Aluminum trucks coming. Big industry bet - what will consumers say?

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http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/11/11/ford-starts-production-new-aluminum-f-150/?intcmp=features

The launch of the 2015 Ford F150 truck was delayed a few months from the rest of the line up for more testing on their big new bet for an all AL truck body. The truck is supposed to go into production today and be avail in dealer lots on Dec 6th or later depending on location.

As noted in the link, the lower cost of fuel is factoring against the new truck's improved fuel economy. Also, some of the buyers are going to be loyal because the product hasn't really changed much for 20 years. Some gewgaws have been added, and a new ecoboost engine was sourced(but the numbers aren't that impressive), but overall the F150 truck of 1994 was the same as 2014. Steel cab, steel bed, steel frame, plastic interior. Now, it's steel frame, AL body, AL bed, plastic interior.

Gonna be interesting, and I wonder what GM, Dodge and Toyota are going to say about the switch. I predict some brawny commentary about "'merecun STEEL panels" or some such.
 
I think we have to wait for safety data and collision repair costs to know whether Ford made the right move. In terms of weight and corrosion resistance, aluminum makes sense. But higher repair costs (or injuries) and the resulting higher insurance costs would be a turn off for all but brand loyalists.

As an aside, I often wonder why other companies never copied Saturn's polymer panels. They had the weight and corrosion advantages, but also had enough resiliency (at least when new) to resist impacts that would have deformed metal panels.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
I think we have to wait for safety data and collision repair costs to know whether Ford made the right move. In terms of weight and corrosion resistance, aluminum makes sense. But higher repair costs (or injuries) and the resulting higher insurance costs would be a turn off for all but brand loyalists.
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All true.

RJM62 said:
As an aside, I often wonder why other companies never copied Saturn's polymer panels. They had the weight and corrosion advantages, but also had enough resiliency (at least when new) to resist impacts that would have deformed metal panels.

Rich
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Yeah, no wonder Saturn is doing so well today.
Uh, wait.
Never mind.
 
Plastic and fiberglass have had their own issues over the years. Hey, I still have an Avanti in my garage, too. Not sure why repair or injuries would be much worse with aluminum. There's already cars that have aluminum body panels to various extents. At least with a truck the body is mostly spurious since the thing sits on a real frame.
 
RJM62 said:
I think we have to wait for safety data and collision repair costs to know whether Ford made the right move. In terms of weight and corrosion resistance, aluminum makes sense. But higher repair costs (or injuries) and the resulting higher insurance costs would be a turn off for all but brand loyalists.

As an aside, I often wonder why other companies never copied Saturn's polymer panels. They had the weight and corrosion advantages, but also had enough resiliency (at least when new) to resist impacts that would have deformed metal panels.

Rich
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Saturn changed from the FRP body panels in the last few years of production. Of course, that was after GM took them back in house to try and prop up their crappy bottom line, because Saturn was making money, and all the other divisions weren't.

FRP body panels are nothing new. I also have an Avanti, and it's hand laid glass. It's heavy for the material used, but it was really innovative back in 62. in aviation we have a lot of respect for AL panels, and I'm guessing that a lot of us won't have any trouble buying one. But - the truck market can be fickle when you're dealing with the best selling and most profitable sector of a major mfg company. I wouldn't lay long odds that Ford is keeping the steel panel presses handy in case the thing goes down in flames. They gotta sell it hard, and it's gotta catch on with the loyal customers. It's gonna be a big risk.
 
The 3rd Party companies were selling aluminum tubs for CJ jeeps for years. It's not impossible. The question is if the economics of this works.

BTW, what I would like to see more is the so-called "Ute bed". In this country it is only seen on Home Depot rental trucks. Of course being a flatbed it loses the loading height to the conventional pickup bed, but in my ignorant opinion it's a worthy trade for ability to reconfigure it.
 
I know it's going into a truck, but how does aluminum compare to steel for door dings, hail, and paintless dent repair?
 
bartmc said:
Saturn's demise was somewhat political and can be blamed on the unions and mismanagement.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/08/saturn-gm-innovation-leadership-managing-failure.html
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My nephew was a general manager for a Honda dealer in the 80s, reported on lots and lots of new Saturn owners coming in, begging him or his sales people to somehow get them out of this awful car they had purchased recently.owners reported bad build, rattles, lots of cabin air noise etc. like so many ill designed Detroit cars ,GM was its own worst enemy. The unions did not design the Saturn, GM Did. The Saturn was a barking dog.
 
Matthew said:
I know it's going into a truck, but how does aluminum compare to steel for door dings, hail, and paintless dent repair?
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My guess is Aluminum will be more "fragile" and that might sink the whole concept...
Time will tell...:rolleyes:
 
My '09 Nissan 370Z's hood, doors, fenders and rear hatch are all aluminum. I haven't noticed any particular ease of denting/dinging. I'm super cool with it. Better mileage and better power/weight ratio.
 
Saturn had the distinction of being the most repoed car brand at one time...
As for aluminum bodies, sure I'll buy one used in ten years if they last...
 
I will be watching to see how they hold up in the north country where the roads are heavily salted in winter.
 
Not many steel aircraft around. I had a 3000 austin Healy, aluminum (alloy) hood, trunk deck, porsche is big in aluminum panels. I've never had a problem. Probably more aluminum parts around that are unknown. Another reason to have a hangar and a garage.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Not many steel aircraft around. I had a 3000 austin Healy, aluminum (alloy) hood, trunk deck, porsche is big in aluminum panels. I've never had a problem. Probably more aluminum parts around that are unknown. Another reason to have a hangar and a garage.
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My wife's car has Al hood, front fenders, and trunk lid. Big deal. I think the Audi A8 has been all aluminum since 1997.

This isn't new technology.
 
Going to be an interesting impact on me. Especially since AL brings in significantly more than a crushed car body.

Once we start getting those trucks, we're going to have to talk to our scrap buyer about how we can max out the revenue.
 
The success will come down to purchase and insurance premium vs. rust and fuel costs. These days rust isn't the issue it was 2 decades ago, so that is almost a moot point.
 
have some former corworkers who are now at ford and I have learned a little bit about how it's going. As soon as we have a date for our return to the US later next year, I'm going to order one.
 
Although Nissan's aluminum parts for the Z seem to work well, a number of people complain of corrosion of Explorer hoods. Apparently the galvanic corrosion is the cause, but not caused by the contact with the rest of the body. Instead, it starts where invisible steel dust particles get on the aluminum because the facility is shared with conventional steel parts. On the upside, Ford is bound to know that this stuff happens from those early aluminum experiments.
 
From a dealer perspective, I am very excited about the new truck and so are my customers!:yes: It will be interesting to see how the new powertrains work with the lighter weight trucks, 700 lbs is a big drop in empty weight! The only issue I see is a slightly higher cost to repair in certain collisions, no rust issues, painting will be the same, only certain body repairs will require a special "all aluminum" work area.
We have a small body shop and I am not participating in the aluminum certified repair station through Ford. We just don't do the volume to justify spending $50K on special tools and a seperate work area for 3-5 trucks per year. :nono: We will go that route as more trucks get on the road and more are wrecked, but right now it's not worth the investment/expense. :D
 
AggieMike88 said:
Going to be an interesting impact on me. Especially since AL brings in significantly more than a crushed car body.

Once we start getting those trucks, we're going to have to talk to our scrap buyer about how we can max out the revenue.
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Mike..... Question....

Back 30 + years ago a few of my buddies owned junk yards ( now called recycling centers).. To sell to a scrap buyer they had to strip the car, separate all the different products and then crush them..... Lately I see cars/trucks stuffed on flatbed semi's with everything still attached to the wreck..... Back then they had a crusher that made cubes about 3foot square.... Nowadays, All I see are wrecks pancaked flat about 2 feet tall, and there are still rubber tires on the crushed rims, glass, interiors etc. etc...

Whats the deal :dunno::dunno:..

I am assuming you guys are going to have to strip off aluminum stuff and sell it it that way ???:dunno:
 
Yes, Ford is requiring dealer owned body shops to have seperate tools and work areas for aluminum body repairs. :D

zaitcev said:
Although Nissan's aluminum parts for the Z seem to work well, a number of people complain of corrosion of Explorer hoods. Apparently the galvanic corrosion is the cause, but not caused by the contact with the rest of the body. Instead, it starts where invisible steel dust particles get on the aluminum because the facility is shared with conventional steel parts. On the upside, Ford is bound to know that this stuff happens from those early aluminum experiments.
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N747JB said:
From a dealer perspective, I am very excited about the new truck and so are my customers!:yes: It will be interesting to see how the new powertrains work with the lighter weight trucks, 700 lbs is a big drop in empty weight! The only issue I see is a slightly higher cost to repair in certain collisions, no rust issues, painting will be the same, only certain body repairs will require a special "all aluminum" work area.
We have a small body shop and I am not participating in the aluminum certified repair station through Ford. We just don't do the volume to justify spending $50K on special tools and a seperate work area for 3-5 trucks per year. :nono: We will go that route as more trucks get on the road and more are wrecked, but right now it's not worth the investment/expense. :D
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That's one thing, painting will not be the same, getting paint to stay on aluminum is much more difficult than steel. That is one area I am interested to see what they have done.
 
Henning said:
That's one thing, painting will not be the same, getting paint to stay on aluminum is much more difficult than steel. That is one area I am interested to see what they have done.
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I was about to ask about the painting. It seems every time EPA or factories change paint formulations the problems pop up a couple years later. Whether it results in paint/primer loss of adherence to the panels and big sections of bare spots on hoods and fenders or it's clearcoat that peels, something always seems to go wrong at first.

I'm sure it's been figured out by a lot of manufacturers, but Ford F150 lines haven't done it before.
 
Henning said:
That's one thing, painting will not be the same, getting paint to stay on aluminum is much more difficult than steel. That is one area I am interested to see what they have done.
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Same thing we have been doing on Aluminum planes for 70 years... Scuff up the skin,,, spray a etching primer on, scuff /lightly sand, spray on the top coat........

It would take some serious sandblasting to get the Imron off my plane...:yes:
 
Matthew said:
I was about to ask about the painting. It seems every time EPA or factories change paint formulations the problems pop up a couple years later. Whether it results in paint/primer loss of adherence to the panels and big sections of bare spots on hoods and fenders or it's clearcoat that peels, something always seems to go wrong at first.

I'm sure it's been figured out by a lot of manufacturers, but Ford F150 lines haven't done it before.
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It is a complex problem made more so by low volatility requirements. Aluminum is just a difficult surface to maintain adhesion. Planes only do as well as they do because they do not see much for rock chips. On boats, it's a freaking nightmare and we even have thick barriers of epoxy fairing.
 
N801BH said:
Same thing we have been doing on Aluminum planes for 70 years... Scuff up the skin,,, spray a etching primer on, scuff /lightly sand, spray on the top coat........

It would take some serious sandblasting to get the Imron off my plane...:yes:
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Do auto manufacturers use Imron? I always figured they have to use the cheapest stuff they can get away with.
 
N801BH said:
Same thing we have been doing on Aluminum planes for 70 years... Scuff up the skin,,, spray a etching primer on, scuff /lightly sand, spray on the top coat........

It would take some serious sandblasting to get the Imron off my plane...:yes:
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Not with a car, it takes one rock chip, then oxidation forms on the surface of the Al and starts lifting the paint, and more water and mineral salts get thrown up at it and it expands and creates a blister that lifts the Imron, or Awl-Grip, or whatever paint off the surface. I have spent a career dealing with trying to keep paint on aluminum in harsh environments, not particularly easy. All it takes to strip Imron off airplanes is rain.
 
My 61 MGA and 63 Landrover had aluminum body panels. They've been doing it for a very long time. Aluminum has been used in big over the road trucks for even longer. Weight that you aren't carrying as part of the transporter is weight you can carry in the the transporter. All you need to do is look at trucks and trailers at truck stops to see how durable and long lasting alloy bodies are. Not a big deal as far as I can see. As for corrosion it doesn't rust but it does corrode...especially where its in contact with other metals like steel. White fluff is a bad thing and salty roads won't help. I think the F150 and trucks of that size are non runners til they put proper diesels in them. That should be the first thing....screw the ally panels.


Frank
 
Honda made the Gen 1 Insight with an aluminum body. Other then a higher cost to fix I have never heard of a problem because of it.
 
N801BH said:
Mike..... Question....

Back 30 + years ago a few of my buddies owned junk yards ( now called recycling centers).. To sell to a scrap buyer they had to strip the car, separate all the different products and then crush them..... Lately I see cars/trucks stuffed on flatbed semi's with everything still attached to the wreck..... Back then they had a crusher that made cubes about 3foot square.... Nowadays, All I see are wrecks pancaked flat about 2 feet tall, and there are still rubber tires on the crushed rims, glass, interiors etc. etc...

Whats the deal :dunno::dunno:..

I am assuming you guys are going to have to strip off aluminum stuff and sell it it that way ???:dunno:
Click to expand...

Now, the shredder machinery is waaay more sophisticated and can separate the "fluff" from the good stuff.

The cubes and logs are sometimes too dense to enter the shredder and need to go through an additional process to cut off manageable slices. Flattened cars can enter the hammer mill end very easily.

Very large hammers attached to a large rotating drum rip the car into small manageable pieces. Magnets quickly separate the ferrous material. Then eddy, air, and water currents separate the remainder. Ferrous goes out one conveyor, copper and aluminum out others, and the remainder out it's exit. All are valuable commodities and will be sold.

I'd have to find the reference, but I think there is less than 2% of any vehicle that cannot be recycled into new material and products.

So our current process after the vehicle arrives is
  • to use our supply/demand data to know what part types to inventory (about 60-70% of the total vehicle) and what can be ignored (low or no demand)
  • I use the Hollander Interchange, a Windows 8 Tablet, and Inventory Buddy (www.buddyai.com) to record all of the parts that are sellable and what is too far damaged to sell
  • The interchange tells me that for that year/make/model, the options for that part type are "this" "that" "and" "the" "other". Allows me to accurately inventory the item so that when you call for a need from your vehicle, the interchange system allows me to quickly cross reference your request (demand) with my supply.
  • Demand data also tells me if the part needs to be remove immediately (high demand) or not (low demand). High value parts are removed anyway to protect them and speed up order filling. Same with parts that would likely get damaged in the yard and will sell within the 60-120 day window.
  • Pricing on each major part is reviewed to make sure I'm keeping up with market and seasonal trends.
  • I'm also looking at 4 or 5 major core buyers worth of data. Inventory Buddy will highlight any part that has a high value to the core buyers. This helps me flag parts that they want and I can immediately sell to them. (and never have to worry about warrantying them :) )
  • Inventory is uploaded into our system.
  • Dismantlers are tasked with taking the car apart.
    • The computer system "scores" the individual cars to see which needs to be processed first
    • Or the next is chosen because of an order for a major component (engine, transmission, rear diff, large sheet metal cut)
    • They print their "dismantle orders" (list of all the inventoried parts, categorized as W)arehouse, U)n-bolt, Y)ard bolted, and C)ore) and the tags.
    • All "W" parts are removed, inspected, tagged and eventually placed in the correct storage rack
    • "U" parts are unbolted and stored in the car.
    • "Y" parts are left bolted to the car
    • "C" parts are removed and placed into the correct core buyers box or bin.
    • All parts are inspected for interchange accuracy and general quality. Incorrect interchange is marked to be corrected. General quality is marked to be changed if needed (example, I said the part was not damaged, but they found something I missed).
    • Emphasis is placed on getting both quality of the part and quality of the information as high as possible.
    • Valuable scrap (cats, Aluminum, Copper, and more) is removed. This includes most alloy wheels as most never sell and I'd rather get my $18 per wheel now versus waiting on $50 that never comes.
    • Parts are then put away into the rack. We use barcoded tags on both the part and the rack to increase accuracy and efficiency here.
    • Car is put into the boneyard.
  • We segregate the cars into "A", "B", and s"C"rap areas, based on residual value after processing. "A" cars have lots of value and we plan to keep them for as long as a year. "B" cars are our normal bread/butter and we plan on keeping them about 120-180 days. sCrap cars have very little value left and will live another 45-60 days.
  • General rule is a 1 to 1 ratio of dismantle and crush. This is to keep not get clogged up with non-productive cars and to keep the scrap revenue rolling.
  • When "crushing" we review the "Y" and "U" parts to determine if anything is worth saving, remove any that are, then literally toss the car into a large dumpster. I am not large enough to dedicate room for a car crusher, and I have a good deal going with the metal recycler 1/4-mile up the road. He leaves the dumpster, and empties it every morning, and sometimes in the afternoon if needed. Every week I go collect my money. The valuable scrap is sold weekly too.

As Henning said, it is VERY much about turns. Inventory sure, but money turns more importantly. Goal is to get 3 maybe 4 turns out of every dollar each year. The really good places are getting 5 turns.

There are so many facets in this industry, that if you feel you're not making it or are bored out of your skull, you're not doing it right and need to change. Those that embrace and look forward to new challenges (the internet, social medial, all aluminum F150's, hybrid cars, etc) are going to do well. And that's what I am endeavoring to do.
 

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Hey John747, since I mentioned turns for my business, what is the typical money turns per year for your dealership?
 
N801BH said:
Is that iron or aluminum prices ??:dunno:

Must be iron ...:confused:
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It's the "per ton" price I'm getting for my flattened cars currently and my current rate for yanking your chain.
 
AggieMike88 said:
It's the "per ton" price I'm getting for my flattened cars currently and my current rate for yanking your chain.
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Wow... 90 cents a lb for mixed scrap..... I figured it would be 1/4 that...

As for the "yank your chain fee".... Henning will pay for that with Hydrogen stock shares...:D
 
BiffJ said:
My 61 MGA and 63 Landrover had aluminum body panels. They've been doing it for a very long time. Aluminum has been used in big over the road trucks for even longer. Weight that you aren't carrying as part of the transporter is weight you can carry in the the transporter. All you need to do is look at trucks and trailers at truck stops to see how durable and long lasting alloy bodies are. Not a big deal as far as I can see. As for corrosion it doesn't rust but it does corrode...especially where its in contact with other metals like steel. White fluff is a bad thing and salty roads won't help. I think the F150 and trucks of that size are non runners til they put proper diesels in them. That should be the first thing....screw the ally panels.


Frank
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I used to love the aluminum flatbeds when I worked at my dad's machine shop. Same guys in and out every week. $$$$$$
 
N801BH said:
Wow... 90 cents a lb for mixed scrap..... I figured it would be 1/4 that...
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Used to be more pre-2006/2007 recession. Up to near $350-$400 per ton when the Chinese were building up toward their olympics and that massive hydro dam.
 
I have three Porsches and they all have various bits in AL. It's not that any of this is new, or unheard of in the car market, it's a risk because the F150 is a consumer truck, where steel used to be king, and most of the retail customers want a steel truck. It just has the sound of something strong and durable. AL has the sound of something light, and frangible such as an airplane. The only thing that sounds even more frangible is maybe fabric.

If I needed a new truck I wouldn't hesitate to get one, but my 02 Dodge will tow what I need, and it's still working well at 204k miles. I might go chat with them about trading in but I don't think I'll get much traction unless sales are thin.

I hope John keeps us up to date on actual truck sales, and not the marketing fluff that will surely be touted by Ford. I wish them well, and I'm always a fan of the Ford way of doing things, but we will see what we will see.

There was another story about the scraps that were leftover in the press plants of the body shop. Where in the steel days, they would just pile it up out in a yard, everything is now being recycled back to the AL supplier. According to Ford, this is saving about $87 per truck in return materials. That seems like a lot of trim scrap to me, but maybe right.
 
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