All women Deltra crew flies 120 girls to NASA HQ

Status
Not open for further replies.
A private organization putting together an event to expose girls to careers in STEM or aviation, and an airline supporting it by putting together an all female crew, does not deprive any male of any opportunities he would have had otherwise.


So if it had been for boys only would you say the girls had not been deprived of any opportunity?

If gender discrimination is wrong we should stop doing it.

Period.

Rationalizing that new injustices are necessary because of prior injustices is baloney. Those who choose to discriminate always seem to have some "greater good" excuse.
 
So, STFU,

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, or at all women generally. But in either case, the answer is no.

<deep breath>

If there are any young women or student pilots out there who are still reading this thread despite all of its dreadfulness and hostility, or lurking on this board wondering what kind of community the pilot community is and whether or not to join it: It is okay to stop reading here, and it is okay to not join an online fray. You deserve better. You are not alone. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat; my handle is "kath".

<exhale>
 
I'm not sure if this was directed at me, or at all women generally. But in either case, the answer is no.

<deep breath>

If there are any young women or student pilots out there who are still reading this thread despite all of its dreadfulness and hostility, or lurking on this board wondering what kind of community the pilot community is and whether or not to join it: It is okay to stop reading here, and it is okay to not join an online fray. You deserve better. You are not alone. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat; my handle is "kath".

<exhale>


I will gladly make the same offer to any young woman aspiring to fly who would like encouragement from someone who believes women are as capable as anyone, can stand on their own two feet, and don't need special treatment.
 
@kath

You have bigger balls than many.

Tim (sorry, I just could not resist; and I love your offer of encouragement)
 
Full disclosure....I did fly over +30 snot nosed females one year for the 99's. ;)
 
FWIW at one of the 99's events I was at with you, where the girlscouts came and looked at all of the planes out at APA, most of the girls and many of the parents were claiming about how they wanted to be flight attendants, not pilots... It seemed like they just thought that was their "place" in society. While there's nothing wrong with being a flight attendant, it sure seems like the girl's aspirations were lower than those of boys and I think that's due to societal issues and stigmas more-so than a matter of interest.
But, as you say, there’s nothing wrong with being a flight attendant. Not only that, the percentage of male flight attendants exceeds the percentage of female pilots. According to a number of sites, it’s about 25%. I’ve had plenty of men say to me they would not want to be a pilot. It’s true that, on average, men and women have different interests, and that people are curious when someone chooses a profession outside their gender norm. But if someone really wants to do something, they can overcome any perceived stigma.
 
So if it had been for boys only would you say the girls had not been deprived of any opportunity?

I have done the aviation merit badge for my son's all-boys scout troop, didn't deprive any girl of anything.

If gender discrimination is wrong we should stop doing it.

If this was gender discrimination, then yes, we shouldn't be doing it.



I am very critical of gender based softening of hiring standards for jobs where physical condition and strength matter. Most prominently for public safety professions. If you can't climb up six flights of stairs with full protective gear or complete a single pull-up, you probably shouldn't be a career firefighter (on the flip side, if you are male and turned into a bag-o-lard while on the job, you should be purged as well).
 
Last edited:
It would be great if we could see prejudice and discrimination as something that occured in the past and had gone the way of the dinosaur. Unfortunately it is still with us, albeit not as prevalent fortunately. Someone once said we must stand together or hang separately. Consider this a personal challenge to help our beloved activity, aviation, and society as a whole grow, mature, and flourish. Hold fast and encourage the good in yourself and others.

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. I was recently diagnosed with stage IV cancer so each day is a precious gift to be savored and a fleeting opportunity to encourage each of us to be our best. Please be encouraged and enabled to be your best.

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first...
 
It would be great if we could see prejudice and discrimination as something that occured in the past and had gone the way of the dinosaur. Unfortunately it is still with us, albeit not as prevalent fortunately. Someone once said we must stand together or hang separately. Consider this a personal challenge to help our beloved activity, aviation, and society as a whole grow, mature, and flourish. Hold fast and encourage the good in yourself and others.

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. I was recently diagnosed with stage IV cancer so each day is a precious gift to be savored and a fleeting opportunity to encourage each of us to be our best. Please be encouraged and enabled to be your best.

Wag more, bark less, and never bite first...
Very good points. Sorry that I couldn't "like" your post because of that diagnosis. But hang in there. I have known several cancer survivors, including my brother who is fighting back from stage 4 pancreatic cancer. They all tell me that attitude is so important. If you believe you can beat it, your chances improve. Another good friend of mine is battling inoperable metastatic squamous cell carcinoma. She is just about finished a grueling regimen of chemo and radiation therapy and the doctors are very optimistic. She is still making plans to expand the business she bought from me four years ago.

And some people worry about things like a corporation sponsoring an event to expose young women to aviation. Astounding.
 
Who cares?

Sorry but real racism, sexism, etc is all but dead in this country.

If they want to do some women’s rights stuff go to the Middle East and go have some protests.

Closest thing we have to a class system is the government ruling class vs everyone else, but that’s just what voting for big government gets ya.
 
Jon...hope you're feeling better soon Pal.....God speed...and get well. ;)
 
... It’s true that, on average, men and women have different interests, and that people are curious when someone chooses a profession outside their gender norm. But if someone really wants to do something, they can overcome any perceived stigma.


Yep! And it works both ways. I have a nephew who is a CNA and studying to become an RN, which sometimes gets some curious responses.
 
Who cares?

Sorry but real racism, sexism, etc is all but dead in this country.

If they want to do some women’s rights stuff go to the Middle East and go have some protests.

Closest thing we have to a class system is the government ruling class vs everyone else, but that’s just what voting for big government gets ya.

Nah, we do have bona fide socioeconomic castes of private citizens in this Country. The 10 percenters vote-in the dispossession and repression of the bottom 90 all day every day via our system of legalized corruption/bribery aka Buckley v Valeo et al, of which the government ruling class you point to are mere henchmen/hired hands for.

But we can walk and chew gum at the same time. No false dichotomy here. Both our statements can be and are concurrently true. Which is another way of saying I agree with the premise of your post.
 
James wake up and smell the coffee! Prejudice, racism and too many other *.ismsare all too present right here in the good old USA. Have we made progress, very definitely! Do we have a way to go before these issues are in our rear view mirror, yes. Too frequently these are considered dead except in certain parts of the country but anyone who follows the news and has a brain capable of thought cannot say we have truly conquered these issues.

I grew up in the deep south during the 50's and 60's but never swallowed the racism hate...and let's be clear racism exists throughout our country and does not depend upon ignorance or stupidity to exist. As a young child, I was constantly amazed at people who would accuse non whites of being lazy and untrustworthy but then hire them to raise their children and run their households. My parents had several businesses and used the services of a craftsman who could do plumbing, carpentry, masonry everything except electrical work. He was illiterate so we would show him a picture of what needed done. I remember watching him and my father pace off the lot around a building we owned then dad showed him a picture of the type of brick fence he wanted built. Mose thought for a minute then told dad how much mortar, sand and brick to buy. When Mose was done there were a few bricks and handsfull of mortar and sand left over.

Our maid, who raised me, was tried for murder. Her first husband came home drunk one time too many and the last time he did this he attacked Ella and one of their sons. Ella hit him over the head with a coca cola bottle and killed him. Self defense but the local cops charged her with murder. Dad defended her and got her released but our family and businesses were threatened several times during the trial and we lost a few customers.

My first degree is from a historically black college. During the three years I was there my dorm room was vandalized and I was threatened several times. So I've experienced racism in a close and visceral manner...watching our society has me convinced we have made progress but still have far to go.

Ok, off the soapbox...
 
Who cares?

Sorry but real racism, sexism, etc is all but dead in this country.

If they want to do some women’s rights stuff go to the Middle East and go have some protests.

Closest thing we have to a class system is the government ruling class vs everyone else, but that’s just what voting for big government gets ya.

Oh sexism exists and I for one am getting tired of being paid less than a woman for doing the same work!

https://www.essence.com/news/young-single-women-earn-more-than-men/
 
James wake up and smell the coffee! Prejudice, racism and too many other *.ismsare all too present right here in the good old USA. Have we made progress, very definitely! Do we have a way to go before these issues are in our rear view mirror, yes. Too frequently these are considered dead except in certain parts of the country but anyone who follows the news and has a brain capable of thought cannot say we have truly conquered these issues.

I grew up in the deep south during the 50's and 60's but never swallowed the racism hate...and let's be clear racism exists throughout our country and does not depend upon ignorance or stupidity to exist. As a young child, I was constantly amazed at people who would accuse non whites of being lazy and untrustworthy but then hire them to raise their children and run their households. My parents had several businesses and used the services of a craftsman who could do plumbing, carpentry, masonry everything except electrical work. He was illiterate so we would show him a picture of what needed done. I remember watching him and my father pace off the lot around a building we owned then dad showed him a picture of the type of brick fence he wanted built. Mose thought for a minute then told dad how much mortar, sand and brick to buy. When Mose was done there were a few bricks and handsfull of mortar and sand left over.

Our maid, who raised me, was tried for murder. Her first husband came home drunk one time too many and the last time he did this he attacked Ella and one of their sons. Ella hit him over the head with a coca cola bottle and killed him. Self defense but the local cops charged her with murder. Dad defended her and got her released but our family and businesses were threatened several times during the trial and we lost a few customers.

My first degree is from a historically black college. During the three years I was there my dorm room was vandalized and I was threatened several times. So I've experienced racism in a close and visceral manner...watching our society has me convinced we have made progress but still have far to go.

Ok, off the soapbox...

The sign that racism is in the rear view mirror is that fact that people don’t even know what it means anymore, I mean people call people they disagree with over anything a “racist” heck didn’t someone call some breakfast cereal “racist”? The only place the above occurs is in a group that has never seen REAL racism, and sexism is obviously dead as more women are getting degrees and are paid more on average than men in many fields.

The VERY few real racist are more like random angry nut jobs, infact you’re more likely to run into someone with a pet tiger than a kkk member.

That said, lots of racism in places like the RSA, go ask the white farmers.

Plenty of sexism and homophobia in places like the Middle East

And plenty of all sorts of other bad stuff in china


When it comes to people crying racism or sexism or whatever in the US or Canada, I just laugh.
 
Last edited:
Who cares?

Sorry but real racism, sexism, etc is all but dead in this country.

If they want to do some women’s rights stuff go to the Middle East and go have some protests.

Closest thing we have to a class system is the government ruling class vs everyone else, but that’s just what voting for big government gets ya.
So a guy says he was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, and you say "who cares".

Please tell me that didn't come out like you intended and that you are really not that big of a dick. (or should I say "little" of a dick)?
 
So a guy says he was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, and you say "who cares".

Please tell me that didn't come out like you intended and that you are really not that big of a dick. (or should I say "little" of a dick)?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

No

I was talking about “racism” in the US, not his dx
 
Ok. I will believe you. I just wanted to clear that up because it sounded horrible.

I like Jon, seems like a cool dude, no bad vibes.

Also if you look at my past posts, if I have a issue with someone I’ll call them out by name
 
I like Jon, seems like a cool dude, no bad vibes.

Also if you look at my past posts, if I have a issue with someone I’ll call them out by name
Yeah. I've noticed.
 
.... you are really not that big of a dick. (or should I say "little" of a dick)?

We shouldn't be talking about male genitalia in a thread about women...
 
Flew with a lot women in the military. No different treatment than men. Get out of the 1950s mentality. Women have just as many opportunities in aviation today as men...some cases even more.
 
Dad taught me how to shoot, throw a football, and change a tire, probably because I was an only child and he had to make do with a girl, not a boy. I wasn't much interested in what mom was doing, so I never learned how to cook very well. Dad also taught me that I should do what I want, and not worry about what other people thought. That idea backfired on him when I became a teen, but to his credit, I have always been pretty independent. I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots. If they don't want to do so, maybe it's because they are smart. ;)

The skill to be able to forge your own path in this way is commendable and respectable. Here's the problem, though: it's a taught skill. You noted it right in the first line. Your dad was doing more than teaching you those direct skills, but also the indirect one of being your own person. This is rare and is often only learned later in life, if at all. We are social creatures that will generally abide the order around us, whether to our advantage or disadvantage, fair or unfair. Most of us muddle through life, still adding value to our society, even without it.

Most jobs do not require this skill. Jobs that do must teach it, as most will come to the job without it. Pilots are taught CRM, a skill related to this. It's taught because it's not natural for everyone. You do not need that skill to start on a pilot career, as most do not have it on entering and still make fine pilots. Just because you had the necessary skill to allow yourself to enter the world of aviation does not mean that lacking it is a good reason to deny someone that.
 
http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F191011073831-girls-in-aviation-delta-191006.jpg
 
Who cares?

Sorry but real racism, sexism, etc is all but dead in this country.

If they want to do some women’s rights stuff go to the Middle East and go have some protests.

Closest thing we have to a class system is the government ruling class vs everyone else, but that’s just what voting for big government gets ya.
When was the last time you were in the Deep South, not in a major city?
 
I'm not sure if this was directed at me, or at all women generally. But in either case, the answer is no.

<deep breath>

If there are any young women or student pilots out there who are still reading this thread despite all of its dreadfulness and hostility, or lurking on this board wondering what kind of community the pilot community is and whether or not to join it: It is okay to stop reading here, and it is okay to not join an online fray. You deserve better. You are not alone. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat; my handle is "kath".

<exhale>

Read the thread again, Kath. There is no hostility, at all, towards women in this thread. Everyone, from the most supportive of the flight in the original post, to the most opposed, and from the most kind and diplomatic to the most crass and borderline rude, has expressed support for women in aviation. The "dreadfulness and hostility" is aimed at the dreadful practice of giving someone an opportunity based upon their gender. That, by definition, is discrimination no matter how you slice it. I find discrimination dreadful and while I don't consider myself a hostile person, I tend to at least point out discrimination when I see it. As others have already said, past discrimination is no reason or excuse for present discrimination. You are flying. No one stopped you. We are GLAD you are flying. Please keep it up, and spread the word as you wish. The "STFU" post from another poster was one of the crass and rude ones, obviously, and not the best way of disagreeing with someone's opinion, but it wasn't aimed at keeping women out of aviation or denying opportunities to women... it was said to disagree with the premise that women do NOT have the same opportunities men do. They most certainly do, and in fact, more often than not, are given PREFERENTIAL treatment in today's social-justice-focused world.

Aviation is wonderful. Come one, come all interested parties, regardless of biology, faith, or ethnicity. If there are any other women reading, please DO join in the thread or "fray." We've already heard from another woman on the board (and a moderator, I believe) who wrote "I didn't have that much trouble negotiating my place in a world full of men. Sure, you get the occasional odd comment, but I found that my co-workers, were, as a whole supportive. I don't believe in quotas, and I am not concerned about percentages, as long as people have the same opportunities, which they seem to do now. I'm not sure that there are many women in 2019 who are unaware that they can become pilots."
 
The skill to be able to forge your own path in this way is commendable and respectable. Here's the problem, though: it's a taught skill. You noted it right in the first line. Your dad was doing more than teaching you those direct skills, but also the indirect one of being your own person. This is rare and is often only learned later in life, if at all. We are social creatures that will generally abide the order around us, whether to our advantage or disadvantage, fair or unfair. Most of us muddle through life, still adding value to our society, even without it.
But "being your own person" is not something only women should learn. If more people in general would learn that, maybe we would be less inclined to groupthink and become more able to view others as individuals and not as members of the stereotypical "other".
 
But "being your own person" is not something only women should learn. If more people in general would learn that, maybe we would be less inclined to groupthink and become more able to view others as individuals and not as members of the stereotypical "other".

Shhh dont let china hear you say that lol
 
I'm not sure if this was directed at me, or at all women generally. But in either case, the answer is no.

<deep breath>

If there are any young women or student pilots out there who are still reading this thread despite all of its dreadfulness and hostility, or lurking on this board wondering what kind of community the pilot community is and whether or not to join it: It is okay to stop reading here, and it is okay to not join an online fray. You deserve better. You are not alone. Feel free to PM me anytime if you want to chat; my handle is "kath".

<exhale>
No, not directed at you in particular, or woman in general - but at the "victim" mindset, and my perception that a woman can, indeed, succeed in aviation today, in any capacity. That a young or youngish female can get the ratings, get the experience, and advance. Regarding the event, it seems mildly sexist, somewhat exclusive, but mostly "no harm", and of good intent. But I don't see a particularly higher barrier to entry in professional aviation that the young woman would have to overcome - as I said, there will be sexist jerks. And there will also be opportunities for woman that spring from "correcting" discrimination that will be unfair to some young male applicants. Never gonna see perfect justice. So, by STFU, I meant evaluate the landscape, figure out what you have to do to achieve your goal, and do those things - without the drama.
 
But "being your own person" is not something only women should learn. If more people in general would learn that, maybe we would be less inclined to groupthink and become more able to view others as individuals and not as members of the stereotypical "other".

No disagreement on that. Men are equally prone to this. It's not a gendered thing. All that means is exactly what's happening: areas where there are serious gender skews need outreach to pull in those who haven't learned that skill yet. There's no point in having an outreach to the male in flying, since no male would ever look around his fellow pilots and feel like he doesn't belong due to gender. Having or not having that skill would make no difference to their ability to move forward. It does make a difference to a woman, despite it not having any impact on her ability to fly. Should there be outreach for similarly skewed professions the other way? Nursing is skewed that way about the same (92% female). And yeah, there should be outreach to men over nursing.

I don't believe the goal should be 50/50. It's not reasonable to think there would be no gender-based traits that would affect career and hobby choices. The goal is equal opportunity. That, at least, seems to be something that is consistent in every post: no one, to a person, has yet claimed in this thread that women make poor pilots or should be unwelcome. The only question seems to be one of what constitutes "equal opportunity"? Is this flight an unequal opportunity, since boys weren't invited to join? Or was it an equalizing opportunity, because it helps decouple opportunity from things that impede it?

I was tempted to leave it there: let the reader decide! But, I decided that was cowardly. I'll provide my opinion. It's an equalizing opportunity. If you see the opportunity as being the flight itself, then, yeah, that's hardly an equal opportunity; boys are 100% excluded. But the goal isn't the flight. It's the flying. We're tipping the scales on a single flight so that the opportunity to fly is equalized a little.

EDIT: While researching the women-in-industry number, I saw the expected stuff: nurses, teachers, counselors, social workers. But also taxes. Stuff dealing with taxes is approaching three quarters women. That's not a field stereotypically thought of as gendered in any way. I think that one would be interesting to study.
 
Last edited:
EDIT: While researching the women-in-industry number, I saw the expected stuff: nurses, teachers, counselors, social workers. But also taxes. Stuff dealing with taxes is approaching three quarters women. That's not a field stereotypically thought of as gendered in any way. I think that one would be interesting to study.
....a good portion of government leadership, outside DoD, is run by militant females....who can't decide what to eat for lunch. o_O
 
....a good portion of government leadership, outside DoD, is run by militant females....who can't decide what to eat for lunch. o_O

You misunderstood. None of the categories I found that were female majority were in positions of government leadership. Zero. By taxes I meant those in the field of dealing with taxes, not writing the tax law. We're talking about tax preparers, CPAs, auditors, collectors, advisors, etc.
 
You misunderstood. None of the categories I found that were female majority were in positions of government leadership. Zero. By taxes I meant those in the field of dealing with taxes, not writing the tax law. We're talking about tax preparers, CPAs, auditors, collectors, advisors, etc.
no...I work in gummint. o_O
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top