct attitude. You don't have to like the rules (some do) but you better be able to fake liking them. It is such a small club. People like my boss that will drop $2 M on a plane and another $150 K each year to feed it have certain expectations. My boss is very reasonable and very easy to fly for. In fact the whole family is very laid back and easy to please. For that kind of money they get to make the rules. It is a very money oriented club for the owners. The pilots are just hired help. BTW, you will never know it all but, you do need to keep trying to learn it all. Best of luck!!

Most people can see through fakery. How much that affects one's employment I can no say. Well, except to say one would not rise much above suspicion. (Faking in one avenue insinuates faking in another avenue, ie, bending the rules.)

 

[RyanShort1]

Generally speaking, one does need to make the good first impression, and for good or bad, that includes your appearance. I find that always wearing button up shirts, slacks, and nice shoes goes a long way towards folks seeing "professional CFI..." no matter how often my clients (who are almost universally far wealthier than I) show up in shorts and a ratty shirt. You have to hold yourself to the higher standard if you are the one trying to "get" the job. As a CFI I am essentially being interviewed by my prospective customer, and the same goes for you even if you are "just" volunteering.

Ryan

 

[Richard]

It's better to be who you are and find where you fit in than being who you aren't and trying to fit a spot.

Truf.

 

[Henning]

Again guys.. I'm not going to try to show up to a pilot job interview with a weird appearance!
Long before I get a commercial job I'll have been a CFI for a while, another job which I'll have to clean up for. I'm going to want to make new prospective pilots as comfortable as possible and feeling safe. I know that.

Really? What are you going to do about your ears?

 

[Horus927]

Thanks Ronnie.

I'm not waiting for some future job opportunity to clean up. Just not concerned with it while I'm still training. When i get to CFI training I probably will.

I've always had problems with fitting in and highly disagree with in-crowd mentality. That breeds discrimination. Not cool. I can't think of it like that.
I'm trying to get myself to like the idea rather than seeing it as something i have to make myself do..

 

[Horus927]

You wasted money. That's a given.

Can I get some clarification on this one?

 

[Horus927]

It's better to be who you are and find where you fit in than being who you aren't and trying to fit a spot.

I agree but there doesn't seem to be room for that in the pilots world. Unless I land that dream job flying Van Halen around as mentioned earlier lol

 

[RyanShort1]

Thanks Ronnie.

I'm not waiting for some future job opportunity to clean up. Just not concerned with it while I'm still training. When i get to CFI training I probably will.

I've always had problems with fitting in and highly disagree with in-crowd mentality. That breeds discrimination. Not cool. I can't think of it like that.
I'm trying to get myself to like the idea rather than seeing it as something i have to make myself do..

Honestly, that's a bit tired. Just about everyone associates with some crowd. You may like one crowd better than the other, but you're still in one. You may like the Harley-Davidson "rebel" crowd better, or the surfer-dude crowd, but it's still a crowd - associated with certain things. Same goes for the tattoos. Same goes for piercings. Same goes for the druggies in my neighborhood.

For me, God didn't make me with any piercings, or tattoos, and I never felt the need to get them. I'm not sure how that makes me part of a particular crowd, except maybe the crowd that didn't want to conform to something "different."

See how that can go both ways?

Ryan

 

[Horus927]

I suppose worst case scenario I'd have to have my ear sewn back closed? That just seems a bit much though...
And i think it'll close far enough on its own, never all the way, but enough to look normal unless you plan on getting in close enough to nibble lol

 

[ronnieh]

I am not Richard but I can answer that one. Flying is not all that good of a career right now. As good as I have it I could not make a living flying for the person I fly for. Jobs are few and far between. Salaries are pitiful. CFI's make nothing. The commuters are barely above slave labor. The cost of the training to get a corporate job is rediculous. In short you may never be able to justify the investment in dollars and cents. It takes a genuine love of flying to make it work.

 

[Henning]

Thanks Ronnie.

I'm not waiting for some future job opportunity to clean up. Just not concerned with it while I'm still training. When i get to CFI training I probably will.

I've always had problems with fitting in and highly disagree with in-crowd mentality. That breeds discrimination. Not cool. I can't think of it like that.
I'm trying to get myself to like the idea rather than seeing it as something i have to make myself do..

Go up to Alaska, they don't care if you have a foot growing out of your forehead up there.

 

[Horus927]

Honestly, that's a bit tired. Just about everyone associates with some crowd. You may like one crowd better than the other, but you're still in one. You may like the Harley-Davidson "rebel" crowd better, or the surfer-dude crowd, but it's still a crowd - associated with certain things. Same goes for the tattoos. Same goes for piercings. Same goes for the druggies in my neighborhood.

For me, God didn't make me with any piercings, or tattoos, and I never felt the need to get them. I'm not sure how that makes me part of a particular crowd, except maybe the crowd that didn't want to conform to something "different."

See how that can go both ways?

Ryan

I do. I was only replying to someone's earlier reply of joining the crowd. While I may have tried to fit in here and there, I always come back to the same conclusion of not wishing to be labeled as anything. Everything I chose to do I did because I wanted to, and because I had an interest, not to belong to any group. You'll find that I'm an outsider of any crowd I may seem to belong to. Even the pilot crowd. Because I am such a mix of different bits from different crowds I don't think I fully fit into any of them.

 

[Richard]

Can I get some clarification on this one?

When I think of ear plugs, I think of druggies wearing wife beaters. This isn't just me talking, it's numerous others.

The tats I've seen these days are far beyond the random 'tribal' tat. Meanwhile, the tat removal programs around the country have really taken off (pun unintended). It costs more to remove a tat than to have it made in the first place. That economics is because so many wish to remove their tats.

I have the thought you are from a foreign country. If true, do you conform to how your countrymen present themselves? You've already said you don't easily conform. The thing is, you picked an industry which places high value on conformance. Your results may vary.

I'd say the odds of a Van Halen-like band sticking around is about the same as as an aviation degree being worth much.

 

[Henning]

I agree but there doesn't seem to be room for that in the pilots world. Unless I land that dream job flying Van Halen around as mentioned earlier lol

I and several other people have already explained to you that there are indeed pilot job options available to you however you want to look. They are just not likely to be with airlines or corporate flight departments. When you fly pipeline patrol or freight down island, nobody cares, you can "let your freak flag fly" and as long as you get the job done and are courteous and hopefully fun, nobody is going to give a rats a$$ what you look like and you will be accepted. There are operations where the girl at the desk has more ink and holes than you do. They are not airline operations though.

If you truly do not regret your past, I can promise you, you will not be happy in an airline job or a typical corporate flying gig. You will hate it in fact. Everything you do is about conforming to a standard. Not better, not worse, on standard. There are companies that will dock you pay if you don't wear their uniform correctly. The airlines are a very pseudo-military managed affairs, especially for pilots.

 

[Richard]

Honestly, that's a bit tired. Just about everyone associates with some crowd. You may like one crowd better than the other, but you're still in one. You may like the Harley-Davidson "rebel" crowd better, or the surfer-dude crowd, but it's still a crowd - associated with certain things. Same goes for the tattoos. Same goes for piercings. Same goes for the druggies in my neighborhood.

For me, God didn't make me with any piercings, or tattoos, and I never felt the need to get them. I'm not sure how that makes me part of a particular crowd, except maybe the crowd that didn't want to conform to something "different."

See how that can go both ways?

Ryan

Hey man! True surfers are soul surfers...looking for the best line on the best wave. A dude is some city slicker prending to round up those lil doggies. Valley speak is, like, totally for wannabes. !1

 

[denverpilot]

Great lyric from a great band:

"If you wanna be somebody else... change your mind." - Sister Hazel

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/sisterhazel/changeyourmind.html

That and the brilliant:

"You were the one who taught me what I don't need, and I thank you for that."

http://www.elyrics.net/read/s/sister-hazel-lyrics/thank-you-lyrics.html

Pretty fun bunch of musicians, those guys from Gainesville. Wish they'd come back and play at the top of Steamboat Mountain again. That was a great show.

Riding the gondola after dark to the ski lodge for a concert is a great experience I highly recommend if y'all ever get the opportunity.

 

[Horus927]

I am not Richard but I can answer that one. Flying is not all that good of a career right now. As good as I have it I could not make a living flying for the person I fly for. Jobs are few and far between. Salaries are pitiful. CFI's make nothing. The commuters are barely above slave labor. The cost of the training to get a corporate job is rediculous. In short you may never be able to justify the investment in dollars and cents. It takes a genuine love of flying to make it work.

I hear mixed opinions on that.. Some say dying breed others are saying hiring madness around the corner. I'm not trying to strike it rich. Just trying to say up in the wind. And I'm not rooted to anything. I'd love for nothing more than to get moved all around constantly. I like travel. I'm also open to the idea of working abroad. I don't know how realistic that is.

 

[Horus927]

Go up to Alaska, they don't care if you have a foot growing out of your forehead up there.

Flying Alaska sounds amazing to me. Living in Alaska however.....

 

[RyanShort1]

Bottom line is this: You can dislike being painted in to a box all day, tomorrow, and the rest of your life. That will not change one thing. If you want to achieve something in this situation, you are the only one that can further that end, (as as Christian I would say that with God's help, 'cause sometimes it's awful hard to change). There are too many other people that you will deal with for you to change all of their minds... and some of them may very well be right while others are wrong.

Ryan

 

[Henning]

I do. I was only replying to someone's earlier reply of joining the crowd. While I may have tried to fit in here and there, I always come back to the same conclusion of not wishing to be labeled as anything. Everything I chose to do I did because I wanted to, and because I had an interest, not to belong to any group. You'll find that I'm an outsider of any crowd I may seem to belong to. Even the pilot crowd. Because I am such a mix of different bits from different crowds I don't think I fully fit into any of them.

Dude, it's really time to grow up a bit. Your story of "Uniqueness" is "unique" to everyone else as well. You aren't really an "individual" anyway, you are a member of a society. What you haven't found yet is your niche in that society.

 

[Horus927]

When I think of ear plugs, I think of druggies wearing wife beaters. This isn't just me talking, it's numerous others.

The tats I've seen these days are far beyond the random 'tribal' tat. Meanwhile, the tat removal programs around the country have really taken off (pun unintended). It costs more to remove a tat than to have it made in the first place. That economics is because so many wish to remove their tats.

I have the thought you are from a foreign country. If true, do you conform to how your countrymen present themselves? You've already said you don't easily conform. The thing is, you picked an industry which places high value on conformance. Your results may vary.

I'd say the odds of a Van Halen-like band sticking around is about the same as as an aviation degree being worth much.

It's sad to hear that my look envokes those images. I don't even like "that guy"! And I don't look dress or act that way at all.

I know about tat removal. I'd never do it. I like my art. That's why I got it.

I am Egyptian yes but American born and raised. From what I hear if i was raised in Egypt I probably would have been beaten straight by my elders. Yeeesh... (Though perhaps not so much anymore these days)

I hope you know I don't ACTUALLY expect to find a dream job like that.. still stranger things have happened..

 

[Richard]

Go up to Alaska, they don't care if you have a foot growing out of your forehead up there.

Which is another way of saying one has to prove themselves. Prove you are qualified, capable, trustworthy, reliable....

BTW, K. Being a CFI IS a being a professional pilot. It sounds like you are in an acceleated Part 141 curriculum. If so, the CFI is but a few months away. Start now. IOW, if I showed up to fly with a CFI and you were that CFI, you better know more than me. If you don't we're returning to land. If you have tats I might beat on you on the approach. I'll want my money back.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm also open to the idea of working abroad. I don't know how realistic that is.

How's your Chinese? Mandarin first, Cantonese if you're really motivated.

 

[Richard]

K, take it all in stride. You are being indoctrinated.


Wait...K?...Kimberley?...have we been played?

You can't hide for long behind a single letter and no profile.

 

[Horus927]

Dude, it's really time to grow up a bit. Your story of "Uniqueness" is "unique" to everyone else as well. You aren't really an "individual" anyway, you are a member of a society. What you haven't found yet is your niche in that society.

Yeah and it's irritating because that's so hackneyed that I look like an idiot trying to explain myself. Oh well, I still stand by what I say because it is was and probably will be true long before and after it was trendy.

No need to look down the nose at me either eh?

 

[Richard]

Yeah and it's irritating because that's so hackneyed that I look like an idiot trying to explain myself. Oh well, I still stand by what I say because it is was and probably will be true long before and after it was trendy.

No need to look down the nose at me either eh?

No one is looking down their nose at you. The way I see it, and how I think Henning is saying, everyone is trying to be so unique that being unique has become commonplace. It seems like this whole generation is lost and trying to be so unique. But everyone is trying so hard to be unique that it isn't unique anymore. Everyone has such a burning desire to express themselves as an individual that it has become a collective ideal, therefore less unique.

Need I go on?

 

[Horus927]

Which is another way of saying one has to prove themselves. Prove you are qualified, capable, trustworthy, reliable....

BTW, K. Being a CFI IS a being a professional pilot. It sounds like you are in an acceleated Part 141 curriculum. If so, the CFI is but a few months away. Start now. IOW, if I showed up to fly with a CFI and you were that CFI, you better know more than me. If you don't we're returning to land. If you have tats I might beat on you on the approach. I'll want my money back.

Well I'm working on proving that. And the bits of feedback I've been getting on my progress are encouraging. I know that being a CFI is being a professional.
I'm actually doing it 61. Just fly everyday. And I know my stuff. And I know anyone can just say that.

 

[Henning]

It's sad to hear that my look envokes those images. I don't even like "that guy"! And I don't look dress or act that way at all.

Yeah, but that's the problem, other people do make these associations. There's a cliched old phrase of "You never get a second chance to make a first impression" In this business most of the time a first impression is all the chance you get, and there's 1000 guys in that same line making a first impression for the same 20 jobs.

So far to me it sounds that you've done a lot of looking for yourself, and trying to create yourself, but you haven't really succeeded at it yet.

 

[Horus927]

How's your Chinese? Mandarin first, Cantonese if you're really motivated.

Lol I'm a fast learner!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I puiled over. I'm driving. K is not Kimberly. Though we've been in touch since before I joined POA - even studied on the phone together for the written exam. He beat me to the checkride (thanks) and ever since he's gone head first into his flight training. Can't comment much though since I've never seen a photo but I was initially shocked he had been turned away from a volunteer job.

 

[Horus927]

No one is looking down their nose at you. The way I see it, and how I think Henning is saying, everyone is trying to be so unique that being unique has become commonplace. It seems like this whole generation is lost and trying to be so unique. But everyone is trying so hard to be unique that it isn't unique anymore. Everyone has such a burning desire to express themselves as an individual that it has become a collective ideal, therefore less unique.

Need I go on?

I understood what he said completely. That was directed at the line "grow up dude"

 

[Richard]

So far to me it sounds that you've done a lot of looking for yourself, and trying to create yourself, but you haven't really succeeded at it yet.

If I may add to that, K, you sound like you are contemplative and you have identified behaviors and appearances which may act to hold you back and you have thought of the corrective actions. So, in that vein, as far as this forum is concerned, why don't you introduce yourself?

All we know is you are a heavily tatted budding pilot of Eygptian descent with aspirations to be a professional pilot who is known as "K".

We're all 'family' here. You can let your hair down.

 

[Richard]

I puiled over. I'm driving. K is not Kimberly. Though we've been in touch since before I joined POA - even studied on the phone together for the written exam. He beat me to the checkride (thanks) and ever since he's gone head first into his flight training. Can't comment much though since I've never seen a photo but I was initially shocked he had been turned away from a volunteer job.

AHA! I feel like Inspector Clouseu. The plot thickens.

Blind butler like man with fat wife; can't get around.