All women Deltra crew flies 120 girls to NASA HQ

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At least cut off the tracking token when pasting the link, sheesh.

Also yay for sexism. We want you to become an aviator not because you're any good at aviating, or because you might like it, but because you have the officially approved set of body parts.
 
zaitcev said:
At least cut off the tracking token when pasting the link, sheesh.
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Yeah, good advice.


What does it mean? What is a a tracking token and how do you cut it off?
 
...There are no female flight navigators, according to the data...
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OMG we gotta do something about this right now.!!!

Wait, how many male navigators are employed by any airline.??
 
I'll let others comment on exactly what they do. However, I can answer in general that it's part of a click-tracking methodology that assigns a unique ID to a URL, and as you click the link, these IDs are kept to find out who is clicking on these links, and who is not.

Just more metadata for companies to mine.

Remember, when you're on Fakebook, or any of these other social media platforms, you're not the customer. You're the commodity.
 
I must admit, I'm shocked that POA allows posting of such misandrous articles. I thought this forum didn't allow such discrimination.
 
zaitcev said:
Also yay for sexism. We want you to become an aviator not because you're any good at aviating, or because you might like it, but because you have the officially approved set of body parts.
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You must have forgotten the smiley face or the </sarcasm> tag or something, right?
Because otherwise I would think you're being serious. Which would mean you're denigrating an awesome attempt to get a new generation of underrepresented young people into aviation.

--one of the seven percent, who put up with enough already
 
kath said:
You must have forgotten the smiley face or the </sarcasm> tag or something, right?
Because otherwise I would think you're being serious. Which would mean you're denigrating an awesome attempt to get a new generation of underrepresented young people into aviation.

--one of the seven percent, who put up with enough already
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I get what you are saying. But change female to male would it be news worthy?

And there was a line in the article about no female navigators that made the author of the article appear to not know anything about aviation at all but had to throw that line in to make it sound as if females are being excluded specifically from becoming a navigator in an airplane....:yikes:
 
kath said:
You must have forgotten the smiley face or the </sarcasm> tag or something, right?
Because otherwise I would think you're being serious. Which would mean you're denigrating an awesome attempt to get a new generation of underrepresented young people into aviation.

--one of the seven percent, who put up with enough already
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Kath, do you really not see how something like this is denigrating to males? And when you come right down to it, isn't it denigrating to females also, turning them into "poor little dears" who require special treatment?

If we need more young people to enter aviation, then let's recruit them without discriminating based on gender or any of the other identity factors. It makes no difference to the airplane whether the person flying it is male or female.
 
kath said:
--one of the seven percent, who put up with enough already
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What should the percentage of women pilots be to not be "underrepresented"? Should that be enforced across all industries or just pilots?
 
IBTL, but I don't see what the problem is. Guys always seem to get butt-hurt over stuff like this, but who does this hurt? The situation isn't zero-sum - increasing awareness of aviation careers for young women doesn't somehow diminish it for men.
 
Zeldman said:
I get what you are saying. But change female to male would it be news worthy?
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Young men and boys get to see role models of their own gender in aviation all the time. Well, 93% of the time. Actually, more like 96% of the time, if you look at airline pilots (and not GA). So yeah, I (too) long for the day when this will not be newsworthy, and when recruitment into aviation (or any pursuit) can be made in a gender-blind way. But that day is not yet here.

Zeldman said:
And there was a line in the article about no female navigators that made the author of the article appear to not know anything about aviation at all
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Fair point. But that is a separate journalism issue, and extending it to mock the effort and the women involved, does not help.


Half Fast said:
Kath, do you really not see how something like this is denigrating to males? And when you come right down to it, isn't it denigrating to females also, turning them into "poor little dears" who require special treatment?
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No, I don't. And no, I don't think it is. I've spent my entire adult life in male-dominated fields facing these issues, and have spent a lot of time promoting STEM for both girls and boys, doing outreach, partly just to be seen, because there are so few of us. It's my opportunity to "be" a culture that I find lacking elsewhere, even if it's just for one afternoon. I don't see it as an "us versus them" kind of issue. Never have. I look at that picture of 120 smiles and hands in the air (kids *and* crew) and see only joy.

For the sake of perspective, let me share a brief story from just last week. I met a pilot buddy at a new-to-me airport. He led me into a hangar to meet some friends.
Guy #1 introduces me to Guy #2.
Guy #2 makes a derisive noise and says "Women can't be pilots!"
Guy #1 says, "Ignore him, he's just joking, fooling with ya."
Five minutes later, Guy #2 makes the same joke again... "Women belong in the home" or some such. Guy #1 once again rolls his eyes and apologizes for him.
I wanted to tell Guy #2 to eff off. But I'm too polite to swear at someone I've just met. No one else in the hangar did either.
Guy #2 never told me himself that he was joking or kidding. He probably was, and thought it was just harmless fun. But for all I know, Guy #2 really does feel this way about women. Either way, he has learned that he can get away with saying it. At least, he can in a hangar.
I have a lot of stories like this.
 
In all seriousness I think the only reason this jumps out is because, for a lot of us, the idea that women are working in pretty much any field hadn't ought to be a surprise to anyone who has lived in the western world anytime in the past 40 or 50 years.

There's probably also quite a bit of grass is greener syndrome going on too. I tend to think women probably grossly overestimate just how much actual encouragement/help men get working towards our careers. I also think men probably underestimate how much subtle resistance women deal with and probably over-estimate how much help women are getting just for being female. Such is life and human nature.
 
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kayoh190 said:
IBTL, but I don't see what the problem is. Guys always seem to get butt-hurt over stuff like this, but who does this hurt? The situation isn't zero-sum - increasing awareness of aviation careers for young women doesn't somehow diminish it for men.
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I don't see the problem either. In what way does this impact men? It wouldn't bother me if an all black crew flew a load of black children there.

The only thing I can think of is that it somehow makes some people feel threatened, or maybe cheated or something. "It's not Faaaaaair"! But I just don't see it.

On the other hand, I would not have a problem if an all white male crew flew a bunch of white boys there either. But that would be called racist, which I would also disagree with. But you don't fix problems by multiplying them.
 
kath said:
For the sake of perspective, let me share a brief story from just last week. I met a pilot buddy at a new-to-me airport. He led me into a hangar to meet some friends.
Guy #1 introduces me to Guy #2.
Guy #2 makes a derisive noise and says "Women can't be pilots!"
Guy #1 says, "Ignore him, he's just joking, fooling with ya."
Five minutes later, Guy #2 makes the same joke again... "Women belong in the home" or some such. Guy #1 once again rolls his eyes and apologizes for him.
I wanted to tell Guy #2 to eff off. But I'm too polite to swear at someone I've just met. No one else in the hangar did either.
Guy #2 never told me himself that he was joking or kidding. He probably was, and thought it was just harmless fun. But for all I know, Guy #2 really does feel this way about women. Either way, he has learned that he can get away with saying it. At least, he can in a hangar.
I have a lot of stories like this.
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I have seen this happen, and two young ladies with me decided NOT to do the young eagles flight.
Both were teenagers, and super smart friends of my daughter. The answer why, they said why go somewhere you are not wanted when it takes a lot of time/effort/money and there are other hobbies to pursue?

Tim
 
JOhnH said:
It wouldn't bother me if an all black crew flew a load of black children there.
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How about an all white crew with only white male passengers? Doesn't quite have the same social acceptance. It's not that people are 'butt hurt', it's just some people are sick of identity politics and trying to sum everything to race and/or gender. It's fantastic Delta sponsored flying 120 kids to NASA in order to promote aviation, making it about gender is/was not needed.
 
OkieAviator said:
How about an all white crew with only white male passengers? Doesn't quite have the same social acceptance. It's not that people are 'butt hurt', it's just some people are sick of identity politics and trying to sum everything to race and/or gender. It's fantastic Delta sponsored flying 120 kids to NASA in order to promote aviation, making it about gender is/was not needed.
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I addressed that. You stopped reading too soon, and my post was actually quite short.
 
kath said:
Young men and boys get to see role models of their own gender in aviation all the time. Well, 93% of the time. Actually, more like 96% of the time, if you look at airline pilots (and not GA). So yeah, I (too) long for the day when this will not be newsworthy, and when recruitment into aviation (or any pursuit) can be made in a gender-blind way. But that day is not yet here.



Fair point. But that is a separate journalism issue, and extending it to mock the effort and the women involved, does not help.




No, I don't. And no, I don't think it is. I've spent my entire adult life in male-dominated fields facing these issues, and have spent a lot of time promoting STEM for both girls and boys, doing outreach, partly just to be seen, because there are so few of us. It's my opportunity to "be" a culture that I find lacking elsewhere, even if it's just for one afternoon. I don't see it as an "us versus them" kind of issue. Never have. I look at that picture of 120 smiles and hands in the air (kids *and* crew) and see only joy.

For the sake of perspective, let me share a brief story from just last week. I met a pilot buddy at a new-to-me airport. He led me into a hangar to meet some friends.
Guy #1 introduces me to Guy #2.
Guy #2 makes a derisive noise and says "Women can't be pilots!"
Guy #1 says, "Ignore him, he's just joking, fooling with ya."
Five minutes later, Guy #2 makes the same joke again... "Women belong in the home" or some such. Guy #1 once again rolls his eyes and apologizes for him.
I wanted to tell Guy #2 to eff off. But I'm too polite to swear at someone I've just met. No one else in the hangar did either.
Guy #2 never told me himself that he was joking or kidding. He probably was, and thought it was just harmless fun. But for all I know, Guy #2 really does feel this way about women. Either way, he has learned that he can get away with saying it. At least, he can in a hangar.
I have a lot of stories like this.
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Okay, you as an adult were insulted by some jerk. On behalf of all us jerks I apologize.

As a parent, on several occasions I had to explain to my little boy that he couldn’t participate in an activity because it was just for girls. He thought it unfair and dammit, so did I.

I agree with @OkieAviator that it was really cool for Delta to sponsor this activity, but discriminating on the basis of gender was not.
 
JOhnH said:
I addressed that. You stopped reading too soon, and my post was actually quite short.
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Sorry, I did indeed read it. Was trying to reinforce your comment, but with a more direct contrast between the two statements. I failed...

The gist is discrimination is discrimination, no one should try to defend it based on 'good intent'.
 
OkieAviator said:
Sorry, I did indeed read it. Was trying to reinforce your comment, but with a more direct contrast between the two statements. I failed...

The gist is discrimination is discrimination, no one should try to defend it based on 'good intent'.
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BTW, I did agree with your comment:
it's just some people are sick of identity politics and trying to sum everything to race and/or gender.
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I very much agree with that.
 
I'd very much like to see an all woman team servicing my Bo.....and perform my maintenance and annual inspection next year....;)
 
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There were at least 7 female pilots at 6Y9 this year. Amazingly, both because of and despite this board :confused:
 
My university published an article recently celebrating that 27% of places had gone to non-white students. Only 20% of people in that age group in the country are non-white. So in effect they said "hurrah, white people are now under-represented". If the situation had been reversed, the article would have been bemoaning the under-representation of non-white students, of course.

If the imbalance is in one direction these days, it's a problem. If it's in the other direction, it's celebrated.

People are falling over themselves to try and get women into "nice" male-dominated fields, to the extent that a woman has a huge advantage over any man for a job in these areas. I don't see any effort going the other way, to try and get more men into female dominated fields; and also a distinct lack of effort to get women into male-dominated fields that are not considered "nice" such as garbage men, mechanics, and other tough jobs. It might be time to stop pretending that everybody is identical, and just accept that certain jobs are more attractive to certain genders. There are more male pilots because far more men than women think airplanes are cool, not because of some huge conspiracy.

Human nature is what it is, and people will always take advantage of a situation that benefits them. I think we can stop pretending at this stage that it's about trying to right an injustice, and just accept that it's people taking advantage of discrimination that works in their favour. It's 2019, not 1970.
 
Half Fast said:
I agree with @OkieAviator that it was really cool for Delta to sponsor this activity, but discriminating on the basis of gender was not.
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It's important to recognize both the history and the current reality of gender discrimination. It's alive and well, right now, today, and I don't get the sense that you believe that. This is a push back against that, and as such it's only a good thing. You can see it as gender discrimination against men in a technical sense where no one was actually harmed, but with a broader perspective, that just makes no sense. When women make a dollar for every dollar their male counterpart makes and gender discrimination truly is a thing of the past, then you have a good case. We're still a long way from that.
 
kath said:
You must have forgotten the smiley face or the </sarcasm> tag or something, right?
Because otherwise I would think you're being serious. Which would mean you're denigrating an awesome attempt to get a new generation of underrepresented young people into aviation.

--one of the seven percent, who put up with enough already
Click to expand...
Except that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping anyone of any race, gender, or creed from pursuing anything that they are interested in in today's society... BY LAW. The idea that every occupation, pursuit, and interest should be populated with an exact representation of the general populace in terms of makeup is ludicrous. Is it equally deplorable that males are underrepresented in elementary general music classrooms? WHO CARES. Let people do what they want to do... all people. Kath, I'm glad you're flying, and I'm glad you like to fly. It's awesome. It's not in any way more awesome because you happen to be female.
 
kayoh190 said:
IBTL, but I don't see what the problem is. Guys always seem to get butt-hurt over stuff like this, but who does this hurt? The situation isn't zero-sum - increasing awareness of aviation careers for young women doesn't somehow diminish it for men.
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Sooo... you're saying women aren't aware of aviation careers? Don't they go to the same schools and colleges men do? I'm confused...? I didn't realize women were prevented from learning about the same careers men are. I DO realize, as the father of three sons, that women are frequently given preferential treatment and lauded for achievements that would be unremarkable if they were male... which of course does a tremendous disservice to women.
 
Emily Howell Warner is an American airline pilot and the first woman captain of a scheduled US airline. In 1973, Warner was the first woman pilot to be hired by a scheduled US airline since Helen Richey was hired as a co-pilot in 1934. In 1976 Warner was the first woman to become a US airline captain. Wikipedia
 
Katamarino said:
I don't see any effort going the other way, to try and get more men into female dominated fields
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I can think of several examples, the most significant being: parenting and childrearing. I didn't know any stay-at-home dads when I was a kid, and now I know quite a few. And I've seen a distinct push to get active fatherhood into a culture where it wasn't necessarily before, and it could only happen together with a recognition of the difficulty and importance of that job. These things *are* cultural and they *can* change.

Remember that most "female dominated" fields historically have held less prestige and paid much less. Or paid nothing. This is part of the cultural landscape that makes all of this more complicated of an issue than you want to believe it is.

MuseChaser said:
Except that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping anyone of any race, gender, or creed from pursuing anything that they are interested in in today's society... BY LAW.
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I would love to live in your world. Unfortunately, the real one is still rife with barriers. Some are overt, but others are subtle but pernicious and repeated and not preventable using laws. Things have gotten a lot better since my parents' generation, and I'm an optimist that they will get better still. But there are no easy answers.
 
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