Amusing controller commet

[Sierra Victor]

I'd never change freqs without notifying ATC while on flight following but have said "field in sight" several times when they're too busy and miss the hand off. They always switch me quick.


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[N312RB]

I would just query the enroute or approach controller, as a courtesy if for no other reason. This happened frequently in ATL as the final controller was always busy and neglected to switch us to tower freq. occasionally. Usually I'd just say "(call sign) to tower". And there were times when final didn't acknowledge for whatever reason, so we'd just switch at 5 miles.

Happens at DEN all the time, especially at night. They come back with "NXXXX contact tower 133.3, good night" Works everytime

 

[Sundancer]

"Do you know what an airport traffic area is?"

"Sure do! Would you like me to call you and your boss on the ground, and explain it? I could explain gacked up hand-offs, and amateur hour coordination, too. . ."

But probably not fair, since there's likely a procedural goat rope he's dealing with, too, and ither behind tbe scenes bolloxed orocesses.

 

[MAKG1]

Perhaps impolite is a better word than unacceptable. For FF, I've requested a service that they are nice enough to provide. The reason for what I perceive to be a delayed hand off is not likely to USUALLY be that I've been forgotten.

It happens, more frequently than it should.

Shooting VFR approaches on a weekday late afternoon in a DEAD sector (I was all alone out there), Approach offered vectors to the SNS ILS, sent me outbound, and that was it. I called back when approaching the charted procedure (DME arc), got an "oops" and a couple more vectors, and a much longer ILS to track than I had expected.

That's a fairly unforgiving ILS, squeezed in between two mountain ranges. It was a good lesson in monitoring ATC.

 

[roncachamp]

"Do you know what an airport traffic area is?"

"Sure do! Would you like me to call you and your boss on the ground, and explain it? I could explain gacked up hand-offs, and amateur hour coordination, too. . ."

But probably not fair, since there's likely a procedural goat rope he's dealing with, too, and ither behind tbe scenes bolloxed orocesses.

I would have answered, "I know what an Airport Traffic Area was." That terminology was eliminated with airspace reclassification in 1993.

 

[flyingron]

We used to have a tower controller at CHO who used to argue with pilots about where they were.

 

[mulligan]

At my home airport we have one controller who is always friendly and light spirited. He even chuckles every now and then. He seems to have everything under control and when he does drop the ball quickly calls it out. The other day he said "Aircraft calling in, stand by for 20 seconds and I'll get to you." A few minutes went by and new aircraft called in and he gave them all instructions. I finally called up and said still standing by. He started laughing and said, your the guy I was looking for. Gave me directions, apologized and sent me on my way.

Then there is the "other" guy who is always grumpy seems to be annoyed to be there. I know if I ever get a number to call, who it is coming from

 

[luvflyin]

Cute story. And raises a procedure question since I've also experienced not being given the hand off until way later than I was expecting it.

Must you wait until the "existing" controller has handed you off, even if you need to tickle him, or can you make the PIC decision that you really need to be talking to tower and switch on your own?

There comes a time when ya gotta figure something is not right and you have to do something. After "prodding" Approach or Center, not getting a response and you're entering the traffic pattern it's time to be on Tower. Things have to pass the "logic check". Very brief transmissions to "prod" the controller I think work the best. "Tower for [call sign], "approach clearance for [call sign]. Starting it out with "how about" can be a good technique. The point is keep it brief and do it in a way the transmission is immediately recognized for what it is and doesn't start out sounding like just another typical transmission. I appreciated it like this as a controller and get good response from controllers using this technique as a pilot.

 

[Mopauly]

Potomac forgot about me once on a VFR trip to NC. I was pretty far south and never had a hand off; I could still hear them, tried to raise them a few times with no reply. I wasn't that far from my destination by that point so I squawked 1200 and changed freqs for the field. Only time it's ever happened to me, but based on how busy things can get and how difficult life as a controller is, I don't complain.

 

[flyingron]

I have flown out of FF a couple of times. One time, I was out over the eastern shore and could no longer raise approach so I just transmitted a cancellation in the blind and squawked 1200. By the time I got to Ocean City people in the pattern were relaying messages from PXT trying to find me.

I've been asked by ZTL to pop over to the SVH unicom and verify that a missing-in-action VFR got down OK as well.

And IFR is no solution to the problem. I've flown out of coverage without a handoff a couple of times. I've also had ATC seemingly forget about me. CLT approach had me overfly my destination and bearing down on the major CLT when I pointed it out to them.

Mistakes happen and there are obviously procedures in the system to handle it (don't hit nothing and do what you need to do to reestablish contact. With the modern GPS databases, it's trivial to find a new frequency).

What there is not a call for is misbehavior on either the pilot's or the controller's part when such things happen. Rude comments directed at the pilot I WON'T stand for. A controller can be assured that his supervisor will hear about it the next day. I don't insult the controllers (at least not over the air either). I had no issue with KPAH's tower's snarky comment about center (I found it amusing).

 

[Ravioli]

What other reason might there be?

Workload? I missed a call? Congested freq? My perception that the call should have happened was not accurate? People were voting for Trump?

Heck, all kinds of things could be happening.

I'm a little surprised that you are not in favor of resolving things with the point of last contact.

 

[roncachamp]

Workload? I missed a call? Congested freq? My perception that the call should have happened was not accurate? People were voting for Trump?

Heck, all kinds of things could be happening.

I'm a little surprised that you are not in favor of resolving things with the point of last contact.

I don't see what's to resolve. If you've been receiving flight following from Center and find yourself on about a two mile left base at your destination airport in Class D airspace you've been forgotten or you've missed a call. The reason you've been forgotten could be controller workload or congested frequency. The reason really doesn't matter, there's nothing to be gained by calling Center and asking if you should be on tower frequency, you should know you should be on tower frequency. You should have been on tower frequency before entering Class D airspace.

 

[MAKG1]

You should have been on tower frequency before entering Class D airspace.

No, you should have been on frequency for "the ATC facility providing air traffic services," which is something us lowly pilots are not privy to. It might be Tower, it might be Tower for a neighboring airport, it might be Approach, or it might even be Center. It simply is not true that all of Class D airspace is under the control of the tower inside. It's very common for bits to get traded with neighboring airports, or the top 1000 feet to get handled by Approach. There doesn't even have to be a tower.

We have to depend on handoffs, or ask. We might be able to guess under some circumstances, but not upon entering Class D. The regs do get a bit clearer if you are in the pattern of an airport with an operating control tower, but that happens well after entering Class D (some student patterns notwithstanding).

 

[coloradobluesky]

Approach or ATC hands pilots off to the Class D tower all the time. THEY are supposed to coordinate it. And they know that. Sometimes there is a glitch.

 

[mkosmo]

Approach or ATC hands pilots off to the Class D tower all the time. THEY are supposed to coordinate it. And they know that. Sometimes there is a glitch.

Or human error. We're all mostly human. As long as there's no paint swap or requirement to change pants, life's good. Worst case, if you feel it's a safety issue, file a NASA report. If there are enough of them, there will be a pattern identified and some kind of corrective action or training implemented.

 

[Velocity173]

No, you should have been on frequency for "the ATC facility providing air traffic services," which is something us lowly pilots are not privy to. It might be Tower, it might be Tower for a neighboring airport, it might be Approach, or it might even be Center. It simply is not true that all of Class D airspace is under the control of the tower inside. It's very common for bits to get traded with neighboring airports, or the top 1000 feet to get handled by Approach. There doesn't even have to be a tower.

We have to depend on handoffs, or ask. We might be able to guess under some circumstances, but not upon entering Class D. The regs do get a bit clearer if you are in the pattern of an airport with an operating control tower, but that happens well after entering Class D (some student patterns notwithstanding).

But we're not talking a transition through the D here. In a transition, while up approach / center, you're communicating with the ATC facility providing the service (FF). For an arrival to a class D, the ATC facility providing the service for a clearance to land is the tower controller. Only they can issue that clearance so at some point you need to be up their freq.

While a late freq change can be coordinated with the tower, the aircraft should be up the tower freq prior to entering the D. If you aren't, radar has forgotten about you.

 

[mscard88]

Just ask, no big deal.

 

[MAKG1]

But we're not talking a transition through the D here. In a transition, while up approach / center, you're communicating with the ATC facility providing the service (FF). For an arrival to a class D, the ATC facility providing the service for a clearance to land is the tower controller. Only they can issue that clearance so at some point you need to be up their freq.

While a late freq change can be coordinated with the tower, the aircraft should be up the tower freq prior to entering the D. If you aren't, radar has forgotten about you.

No. Leaving aside the one example of a full-time Class D with no tower at all, bits of airspace are handed off to neighboring sites on a routine basis. If I'm flying around KNUQ airspace over Shoreline Amphitheater (or the Googleplex if you prefer), I will often need to be in contact with Palo Alto Tower, even though it isn't their airspace. Even if I were landing at NUQ. That's a letter of agreement between the two towers. I've seen Palo Alto take over as much as half of Moffett's traffic pattern on a busy day.

What you can say is that you will certainly need to contact an operating tower before landing, but not necessarily before entering Class D, especially from neighboring C or D airspace. And Approach will sometimes hang on to you longer to dodge departing IFR traffic, for instance, even VFR. Controllers are sometimes hesitant to hand off during an active traffic call.

 

[roncachamp]

No, you should have been on frequency for "the ATC facility providing air traffic services," which is something us lowly pilots are not privy to. It might be Tower, it might be Tower for a neighboring airport, it might be Approach, or it might even be Center. It simply is not true that all of Class D airspace is under the control of the tower inside. It's very common for bits to get traded with neighboring airports, or the top 1000 feet to get handled by Approach. There doesn't even have to be a tower.

We have to depend on handoffs, or ask. We might be able to guess under some circumstances, but not upon entering Class D. The regs do get a bit clearer if you are in the pattern of an airport with an operating control tower, but that happens well after entering Class D (some student patterns notwithstanding).

You're wrong. When you're on about a two mile left base at your destination airport in Class D airspace" the ATC facility providing air traffic services" is the tower at that airport. Not the tower for a neighboring airport. Not Approach. Not Center. There is a requirement for radar controllers to coordinate flights through Class D airspace and it is fairly common for that coordination requirement to be waived by LoA but those have nothing to do with arrival traffic.

 

[roncachamp]

Approach or ATC hands pilots off to the Class D tower all the time. THEY are supposed to coordinate it. And they know that. Sometimes there is a glitch.

There is nothing to coordinate. They should transfer communications to the tower prior to the Class D boundary but if they fail to do that there is nothing that prevents the pilot from going over to tower on his own initiative.

 

[MAKG1]

You're wrong. When you're on about a two mile left base at your destination airport in Class D airspace" the ATC facility providing air traffic services" is the tower at that airport. Not the tower for a neighboring airport. Not Approach. Not Center. There is a requirement for radar controllers to coordinate flights through Class D airspace and it is fairly common for that coordination requirement to be waived by LoA but those have nothing to do with arrival traffic.

OK, I'll remember that next time I arrive at KPAO on a 2 mile final for 31 still talking to KNUQ, or the next time I fly into KVUO. Stephen says the local procedures are invalid. I'll really have to try hard to contact a tower that doesn't exist.

 

[Shawn]

They should transfer communications to the tower prior to the Class D boundary but if they fail to do that there is nothing that prevents the pilot from going over to tower on his own initiative.

So barring a lost coms scenario, you think it is OK to just leave an ATC frequency you are on under your own initiative without a query or instruction to do so on your current frequency?

You should have been on tower frequency before entering Class D airspace.

Not at all correct as a generalization. You have already established communication to enter the Delta assuming you are on FF and talking to ATC which is what we are discussing. I get handoffs to tower all the time well inside the Delta boundary.

 

[roncachamp]

So barring a lost coms scenario, you think it is OK to just leave an ATC frequency you are on under your own initiative without a query or instruction to do so on your current frequency?

In cases like this, yes, absolutely.

Not at all correct as a generalization.

It is absolutely correct as a generalization.

You have already established communication to enter the Delta assuming you are on FF and talking to ATC which is what we are discussing. I get handoffs to tower all the time well inside the Delta boundary.

Those would be late transfers of communication.

 

[FredStl]

You should "query ATC" any time there is any ambiguity...or if they forgot about you.

I learned that early on in my IFR flying. On a flight from Sarasota to Chattanooga I never got handed off until i was at 8,000 ft. over the field. I was trying to be an obedient pilot but the descent was ridiculous and a waste of time and fuel. I learned and now always question anything that doesn't seem right. I don't care if i annoy any controllers. In another example, coming into St. Louis, KC Center often gets you down to 4,000 ft. 60 - 80 miles out. That sucks during the Summer especially because of heat and bugs and loss of tailwind. Now i question it, ask where their hand-off is and the altitude they need at that point and ask if I can instead get a crossing restriction. That seems to never be a problem and often keeps me at altitude for 30 more miles or so.

 

[FredStl]

I'd never change freqs without notifying ATC while on flight following but have said "field in sight" several times when they're too busy and miss the hand off. They always switch me quick.


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That works every time.

 

[Timbeck2]

I just did the ABQ approach/Double Eagle II thing last Friday. They must have not been feuding that day so it was smooth for me...the turbulence on the other hand....

Not confirmed but the diner cook at Double Eagle used to be Ted Turner's personal chef. His food was really good.

 

[RyanShort1]

Comm2. It's that simple.

 

[Hank S]

There is nothing to coordinate. They should transfer communications to the tower prior to the Class D boundary but if they fail to do that there is nothing that prevents the pilot from going over to tower on his own initiative.

Hmmm . . . I was on ILS approach to 2 at KEZM in central Georgia, gas stop going to LAL from WV. Ceilings were 900 feet. Jax center didn't turn me over to the tower until inside the FAF. I was (still am!) used to a Class D tower handling the whole approach, not just the final leg. Yes, the tower was open, it was approaching lunchtime because departure was delayed by annoying fog. Couldn't see the 250-300 yards from my hangar to the runway . . .

 

[denverpilot]

I just did the ABQ approach/Double Eagle II thing last Friday. They must have not been feuding that day so it was smooth for me...the turbulence on the other hand....

Not confirmed but the diner cook at Double Eagle used to be Ted Turner's personal chef. His food was really good.

Sheesh you got all the good stuff. As you know they were cranky the day I was there and the diner was closed, so I ate something dumb out of the machine.

 

[danhagan]

I just did the ABQ approach/Double Eagle II thing last Friday. They must have not been feuding that day so it was smooth for me...

My only ASRS report was because of one of those handoffs (ABQ-Double Eagle) and the subsequent crap storm that started after ...

 

[johnxreid]

If I'm approaching around 10 nm out and haven't been handed off, I usually just drop a quick "have airport in sight" (assuming I actually do have it in sight).