American Airlines Mechanics Sue Airline

The union will be broken, the mechanics replaced, AMR is too big to fail now...
 
Henning said:
The union will be broken, the mechanics replaced, AMR is too big to fail now...
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The LA Longshoremen are apparently doing a work slowdown to protest being replaced by machines right now, too. Containers through the Port of LA were down 1% this month.

Their slowdown seems quite a bit sillier than the AMR mechanics at face value, but I always take anything I hear with "union" in the article with s grain of salt.
 
Interesting, I've flown over Long Beach a couple times this week and noticed there are a LOT of loaded container ships anchored outside the breakwater right now. Wonder if that's part of the reason.
 
StinkBug said:
Interesting, I've flown over Long Beach a couple times this week and noticed there are a LOT of loaded container ships anchored outside the breakwater right now. Wonder if that's part of the reason.
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Probably. You know it's hitting extra large levels of stupidity when it makes the news (granted the late night, no one is listening, talk radio kind, not during the talk show but at the top of the hour on a really slow national news day) in Colorado. ;)
 
Really, you mean like how Eastern was too big to fail. The IAM brought them down.
 
AA won't get shut down even if it's true. They'll be fined and then move on with life.
 
StinkBug said:
Interesting, I've flown over Long Beach a couple times this week and noticed there are a LOT of loaded container ships anchored outside the breakwater right now. Wonder if that's part of the reason.
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The situation in the Port of LA/LB has been going on for several months.
 
You know, I never understood the point behind unions trying to take down the company. To me, it's like the children killing the parents because they think the parents are being unfair. Ultimately, they lose.
 
Geico266 said:
That is a big if.
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I'd be surprised if any airline didn't have a few people who tried to cut corners. But there's a difference between that and a systematic problem. I'd be surprised if the union's claims were truly valid.
 
ahkahn said:
You know, I never understood the point behind unions trying to take down the company. To me, it's like the children killing the parents because they think the parents are being unfair. Ultimately, they lose.
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How is making sure the membership doesn't get fired for not committing fraudulent acts to be interpreted as "taking down the company"? The reason unions exist is because corporate leadership is so anti society.
 
Originally Posted by StinkBug
Interesting, I've flown over Long Beach a couple times this week and noticed there are a LOT of loaded container ships anchored outside the breakwater right now. Wonder if that's part of the reason.






Henning said:
The situation in the Port of LA/LB has been going on for several months.
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What situation is that ...:dunno::dunno:...:confused:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd be surprised if any airline didn't have a few people who tried to cut corners. But there's a difference between that and a systematic problem. I'd be surprised if the union's claims were truly valid.
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And I would be very surprised if every union didn't have a "make work" department looking to maximize work hours per plane. :rolleyes: ;)
 
N801BH said:
Originally Posted by StinkBug
Interesting, I've flown over Long Beach a couple times this week and noticed there are a LOT of loaded container ships anchored outside the breakwater right now. Wonder if that's part of the reason.









What situation is that ...:dunno::dunno:...:confused:
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Contract lapse for Longshoreman and Dockworkers on the west coast IIRC. There's several issues involved. Automation and understaffing is a big issue claiming that combined with the higher speeds being pushed for is getting dangerous.
 
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Geico266 said:
And I would be very surprised if every union didn't have a "make work" department looking to maximize work hours per plane. :rolleyes: ;)
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Doubt it. When you look at aircraft versus man hours for required and unplanned maintenance and the staffing numbers, the staffing side will be less. That coupled with the amount of out sourcing of various maintenance items adds in the equation. AA is not going to hire mechanics to sit around the breakroom.

One of the big gripes at AA is lack of personnel in the maintenance department, thus why AA is pushing to skirt around maintenance items. AA is not alone in this, lots os airlines are cutting back to up the bottom line. Every additional hour of unplanned maintenance per airframe impacts cost on many levels.
 
Yep, loss of revenue having the plane off the line is a way bigger problem economically than the cost of the maintenance itself.
 
Henning said:
Contract lapse for Longshoreman and Dockworkers on the west coast IIRC. There's several issues involved. Automation and understaffing is a big issue claiming that combined with the higher speeds being pushed for is getting dangerous.
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Are you saying that grown up men and woman are being told by union organizers to purposely slow down and cause bottlenecks which effect manufacturers, shippers, retailers and finally the end user, only because they are not happy with their contract?:dunno::dunno::confused:......
 
From what the OP said this doesn't sound like a negotiating tactic. Sounds more like there have been several instances of mechanics being pressured to sign a RTS on an aircraft without doing the work and have complained to the FAA. After several of these instances occurred the union sued on behalf of the mechanics.

Like I said. If this is actually the situation then I hope they succeeded. If it is just a work slowdown or some other type of socialist union BS then F*** the mechanics.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
From what the OP said this doesn't sound like a negotiating tactic. Sounds more like there have been several instances of mechanics being pressured to sign a RTS on an aircraft without doing the work and have complained to the FAA. After several of these instances occurred the union sued on behalf of the mechanics.



Like I said. If this is actually the situation then I hope they succeeded. If it is just a work slowdown or some other type of socialist union BS then F*** the mechanics.
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Really? I said all that? I just posted the news link.
 
N801BH said:
Are you saying that grown up men and woman are being told by union organizers to purposely slow down and cause bottlenecks which effect manufacturers, shippers, retailers and finally the end user, only because they are not happy with their contract?:dunno::dunno::confused:......
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Actually injury and accident rates due to the increase and automation have something to do with it. I haven't worked the port in a long time, but talked to some old buddies the other week when I was in LA. It's sounding like they are trying to push the envelope of safety and they want to maintain a safe pace.
 
flyingron said:
Really, you mean like how Eastern was too big to fail. The IAM brought them down.
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Eastern was tanked by Lorenzo. The IAM was locked out, the pilots and flight attendants struck in support. The unions were busted by the bankruptcy which was Lorenzo's goal from the beginning. The courts finally booted Lorenzo out but it was too late.

As for mechanics suing based on coercion and pressure to shortcut maintenance I'd say that is a very believable claim. There is no plausible reason I can think of for anyone to make these allegations up and how it could be construed as a union "trying to take the company down" is beyond me.
 
So American gets fined from the Feds,they pay ,increase the cost to the passengers,who wins?
 
We all "win" if those who are using coercion to shortcut maintenance are exposed and booted.
 
frfly172 said:
So American gets fined from the Feds,they pay ,increase the cost to the passengers,who wins?
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Well, they can only raise their prices so much - competition and all.
 
N801BH said:
Are you saying that grown up men and woman are being told by union organizers to purposely slow down and cause bottlenecks which effect manufacturers, shippers, retailers and finally the end user, only because they are not happy with their contract?:dunno::dunno::confused:......
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I can tell you when I worked for Express Jet DBA Continental Express, during contract negotiations, we were told not to go to the gates to fix aircraft between flights until the passengers were on board. They (lead mechanics) would send us over to an aircraft, deplane the passengers for maintenance, have us take our time completing the repairs and signing the log books. All this to show the company who was in control.

I worked a guy that got a job as a third shift supervisor at American Airlines in ORD. One night they had a 3 B777 that needed worked on for before the morning flights. He found the gate technicians sleeping with lights out at the brake room. He was about to wake them when a second supervisor told him not to wake them if he wanted any of the aircraft making an on time departure in the morning.
 
edessa said:
I can tell you when I worked for Express Jet DBA Continental Express, during contract negotiations, we were told not to go to the gates to fix aircraft between flights until the passengers were on board. They (lead mechanics) would send us over to an aircraft, deplane the passengers for maintenance, have us take our time completing the repairs and signing the log books. All this to show the company who was in control.

I worked a guy that got a job as a third shift supervisor at American Airlines in ORD. One night they had a 3 B777 that needed worked on for before the morning flights. He found the gate technicians sleeping with lights out at the brake room. He was about to wake them when a second supervisor told him not to wake them if he wanted any of the aircraft making an on time departure in the morning.
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And the 4 million union workers and bosses wonder why the other 300 million Americans HATE unions......:rolleyes::rolleyes::redface:
 
N801BH said:
And the 4 million union workers and bosses wonder why the other 300 million Americans HATE unions......:rolleyes::rolleyes::redface:
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That's why I got out. Couldn't deal with the union BS. Local president came in after the contract was signed to ask us to give more towards the union dues after only getting less than a dollar increase. He was driving a Cadillac Escalade ESV.
The unions had their place in the early 1900's. We wouldn't have the labor laws and OSHA laws we have today if it wasn't for those men and women that fought to have better and safer working conditions. Their (union) time has been up for a few decades.
 
As someone who has been a union mechanic for a major airline for the past 27 years I can say that during contentious contract negotiations techniques and tactics such as working "by the book" are often used by mechanics, pilots, flight attendants and ramp crews but never in my time has any union official EVER made any sort of statement promoting a work slowdown of any sort. For one thing it is completely illegal to do so under the rules of the RLA.

I have never worked for American but it is probably similar to the airline where I do work. Due to the outsourcing binge that began in the mid 90's there are now only about 4500 mechanics whereas in 1989 there were about 13,000. A consequence of this is that there are no new-hire mechanics, every one is a seasoned veteran with over 20 years so, at least in my environment, it is very difficult to imagine a supervisor being capable of intimidating or coercing a mechanic to cut corners or do something illegal by threat of termination. I don't see how it would be possible to terminate anyone for abiding by the maintenance documents though I suppose other forms of harassment might be possible.

I know for a fact however that such coercion does exist in the non-union repair stations to which most of the maintenance work was initially outsourced. I also know that in the long term it didn't pan out due to the poor quality of work coming out of those stations, including work paid for that just flat out was not done and that much of that maintenance work has been brought back in-house so that my airline is now looking at hiring new mechanics off the street for the first time in nearly two decades.

I can also say from my own experiences and observances that there are many ways to lose money with a big airline but attempts to make up losses from hair brained schemes, bad investments or lousy scheduling by dipping into the pockets of the people who fly and maintain the aircraft never works out.
 
Silvaire said:
Eastern was tanked by Lorenzo. The IAM was locked out, the pilots and flight attendants struck in support. The unions were busted by the bankruptcy which was Lorenzo's goal from the beginning. The courts finally booted Lorenzo out but it was too late.
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Eastern was in the crapper before Lorenzo got them. If they had been a viable airline to begin with Lorenzo wouldn't have been able to move in to begin with. The IAM and Borman were battling pretty much from the time he took over. The IAM actually pushed for the Lorenzo buyout (figuring that old Frank had to be better). The feds didn't displace Lorenzo for Marty until after they were in bankruptcy (the receiver represents the interests of the creditors more than the airline). Lots of blame to go around at Eastern from Borman to the AIM to ALPA to Lorenzo.

Couple of pretty good books on the thing including Jack E. Robinson's Free Fall (written by one of the execs who was there). He appears to have written that one rather than plagiarizing it like the one he "wrote" about Pan Am's descent.
 
Silvaire said:
As someone who has been a union mechanic for a major airline for the past 27 years I can say that during contentious contract negotiations techniques and tactics such as working "by the book" are often used by mechanics, pilots, flight attendants and ramp crews but never in my time has any union official EVER made any sort of statement promoting a work slowdown of any sort. For one thing it is completely illegal to do so under the rules of the RLA.

I have never worked for American but it is probably similar to the airline where I do work. Due to the outsourcing binge that began in the mid 90's there are now only about 4500 mechanics whereas in 1989 there were about 13,000. A consequence of this is that there are no new-hire mechanics, every one is a seasoned veteran with over 20 years so, at least in my environment, it is very difficult to imagine a supervisor being capable of intimidating or coercing a mechanic to cut corners or do something illegal by threat of termination. I don't see how it would be possible to terminate anyone for abiding by the maintenance documents though I suppose other forms of harassment might be possible.

I know for a fact however that such coercion does exist in the non-union repair stations to which most of the maintenance work was initially outsourced. I also know that in the long term it didn't pan out due to the poor quality of work coming out of those stations, including work paid for that just flat out was not done and that much of that maintenance work has been brought back in-house so that my airline is now looking at hiring new mechanics off the street for the first time in nearly two decades.

I can also say from my own experiences and observances that there are many ways to lose money with a big airline but attempts to make up losses from hair brained schemes, bad investments or lousy scheduling by dipping into the pockets of the people who fly and maintain the aircraft never works out.
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Care to explain the work slowdown by the union LongShoreMen in Long Beach California then ?
 
N801BH said:
Care to explain the work slowdown by the union LongShoreMen in Long Beach California then ?
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As far as I know the Longshoremen are not under the Railway Labor Act as are all airline employees.
 
So am I, what exactly is your point? :dunno:
 
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