Alternate Missed Approach

[NealRomeoGolf]

So much for my speculation that they're probably just going to give GINIA thing to every one. Lets play what if. You have the 530. You also have a DME. An actual standalone DME receiver in the plane. Watcha gonna do if you miss?

I wanted to do GINIA. I intended to do GINIA. Being an IFR rookie I didn't realize my 530 wouldn't give it to me. So now I am sitting here figuring out what to do in the future. I just learned how to program it in Garmin Pilot. I have an FS210 that I could then send to the 530 as a flight plan edit. It's a lot of programming while in the soup though. Of course I can always navigate without the GPS. I do know how. In fact, I had the 272 radial all dialed in while I was flying this but was trying to follow the GPS at the same time. When my needle never centered is when I started realizing that I obviously did not brief the missed well enough.

I think I might call down to Springfield approach and see if I can get someone to tell me how they view the world. I doubt this approach would be on my checkride but I'd rather know than not.

 

[luvflyin]

I wanted to do GINIA. I intended to do GINIA. Being an IFR rookie I didn't realize my 530 wouldn't give it to me. So now I am sitting here figuring out what to do in the future. I just learned how to program it in Garmin Pilot. I have an FS210 that I could then send to the 530 as a flight plan edit. It's a lot of programming while in the soup though. Of course I can always navigate without the GPS. I do know how. In fact, I had the 272 radial all dialed in while I was flying this but was trying to follow the GPS at the same time. When my needle never centered is when I started realizing that I obviously did not brief the missed well enough.

I think I might call down to Springfield approach and see if I can get someone to tell me how they view the world. I doubt this approach would be on my checkride but I'd rather know than not.

Yeah. I wouldn't go on a Checkride that included that airport without having a chat about it with the DPE before taking off. Hopefully some 530 Guru's, which I am not, will check in here with the 'buttonology' you're looking for. If you find out what color the sky is at Springfield Approach let us know

 

[midlifeflyer]

By the way, Garmin Pilot also loads the CALDE missed for that one and I don't see a way to switch it to the alternate. Anyone with ForeFlight see the same thing?

Because the database considers a GPS navigator to be ADF equipped

 

[midlifeflyer]

he ILS 31 at Springfield KSPI has two misses based on whether you have ADF or DME.

I think that discussion of "alternative missed" is misplaced when talking about this approach. Typically, when a chart talks about an alternative missed, it is talking about a primary missed approach and a published alternative in case one of the navaids goes down. When the alternate missed is in effect because a navaid identifying the missed hold is down, there is a NOTAM which includes how to get there - the climb and turn instructions.

This is similar but different in two important respects. First, it's based on aircraft equipment not navaid equipment. Second, it tells you how to get there. I'm doing a bit of educated guesswork here, but my take is that, although it says it's for "DME equipped aircraft" it means "for non-ADF capable" aircraft. IOW, the missed at CALDE is the missed approach, with GINIA a substitute if you lack ADF-capable equipment And since it is a aircraft equipment issue and not an ATC issue, it's up to the pilot ask for it.

"Unable CALDE. Request the missed to GINIA."

Yeah. I wouldn't go on a Checkride that included that airport without having a chat about it with the DPE before taking off. Hopefully some 530 Guru's, which I am not, will check in here with the 'buttonology' you're looking for. If you find out what color the sky is at Springfield Approach let us know

The buttonology comes down to rolling your own, just as one might with any missed approach instructions other than the one in the database. Being both capable of flying and identifying the missed approach, there's no need for the extra workload of entering a Course-To-Fix to GINIA and flying the appropriate course to intercept, and flying an ad hoc hold when you get there.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah. I wouldn't go on a Checkride that included that airport without having a chat about it with the DPE before taking off. Hopefully some 530 Guru's, which I am not, will check in here with the 'buttonology' you're looking for. If you find out what color the sky is at Springfield Approach let us know

I ran this one. The good news is the buttonolgy on this one is easier than I thought. The only real problem on the GNS is that you have to figure and fly the hold (which is on the other side of GINIA) as opposed to painting it as you would with a (later) G1000, GTN or IFD.

 

[luvflyin]

I think that discussion of "alternative missed" is misplaced when talking about this approach. Typically, when a chart talks about an alternative missed, it is talking about a primary missed approach and a published alternative in case one of the navaids goes down. When the alternate missed is in effect because a navaid identifying the missed hold is down, there is a NOTAM which includes how to get there - the climb and turn instructions.

This is similar but different in two important respects. First, it's based on aircraft equipment not navaid equipment. Second, it tells you how to get there. I'm doing a bit of educated guesswork here, but my take is that, although it says it's for "DME equipped aircraft" it means "for non-ADF capable" aircraft. IOW, the missed at CALDE is the missed approach, with GINIA a substitute if you lack ADF-capable equipment And since it is a aircraft equipment issue and not an ATC issue, it's up to the pilot ask for it.

"Unable CALDE. Request the missed to GINIA."


The buttonology comes down to rolling your own, just as one might with any missed approach instructions other than the one in the database. Being both capable of flying and identifying the missed approach, there's no need for the extra workload of entering a Course-To-Fix to GINIA and flying the appropriate course to intercept, and flying an ad hoc hold when you get there.

"...but my take is that, although it says it's for "DME equipped aircraft" it means "for non-ADF capable" aircraft..." I don't know about that. It says what it says "DME equipped aircraft..." If you have ADF and DME, you are a DME equipped aircraft. You do what it says. "...climb to 1700, then climbing left turn to 3200 via SPI R-272 to GINIA INT/SPI 19.7 DME and hold." Maybe what you said is how someone was thinking when they built the Approach. If so, that's not good. IAP's are not a thing where 'do what I meant, not what the Chart says' should be happening. Have you ever seen anything like this on another Chart?

 

[luvflyin]

I ran this one. The good news is the buttonolgy on this one is easier than I thought. The only real problem on the GNS is that you have to figure and fly the hold (which is on the other side of GINIA) as opposed to painting it as you would with a (later) G1000, GTN or IFD.
View attachment 95955

Calling @NealRomeoGolf 's attention to this

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Calling @NealRomeoGolf 's attention to this

That's what I did in my simulator this morning as well. You just can't paint the hold. Have to do it manually.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Calling @NealRomeoGolf 's attention to this

We'll see if he can figure out how to fly the hold with the GNS.

"...but my take is that, although it says it's for "DME equipped aircraft" it means "for non-ADF capable" aircraft..." I don't know about that. It says what it says "DME equipped aircraft..." If you have ADF and DME, you are a DME equipped aircraft. You do what it says. "...climb to 1700, then climbing left turn to 3200 via SPI R-272 to GINIA INT/SPI 19.7 DME and hold." Maybe what you said is how someone was thinking when they built the Approach. If so, that's not good. IAP's are not a thing where 'do what I meant, not what the Chart says' should be happening. Have you ever seen anything like this on another Chart?

I said it was just an educated guess. I say it because because (a) the MAHF at CALDE is primary, as in the first one mentioned and (b) it's the one in the database for a until capable of flying either. Practically (including practical test) speaking, there's not a chance I would show lousy ADM and risk management by voluntarily foregoing the one already in the database in favor of one where I could make multiple errors.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's what I did in my simulator this morning as well. You just can't paint the hold. Have to do it manually.

Did you do the hold itself? We can compare notes .

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Did you do the hold itself? We can compare notes .

If you can paint a hold in the 530W then I don't know how. I can paint it in Garmin pilot though.

 

[luvflyin]

We'll see if he can figure out how to fly the hold with the GNS.

I said it was just an educated guess. I say it because because (a) the MAHF at CALDE is primary, as in the first one mentioned and (b) it's the one in the database for a until capable of flying either. Practically (including practical test) speaking, there's not a chance I would show lousy ADM and risk management by voluntarily foregoing the one already in the database in favor of one where I could make multiple errors.

Gotcha.

 

[luvflyin]

If you can paint a hold in the 530W then I don't know how. I can paint it in Garmin pilot though.

And @midlifeflyer. Just brainstorming here. Could you go OBS with a 092 Course To GINIA? It wouldn't 'paint the hold' for you but you'd at least get the inbound leg up in Magenta.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you can paint a hold in the 530W then I don't know how. I can paint it in Garmin pilot though.

And @midlifeflyer. Just brainstorming here. Could you go OBS with a 092 Course To GINIA? It wouldn't 'paint' the hold for you but you'd at least get the inbound leg up in Magenta.

Yes, once crossing GINIA, OBS to 092 to paint the inbound course.

Here's what I actually did (if yo can't follow the description, I recorded the session and can try to edit for clarity.

1. The course from the MAP to GINIA is 272. So I have that nice magenta line already. It goes to GINIA and stops there.
2. 272 is also the reciprocal of the 092 inbound course for the hold, so we're talking a parallel or teardrop entry. I happen to prefer teardrop, so that's what I did in the trainer.
3. Crossing GINIA, turn left 30° (you'd continue straight if you did parallel).
4. Once established outbound, switch to OBS mode and create the 092 inbound course. Now you have a nice magenta line for the inbound.
5. After a minute outbound, turn inbound.
6. Cross GINIA, turn outbound.
7. Rinse and repeat #5 & 6 as necessary.

 

[luvflyin]

Yes, once crossing GINIA, OBS to 092 to pain the inbound course.

Here's what I actually did (if yo can't follow the description, I recorded the session and can try to edit for clarity.

1. The course from the MAP to GINIA is 272. So I have that nice magenta line already. It goes to GINIA and stops there.
2. 272 is also the reciprocal of the 092 inbound course for the hold, so we're talking a parallel or teardrop entry. I happen to prefer teardrop, so that's what I did in the trainer.
3. Crossing GINIA, turn left 30° (you'd continue straight if you did parallel).
4. Once established outbound, switch to OBS mode and create the 092 inbound course. Now you have a nice magenta line for the inbound.
5. After a minute outbound, turn inbound.
6. Cross GINIA, turn outbound.
7. Rinse and repeat #5 & 6 as necessary.

Well, ya gotta push a few buttons but I really wouldn't call it that much of a 'pain'

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Yes, once crossing GINIA, OBS to 092 to pain the inbound course.

Here's what I actually did (if yo can't follow the description, I recorded the session and can try to edit for clarity.

1. The course from the MAP to GINIA is 272. So I have that nice magenta line already. It goes to GINIA and stops there.
2. 272 is also the reciprocal of the 092 inbound course for the hold, so we're talking a parallel or teardrop entry. I happen to prefer teardrop, so that's what I did in the trainer.
3. Crossing GINIA, turn left 30° (you'd continue straight if you did parallel).
4. Once established outbound, switch to OBS mode and create the 092 inbound course. Now you have a nice magenta line for the inbound.
5. After a minute outbound, turn inbound.
6. Cross GINIA, turn outbound.
7. Rinse and repeat #5 & 6 as necessary.

Cool. This finally gives me a reason to understand the OBS function.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well, ya gotta push a few buttons but I really wouldn't call it that much of a 'pain'

You should know by now I can't type.

Fixed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Cool. This finally gives me a reason to understand the OBS function.

It has a couple of uses. Intercepting a radial or course is another, although many Garmin users prefer the course-to-fix function for that.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

It has a couple of uses. Intercepting a radial or course is another, although many Garmin users prefer the course-to-fix function for that.

I'm weird (and I think it might annoy my CFII but he lets it go). I like using NAV2 to go for VOR radials. I don't like tracking them on the 530.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm weird (and I think it might annoy my CFII but he lets it go). I like using NAV2 to go for VOR radials. I don't like tracking them on the 530.

Absolutely nothing wrong with intercepting and tracking VOR radials using VOR. There are a number of tasks which are far simpler that way.

The issue with not knowing how with GPS is when it's not a VOR radial but some random waypoint. That's a potential issue in a MON world.

 

[aterpster]

This is similar but different in two important respects. First, it's based on aircraft equipment not navaid equipment. Second, it tells you how to get there. I'm doing a bit of educated guesswork here, but my take is that, although it says it's for "DME equipped aircraft" it means "for non-ADF capable" aircraft. IOW, the missed at CALDE is the missed approach, with GINIA a substitute if you lack ADF-capable equipment And since it is a aircraft equipment issue and not an ATC issue, it's up to the pilot ask for it.

"Unable CALDE. Request the missed to GINIA."

I suspect ATC has to protect for both possibilities.

Here is another one:

 

[midlifeflyer]

I suspect ATC has to protect for both possibilities.

Here is another one:

You are probably right. Since ATC doesn't know what equipment you have, you might use either without saying anything. "Up to the pilot to ask" is kind of my usual "IFR Rule No1 - always be on the same page as ATC. It would be interesting to hear from local TRACON about how they handle it when not giving custom missed instructions.

 

[luvflyin]

You are probably right. Since ATC doesn't know what equipment you have, you might use either without saying anything. "Up to the pilot to ask" is kind of my usual "IFR Rule No1 - always be on the same page as ATC. It would be interesting to hear from local TRACON about how they handle it when not giving custom missed instructions.

Yeah. GPS being a substitute for DME adds a layer to the discussion. The Approach @aterpster posted above says DME aircraft and Non-DME aircraft. The Approach that started this discussion says DME equipped aircraft. I’m not saying it makes a specific difference. But some pilots may read something into it one way or the other and maybe a Controller might do the same. Does /G or any other suffix that indicates RNAV substitutiability for DME mean you are a DME or DME equipped aircraft. I’d wager 99.something of pilots would say so. Controllers, dunno if it’s going to be quite that high. Ergo, your IFR Rule #1 should be taken as Gospel. I may try to find Springfields phone number and see what they, make that whichever person I talk to that day, has to say about it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I may try to find Springfields phone number and see what they, make that whichever person I talk to that day, has to say about it.

I tossed the question up on the two Facebook groups I'm in which include controllers. We'll see if I get an answer there other than, "oh we never give either. It's always a custom missed."

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Yeah. GPS being a substitute for DME adds a layer to the discussion. The Approach @aterpster posted above says DME aircraft and Non-DME aircraft. The Approach that started this discussion says DME equipped aircraft. I’m not saying it makes a specific difference. But some pilots may read something into it one way or the other and maybe a Controller might do the same. Does /G or any other suffix that indicates RNAV substitutiability for DME mean you are a DME or DME equipped aircraft. I’d wager 99.something of pilots would say so. Controllers, dunno if it’s going to be quite that high. Ergo, your IFR Rule #1 should be taken as Gospel. I may try to find Springfields phone number and see what they, make that whichever person I talk to that day, has to say about it.

I was planning on calling Springfiled tomorrow.

 

[luvflyin]

I was planning on calling Springfiled tomorrow.

Ok. I’ll hold off

 

[aterpster]

You are probably right. Since ATC doesn't know what equipment you have, you might use either without saying anything. "Up to the pilot to ask" is kind of my usual "IFR Rule No1 - always be on the same page as ATC. It would be interesting to hear from local TRACON about how they handle it when not giving custom missed instructions.

Honolulu Control has an ASR on the ground at Lihue. As soon as you declared a missed, the tower would probably give you a heading and hand you off to HCF.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Honolulu Control has an ASR on the ground at Lihue. As soon as you declared a missed, the tower would probably give you a heading and hand you off to HCF.

Thats a custom missed instruction.

 

[luvflyin]

Thats a custom missed instruction.

That’s being vectored after you’ve begun your missed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

From a Springfield controller (my emphasis).

OK, here is my best "controller answer" **Disclaimer I am NOT a CFII, but I have been a controller for quite some time. That being said, this chart in particular used to have "Radar required" which has been changed to ADF or DME required. It is my understanding that the "radar required" portion of this was because there was a navaid that was unusable or the pilots couldn't find it without it (ie.. CALDE). I assume GPS is why it has changed because pilots that have the ability to clearly define CALDE and can navigate the approach (and the missed) if they have it, if not they must resort to the DME missed. While I definitely understand your question and confusion, I believe it is for the "RADAR REQUIRED" portion going away due to the fact that most aircraft are GPS equipped now. I believe rather than how you are reading this (and rightfully so!). If I am correct in my analysis of your question, it should say like GPS equipped do the first missed, if not fly the one in parentheses.

Does that make sense? (Not a smart ass question just curious if that makes sense from the pilot perspective).

As a side note, if the tower is open you will always get alternate climbout instructions here unless you specifically request the PM. If you are in question which to do, just ask and we will get to the bottom of it together. If the tower is closed and Center is working it, if you want to make sure you are both in the same page ask them if they have a preference (in the event you can do either). I agree with the person above, the first missed approach is what I would default to if you can do it . As a controller, I would definitely ask you which one you were doing if it mattered.​

In another comment he added that if he cared which you did, he'd tell you.

And yesterday, they would typically give custom climbout instructions.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That’s being vectored after you’ve begun your missed.

Good point. Custom is before.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

From a Springfield controller (my emphasis).

OK, here is my best "controller answer" **Disclaimer I am NOT a CFII, but I have been a controller for quite some time. That being said, this chart in particular used to have "Radar required" which has been changed to ADF or DME required. It is my understanding that the "radar required" portion of this was because there was a navaid that was unusable or the pilots couldn't find it without it (ie.. CALDE). I assume GPS is why it has changed because pilots that have the ability to clearly define CALDE and can navigate the approach (and the missed) if they have it, if not they must resort to the DME missed. While I definitely understand your question and confusion, I believe it is for the "RADAR REQUIRED" portion going away due to the fact that most aircraft are GPS equipped now. I believe rather than how you are reading this (and rightfully so!). If I am correct in my analysis of your question, it should say like GPS equipped do the first missed, if not fly the one in parentheses.

Does that make sense? (Not a smart ass question just curious if that makes sense from the pilot perspective).

As a side note, if the tower is open you will always get alternate climbout instructions here unless you specifically request the PM. If you are in question which to do, just ask and we will get to the bottom of it together. If the tower is closed and Center is working it, if you want to make sure you are both in the same page ask them if they have a preference (in the event you can do either). I agree with the person above, the first missed approach is what I would default to if you can do it . As a controller, I would definitely ask you which one you were doing if it mattered.​

In another comment he added that if he cared which you did, he'd tell you.

And yesterday, they would typically give custom climbout instructions.

Thanks for posting that Mark. Basically, if you have a GPS or ADF, fly CALDE. If you don't have a GPS or an ADF (like my last plane before my final upgrade) but have DME, fly GINIA. My old Archer would've been going to GINIA. The Lance goes to CALDE.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for posting that Mark. Basically, if you have a GPS or ADF, fly CALDE. If you don't have a GPS or an ADF (like my last plane before my final upgrade) but have DME, fly GINIA. My old Archer would've been going to GINIA. The Lance goes to CALDE.

That's the ATC explanation.

From my standpoint, I would always fly the missed which loaded from the database along with the approach unless instructed to the contrary. You've already seen there are steps which need to be taken to do otherwise. But don't forget this is a dialog, so be sure you are on the same page as ATC.

Another caution: You still need to know how to do this*. As you probably know, most if not all ground based navaid approaches have an official alternative missed which is used if a navaid defining the missed is OTS. When it is in use, it is via NOTAM and, if you didn't read the NOTAM, ATC will read the instruction to you. Some of them are more complicated than this one.

(*if you know how to do this, you are ahead of the game. I'd bet a lot of pilots wouldn't have a clue what to do. An alternate missed is on my list of I'm going to test it out - I'm adding it to my short list of "GPS Tasks Pilots Don't Know" -although this task can be done with ground based navaids too - I use for recurrent instrument training. A friend just asked me to do an IPC for him. Guess what he's getting? We have a local approach which is perfect!

 

[RussR]

most if not all ground based navaid approaches have an official alternative missed which is used if a navaid defining the missed is OTS.

Mark, your use of the word "most" is not quite correct. And it's certainly not "all".

"Most" ILS procedures will have an Alternate Missed, yes. That is because the ILS really can't serve as the Missed Approach course guidance, so by definition there has to be another NAVAID involved (like heading to a VOR).

However, few VOR approaches have an Alternate Missed, because the Missed Approach is usually based off the same NAVAID as the final course is. So, no need for an Alternate Missed if you can't fly the procedure anyway.

Additionally, there are quite a few ILS procedures with no Alternate Missed, normally because of one of two reasons - 1) there are no nearby NAVAIDs with useful geometry to provides such an Alternate, or 2) ATC preference to not have one since they're going to issue vectors anyway.

 

[luvflyin]

@midlifeflyer . Are you using the word alternative instead of alternate for a particular reason? If so, is it somehow related to your use of 'custom' missed approach?

 

[luvflyin]

Mark, your use of the word "most" is not quite correct. And it's certainly not "all".

"Most" ILS procedures will have an Alternate Missed, yes. That is because the ILS really can't serve as the Missed Approach course guidance, so by definition there has to be another NAVAID involved (like heading to a VOR).

However, few VOR approaches have an Alternate Missed, because the Missed Approach is usually based off the same NAVAID as the final course is. So, no need for an Alternate Missed if you can't fly the procedure anyway.

Additionally, there are quite a few ILS procedures with no Alternate Missed, normally because of one of two reasons - 1) there are no nearby NAVAIDs with useful geometry to provides such an Alternate, or 2) ATC preference to not have one since they're going to issue vectors anyway.

I ain't betting money on it, but I think I have seen ILS's with a reverse course miss and fly back out the Localizer to a DME Fix based on the Localizer DME. In that case, an Alternate would not be required. I think. Maybe they treat the DME as a different facility.

 

[Jim K]

Thanks for posting that Mark. Basically, if you have a GPS or ADF, fly CALDE. If you don't have a GPS or an ADF (like my last plane before my final upgrade) but have DME, fly GINIA. My old Archer would've been going to GINIA. The Lance goes to CALDE.

We flew that approach on my checkride, but we never discussed the Ginia missed. I would've never thought to do it, as my understanding is that you fly the missed as written in the upper right hand box unless you are told otherwise, or simply can't. Interesting discussion though. You have a knack for finding all the oddball stuff around here.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

We flew that approach on my checkride, but we never discussed the Ginia missed. I would've never thought to do it, as my understanding is that you fly the missed as written in the upper right hand box unless you are told otherwise, or simply can't. Interesting discussion though. You have a knack for finding all the oddball stuff around here.

I was wondering if you had gotten that one. You were busy at Rough River so I left you to the fun and didn't text you about it.

 

[luvflyin]

We flew that approach on my checkride, but we never discussed the Ginia missed. I would've never thought to do it, as my understanding is that you fly the missed as written in the upper right hand box unless you are told otherwise, or simply can't. Interesting discussion though. You have a knack for finding all the oddball stuff around here.

It is in the upper right hand box. If you are DME equipped, you go to GINIA.

 

[midlifeflyer]

@midlifeflyer . Are you using the word alternative instead of alternate for a particular reason? If so, is it somehow related to your use of 'custom' missed approach?

Yes, but not too well. If you look at the source document for approaches with a second missed approach if a navaid is OTS (and @RussR is right; I was thinking in terms of ILS/LOC approaches), it is referred to as an "ALTERNATE" missed approach. So I'm trying to avoid using that term except for that (as I said, not too well).