Am I crazy for considering a V-Tail Bo?

westslopeco

westslopeco

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Westslopeco
Starting to look for a high performance complex. I have always thought the V-tails were sexy airplanes. Given the ruddervator situation, am I a fool for even considering buying one?

Tony
 
Mission #1:
Weekly trips between Delta CO (KAJZ) and Steamboat Springs, CO (KSBS), Wx permitting, with one person and light baggage. This is the main mission for the aircraft. I'm currently doing this in a GlaStar with an O-360. It does this quite well , TAS is consistently 128kts with 8.5 gph. My biggest complaint is on the afternoons when the Wx allows for a return flight, I have a fairly slow climb to altitude due to high DA. I'd like to have something with more power to increase both climb rate and effective cruise altitude. Increase speed would be nice, but won't really make much of a difference over the 140km flight.

Mission #2

My husband's family lives on the East Coast and my family lives on the West Coast. I'd like to be able to fly for visits 2-4 times a year. The GlaStar has such a low useful load that with both of us and our dogs, we could only take about 30 gallons of fuel. This makes the West Coast trip 3 legs and the East Coast trip so many legs as to be impractical. I know that the airlines would be a better way, at least for the East Coast. However my Husband has an unusual fear of flying, the bigger the airplane, the more scared he is. Basically he is terrified of the airlines, and loves flying in my airplane. This means that we rarely see his family as we have to drive. Having a serious XC plane would meen we could get out there more often.

My experience.

PP ASEL. Vfr only currently. I have about 330+ hours. I plan on getting my IFR, but would like to do this in the new airplane.
 
I don’t know that it’s necessarily crazy, but it could be considered a psychotic act that will require a one-time SI before you can switch to Basic Med. What does your HIMS psychiatrist say?
 
westslopeco said:
Mission #1:
Weekly trips between Delta CO (KAJZ) and Steamboat Springs, CO (KSBS), Wx permitting, with one person and light baggage. This is the main mission for the aircraft. I'm currently doing this in a GlaStar with an O-360. It does this quite well , TAS is consistently 128kts with 8.5 gph. My biggest complaint is on the afternoons when the Wx allows for a return flight, I have a fairly slow climb to altitude due to high DA. I'd like to have something with more power to increase both climb rate and effective cruise altitude. Increase speed would be nice, but won't really make much of a difference over the 140km flight.

Mission #2

My husband's family lives on the East Coast and my family lives on the West Coast. I'd like to be able to fly for visits 2-4 times a year. The GlaStar has such a low useful load that with both of us and our dogs, we could only take about 30 gallons of fuel. This makes the West Coast trip 3 legs and the East Coast trip so many legs as to be impractical. I know that the airlines would be a better way, at least for the East Coast. However my Husband has an unusual fear of flying, the bigger the airplane, the more scared he is. Basically he is terrified of the airlines, and loves flying in my airplane. This means that we rarely see his family as we have to drive. Having a serious XC plane would meen we could get out there more often.

My experience.

PP ASEL. Vfr only currently. I have about 330+ hours. I plan on getting my IFR, but would like to do this in the new airplane.
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I love the Vtail but considering the ruddervator situation, i'd probably pass for now. How about a mooney, they come in all ranges of speed from the C-model (quick) to the Ultra(FAST).
 
I owned a V-tail for 17 years, so I am a big fan. Go to Beechtalk.com and search for messages about the ruddervators. It appears there may be a solution.

Mine had a useful load of 1287 lbs and I planned for 175 knots, burning about 14-15 gallons per hour. I loved that I could maintain 1,000 fpm all the way up to 10,000 feet. Weight and balance is critical, because the CG range is quite small. If you do buy one, I recommend training with a CFI who knows Bonanzas, and read "Flying the Beech Bonanza" by John Eckalbar.
 
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MackMooney said:
I love the Vtail but considering the ruddervator situation, i'd probably pass for now. How about a mooney, they come in all ranges of speed from the C-model (quick) to the Ultra(FAST).
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The M20K 231 is definitely on the short list. The turbo should handle high DA departures well, plus should see good climb to altitude. Plus with the 360 engine they are very efficient. I'd almost never fly with four people, so the lower useful shouldn't be too much of a factor.
 
Half Fast said:
Have you considered a Debonair?
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Debs are on the short list for sure. Would want an IO-520 at a minimum, better would be an IO-550. I think I want either a big bore 6 cyl or a turbo 360cuin for my mission.
 
Lots of airplanes in this category have tough to find parts. As a V tail owner, I’m biased towards “I love it, so you’ll love it too”. If I had a ruddervator issue I’m sure I’d love mine less until I found a serviceable set.

Then, when I finally find some, I’d pay way too much money for yet another airplane part and fly happily into the sunset in the fast, cool, and comfortable style that only a V tail can.
 
If you are thinking about a Bo, I recommend starting that IFR training asap. You will likely either not be able to get insurance or it will be CRAZY expensive the first year and/or till you get your IFR.

Go for it, I have a 36 but they are all great airplanes.
 
Sorry, you are in turbocharged country. Get one. Please.

Particular for the longer flights and when you start to do them IFR.

Good news is they did make V33TC a couple of years. But get a TN or TC 36 anyway.
 
Steamflyer said:
Sorry, you are in turbocharged country. Get one. Please.

Particular for the longer flights and when you start to do them IFR.

Good news is they did make V33TC a couple of years. But get a TN or TC 36 anyway.
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That would be a V35TC.....and there is nothing wrong with them. The one pictured is a V35TC....two visible features: 1 - single large exhaust pipe, and 2 - the side cowl doors.
 
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Half Fast said:
FYI - To the Beech Aero Club folks, Bonanzas are known as "Musketeer Prototypes." :devil:
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Is that where the phrase “They just don’t build ‘em like they used to” originated? (Only ribbing, baby Beeches look like great airplanes)
 
Turbo Arrow would also be worth looking at.
 
What is your budget, next is a meridian or TBM 700???
 
westslopeco said:
However my Husband has an unusual fear of flying, the bigger the airplane, the more scared he is. Basically he is terrified of the airlines, and loves flying in my airplane.
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westslopeco said:
Budget is $150k, so not going to be burning kerosene any time soon.
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Have you priced a new husband? If you could eliminate the need to fly to the east coast, you might have more airplane options.
 
westslopeco said:
A 210 is more airplane than I need, but a TR182 would be a contender...
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Check insurance - may be very high at first and not sure can do a 210 VFR at all. For 150k you should be able to get a turbo 210 though likely an older one. TR182 is very nice though slightly unconventional as has carb and waste gate that is attached to throttle, not pressure controller. Often as pricey as a 210 if not more, a little less capable but close.

Personally like the high wing Cessnas as can see what I am flying over more easily. Seems to be part of the point…
 
MountainDude said:
T210 is more comparable to a Bo than a TR182, though I am sure a TR182 is a great plane.
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How do you figure? Four butts and bags. Wheels come up. Far more common than a (factory) turbo V tail Bonanza.
Now if you're talking A-36/T-36 I tend to agree.
 
westslopeco said:
The M20K 231 is definitely on the short list. The turbo should handle high DA departures well, plus should see good climb to altitude. Plus with the 360 engine they are very efficient. I'd almost never fly with four people, so the lower useful shouldn't be too much of a factor.
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I've got tons of time in a 231 and love that airplane. Useful load of the one I flew was close to 1100 lbs. The reason some people think they don't haul much is because they have large fuel tanks. Certainly compared to an early Bonanza they carry an obscene amount of fuel when you want to. Four butts? Half tanks and you still have more range than an early Bo (without dealing with tip tanks or baggage compartment tank).
The real reason I clicked on this post was because "360" can mean at least three different engines (Lycoming angle or parallel valve, and Continental six cylinder). To quote my old boss, "not same same".

I understand the struggle. I'm considering a V tail Bonanza just because it's always the right answer to the test question. Er, I mean it's a timeless classic I know I would enjoy.

I no longer consider older C-G Mooneys because I've been in a number of them (mostly giving BFRs) and they aren't as impressive as history would lead us to believe. 140 knots. BFD. My Cardinal RG could pull that off, and the rear passengers could still have lower limbs.

J or K? I'm still I'm.
 
IMHO - good to do some long range planning, but at this stage, don't buy the Bo or anything - not just yet.

1) Get that IFR. Use either your current plane if IFR capable or just rent.

2) Steamflyer and EvilEagle are spot on with insurance. Get a short list of planes you're interested in and check the rates and even if you're insurable. You might not be, and if you are it might be livable. Rough rule of thumb - retract is going to be twice as a fixed gear. Insurance companies seems to like the 500 hour mark, and you're a few years from that, so you might need to factor that into consideration.

3) Whose going to work on it and where will you get parts? If you can't get that magnesium tail what not and your plane sits for 6 months you're not going to be having a great time. I keep thinking of the RG 182 our club has. Nice speed. But wait - insurance is double, needed used gear saddles 5 years ago for $38k, and it just had a nose gear failure which did all sorts of bad things on landing.

5) Altitude. You had me at CO. Whoever already posted it, you should be looking at a turbo?

6) A budget of $150 is going to be hard to be honest for altitude, payload, speed. But you'll have another year or so getting that IFR, and have a chance to save up some more.

Maybe a snazzy RV 14 will catch your eye when the time comes.
 
Piper Comanches are a great traveling airplane and even normally aspirated, it loves flying in the low teen's.
 
Kristin said:
Piper Comanches are a great traveling airplane and even normally aspirated, it loves flying in the low teen's.
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A local flight school has a Comanche 260B. I am going to get some hours in it to see how it does up here.
 
westslopeco said:
A local flight school has a Comanche 260B. I am going to get some hours in it to see how it does up here.
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It will do well. B model and newer have easy to remove back seats which are handy for stashing the dogs. I have two big poodles and that is what I do. Turbo single Comanches are very rare, though there currently is one on TAP.
 
I think IR in the Rockies has a very limited utility with a an SEL, unless you have FIKI, so not sure why you are planning to get it. It's your money and time, so you decide.
T210 has similar speed and space as Bos, so I think they are comparable. Except T210 climbs way better above 10,000 ft.
 
aftCG said:
I've got tons of time in a 231 and love that airplane. Useful load of the one I flew was close to 1100 lbs. The reason some people think they don't haul much is because they have large fuel tanks. Certainly compared to an early Bonanza they carry an obscene amount of fuel when you want to. Four butts? Half tanks and you still have more range than an early Bo (without dealing with tip tanks or baggage compartment tank).
The real reason I clicked on this post was because "360" can mean at least three different engines (Lycoming angle or parallel valve, and Continental six cylinder). To quote my old boss, "not same same".

I understand the struggle. I'm considering a V tail Bonanza just because it's always the right answer to the test question. Er, I mean it's a timeless classic I know I would enjoy.

I no longer consider older C-G Mooneys because I've been in a number of them (mostly giving BFRs) and they aren't as impressive as history would lead us to believe. 140 knots. BFD. My Cardinal RG could pull that off, and the rear passengers could still have lower limbs.

J or K? I'm still I'm.
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that's just straight blasphemy, My E will smoke a 177, da40, piper pa28 alll day without really warming up.
140 is something like me flying LOP 8gph
 
she actually flies 148 to 155ish but i'm always LOP as it honestly doesn't matter, if i ran flat out, i'd arrive something like 5 to 10 mins sooner
 
MackMooney said:
she actually flies 148 to 155ish but i'm always LOP as it honestly doesn't matter, if i ran flat out, i'd arrive something like 5 to 10 mins sooner
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Fair enough. I'm absolutely not a Mooney hater, I've just learned that unless you shag them pretty hard the aren't that much faster than the planes we consider to be slow.
What speed mods does your E have?
 
MountainDude said:
I think IR in the Rockies has a very limited utility with a an SEL, unless you have FIKI, so not sure why you are planning to get it. It's your money and time, so you decide.
T210 has similar speed and space as Bos, so I think they are comparable. Except T210 climbs way better above 10,000 ft.
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Many Bonanzas, 210s, and some 182s can have TKS added. Some FIKI, some inadvertent, all excellent function. Would they help in a major winter storm? No, not at all. Are they handy in May landing in WY through a 5000' overcast? Absolutely. A good tool to have, and more than 30% of OP's budget, so probably moot.

Having flown the long distance flights OP mentions as part of motivation many times (i.e. actual across the countries), the ease of use of a big Cessna single cannot be beat. Two big doors, a big-to-cavernous separate baggage compartment with its own door, easy reach from front seat to rear for that lunch bag or to pet the dog... Also easier to load and unload pax. C.g. range is a bit more generous typically, and in my experience, a fully loaded Cessna doesn't fly all that differently from one flown solo.

As noted earlier Mooneys are not as fast as purported; later ones are good single purpose machines to go from A to B quickly, but really have less visibility and are the hardest to load IMHO.

Another thing in the Cessna/Beech's favor is mechanics familiarity and parts availability - not to be underestimated when maintaining a 50 year-old aircraft. Their (Textron piston) tech support is pretty good.

For many people a 182 is the best plane around - all the Cessna attributes plus easy to fly and insure. They even made a fixed gear turbo (T182) from about '78-'82. Not as sexy as the retract, but then no 20k gear saddles when they crack either. Next in line would be a Bonanza IMHO. After that, curios or many more dollars like an SR22. Traveling cross country extensively that's about what one sees in actual long distance use - 210s/182s, Bonanzas with various tails, and SR22s.
 
aftCG said:
Fair enough. I'm absolutely not a Mooney hater, I've just learned that unless you shag them pretty hard the aren't that much faster than the planes we consider to be slow.
What speed mods does your E have?
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I just have the LASAR cowl closure, my next speed mod is extended range tanks.

once you realize the diff between 130 and 150 is like 15 mins max on most xc's, it's easy to pull the levers back to get that 8gph fuel flow @ 140 and save cash.
On my original shopping list was the V-tail, 177rg, arrow and a cessna 337( still on the list ).

v-tail -- i crossed off due to ruddervators. they've been working on that problem for so long and there still isn't a fix.
177RG -- close, those two doors are amazing but ultimately, i decided for the price i'd get more plane elsewhere
arrow -- well these are ok but slower than the 177
da-40 -- really nice, love this plane but limited fuel and slowish,
337 -- will get this one day, figured i better learn owning with a simple plane first.

so good things about mooney
-- efficient, i can fly faster or i can save gas, most likely still going faster than the planes above
-- easy CG, basically if it fits, you're probably okay.
-- reliability, the thing is dead simple, no wonky landing gear, wing ads, etc... that being said some mooneys have a landing gear actuator that has a gear that is just as unobtanium as those ruddervators.
-- price, at similar price points you simply get more mooney, esp, for the 177's they are really proud of those
 
StraightnLevel said:
What do the extended range tanks get you on the Mooney? What's your real-world range, and are those available as STC for all models?
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My E only has 52 gallon tanks, no wind poh max range 950ish Statute miles. Long range tanks add >30 gallons so say another 3 hours. Realistic miles, probably 650 - 700 ish. I've pushed about 600 maybe twice.

Now that i'm IR, I plan using IR fuel reserves even when flying VFR, so 3 hour legs, 450 - 500ish nm. Longrange tanks would add another 3 hours so i'd be able to do 6 hour legs. Meaning, i could make my common houston - indianapolis, 775nm, flight nonstop with IR reserves. so say 5.5 hours,

same trip today takes approx 7 hours due to having to stop for fuel, talk, file, putz around etc...

ultimate plan is to pop over the pond, so i need the extra fuel for safety
 
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