All examinees of DPE Edward L. Lane to be required to re-test

frfly172 said:
Just a thought would it be possible to get a checkout in an lsa for an lsa rating to negate the test requirement?
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No. You can fly under LSA rules with any level of certificate (I know two ATP's who current fly under sport rules due to a lack of medical), but if you don't have a valid pilot certificate, you can't fly under any rules.
 
BillTIZ said:
Please define, if you already hold a Private or higher, then you are qualifed for LSA. All that is required is the insurance / rental checkout, not another FAA check ride.

You do not need a Sport Pilot certificate to fly light sport aircraft if you already hold a Private Plot rating or higher.
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True but in this case if you don't do the 709 re-check ride they will take your private cert. and you won't be able to fly LSA.... I suppose you could take the LSA check ride but if you have a medical and hours why would you.

Maybe John should try for the LSA ride
 
GCA319 said:
No. You can fly under LSA rules with any level of certificate (I know two ATP's who current fly under sport rules due to a lack of medical), but if you don't have a valid pilot certificate, you can't fly under any rules.
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...except Part 103.
 
frfly172 said:
Just a thought would it be possible to get a checkout in an lsa for an lsa rating to negate the test requirement?
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An LSA checkout for a PPL holder would be comparable to an airplane checkout from an instructor. I believe the FAA is willing to forgo a recheck of Mr. Lane's examinees if they've since had a checkride for an additional rating, not a simple aircraft checkout which might be as little as a couple rides around the patch or several hours doing stall and falls and every type landing in the book. Checkouts aren't given by pilot examiners and there's no standard definition of what one consists of so the FAA wouldn't likely think they prove someone is competent in all areas required of a certificate holder.
 
Witmo said:
An LSA checkout for a PPL holder would be comparable to an airplane checkout from an instructor. I believe the FAA is willing to forgo a recheck of Mr. Lane's examinees if they've since had a checkride for an additional rating, not a simple aircraft checkout which might be as little as a couple rides around the patch or several hours doing stall and falls and every type landing in the book. Checkouts aren't given by pilot examiners and there's no standard definition of what one consists of so the FAA wouldn't likely think they prove someone is competent in all areas required of a certificate holder.
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Checkouts are not an FAA requirement/activity period. They're an insurance requirement.
 
GCA319 said:
True, although ultralights with 2 stroke engine arent exactly my cup of tea.
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So you're ok with the Back Yard Flyer then, right?
And, of course, it comes with the quiet, smooth-running, gas-sipping four-stroke, Valley Engineering Big Twin engine.
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You can also get a Belite with 1/2 VW, but the price of that thing is just insane: $40k RTF or so. Also, taildragger-only to meet 103 limits.

BTW, when I joined the Albuquerque Ultralight Association, a member in long standing, Bill S., tried to persuade me in the virtues of modern 2-stroke engines that feature much more reliable ignition and use very low oil:gas ratios. He flies one of those in his RANS S-12 (admittedly finished under EX-AB).
 
John Baker said:
So this about sums up the final screwing GA has delivered to me, the "coup de grâce" as it were.

Try to guess who my DPE was on 9-18-2010?????? Anyone????
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Oh man. :( Sorry to hear that.

I sure hope you don't just quit. If you've been flying on a regular basis (and I would guess you have been, being an owner) I'm sure you could pass a checkride.
 
John Baker said:
Thanks, so am I...or...I could just go over to Sheble and in one day get a seaplane rating. However, I'm tired of beating my head against the bureaucratic brick wall. It has been nothing but one hurdle after another for eight years.

My airplane sold today, I have the money, it's on it's way to the east with its new owners.

I'll be seventy in December, I'm tired of battling the bureaucrats.
I know I am a damn good pilot, I accomplished what I set out to do. I hung in there when most would have given up in disgust.

I have 425 hours, I am a pilot, but I'm tired of trying to be a bureaucrat. I'm done with it.

As of right now, I am still current and legal. My medical is due in November, I intend to let it go. This is my gift to myself.

Perhaps I'll fly for the rebels someday. :D

-John
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John, I'd fly with you any day. If I'm ever out your way I'll look you up. Congrats on the sale and best wishes!
 
I am a CFI in Las Vegas. For years Eddie Lane has been the face of the Las Vegas FSDO with regards to safety counselor training. To suddenly decide that 700 people need to retake their exam is absurd. I have seen some of you state that if you fly regularly you should be able to pass the check ride. Let me take an airline captain or first officer that has been flying for 20 years and give him 30 days, no less than that because first he has to receive the mail, make contact, go through the "you want me to do what" and then prep for a checkride. Oh yeah and that ATP checkride will require you to do steep turns in a twin engine airplane that you have not flown in years. No one can pass in that situation. There should be a class action suit here. This presumes that the people that took the check ride were not trained properly by his CFI. This calls all of us and the entire system into question. Someone asked why it went on so long. It can't be because they were building a case, because they haven't even taken it to the proven guilty stage and they are requiring the retests. This is way too fishy.
 
One thing I'd like to point out. The letter said retest, not checkride. Does anyone really know what that means? It's conceivable that the FAA didn't like the way Mr. Lane did the oral and that will be the retest.
 
I'm sitting here thinking it'd be nice to see one of the pilot news/advocacy groups saying something.

AOPA has a conflict of interest with their legal services product.

EAA isn't quite that "big tent" ... yet.

No one yet knows what triggered it.

No one really knows how many pilots it hit, nor is collecting hard data, or even asking.

(If they do, it's really bad and people are not publishing because it is very bad/very shocking.)

The FAA seems to have set the clock far shorter than the Abiation news cycle. Even emergency ADs typically have longer compliance times than this thing.

Only the Internet has picked up on it even happening, and by the time he story really is out, it'll all be over but the crying.

Would be interesting to know if the Pilot's Bill of Rights applies to knowing what the FAA knows about the "case" against you that's so strong you can have your ticket pulled.

Just because their beef is with their own employee, and that's what a DPE is, in my mind... they answer to FAA bosses, but are independent contractors, but FAA is responsible for evaluating and deeming them worthy of the title... the individual "cases" are against every Certificate holder tested by this guy, we assume... so shouldn't they have to publish the evidence held against these Certificate holders now, under the new law?

Problem is, if you felt like fighting and making that point, you'll be doing it from the ground. And they know it. Still way too much power there. They also know that, and I suspect it's the main reason for the 30 day deadline.

Do it quick, no one will have time to complain, ask hard questions, etc.

I hope it's not something bureaucratic, like a form didn't have an i dotted or a t crossed on the DPEs paperwork. If its based on something objective, it'd be nice to know.

The thread has morphed into critics piling on the pilots who may or may not be ready for a checkride as they should be. But that skips over the question of whether the FAA's action was reasonable in the first place. I think we've all been acclimatized to saying "it doesn't matter" when it really does.

- How many people? 10, 100, 1000?
- Why the 30 day deadline? What's the rush?
- How'd you lose control of your Designee/Employee for so long?
- What did he do?
- Why isn't anyone with enough clout to be asking, doing so?

Inquiring minds want to know. Or maybe we don't. Depends on how bad or stupid it is. ;)
 
Hi Everyone
Just a few words on this, we are 2 Australians who decided to save a bit of money and come to the United States and learn to fly .
We saved for a couple of years so that we could devote 2 and a half months of full time study six days a week to obtaining our PPC in San Diego CA.
So we arranged someone to mind the house and the dogs whilst we were doing our lifelong dream of gaining our pilots certificate (I now know why it’s a certificate they can't take a licence off you so easily)
Before we could even think about getting in a plane we spent an incredible amount of time gaining security clearances (quite rightly so) through 3 different government depts. then bought 2 round trip tickets to the US .
After hiring a car at LAX we headed down to Santa Monica for several days to get over the jetlag then we headed off to San Diego to begin our pilot training.
We arranged an apartment in El Cajon CA for the duration of our stay,
We went out and bought a new Bed and just about everything you need for an apartment for a 2 month stay.
We began as everyone begins with a flight with our instructor and as I was in the pilot seat our instructor gave me the controls for the first time just off Delmar Race Track and I knew I was in love with flying.
The next 2 months went by like a blur new things to learn.
We would fly when we had good weather and do ground when we didn’t
We hit the books every night and did pop quizzes about ten times a day.

To cut this story short we passed all our exams along the way and passed our finals.

Now we are being asked to return to the US to retest something that will require at least a 1 week period of refresher course to re-pass the exam.

Now finally we estimate that all the things we need to do would total out at about $10000 for the 2 of us and this is on top of the $30000+
We have already spent

Would it be unreasonable to ask the FAA to send an examiner down here to Australia to do the re test?

In case you’re wondering, why don’t we just get our PPL in Australia?

Well CASA (Oz version of FAA) doesn’t allow any credit toward flying hours etc unless you have a current licence/certificate in the country that you did the flying hours in.
If our US PPS’s are suspended we start from scratch, zero hours.

BTW Hiring a Cessna 172+ instructor in Australia runs $320 an hour.

Clearly not a good situation.
 
Well that really sucks. I'm assuming you both got a letter from the FAA about doing a retest? You should check, but I think either the letter or the FAA order that mandates the tests states they won't be doing retests outside the US. If you've got no other options, it probably doesn't hurt to call the Las Vegas FSDO and ask. I'm sure you're not the only one outside the US in this situation. Even if they won't do tests outside the US, they may have some other solution available.

If you have to retest in the US, I don't think you'd have to go the the Las Vegas office, if there is another flight standards office that is somehow more convenient.

Another possible option: If there are any FAA DPEs located internationally (i don't know if there are or what the rules are for them, but many DPEs travel frequently), it may be an option to arrange an exam with one of them for some other rating and bypass the requirement for a retest with an FAA inspector (which as noted above likely requires coming back to the US). Not an ideal situation, but maybe better than travelling to the US.

Actually, anyone know if it's possible for someone to surrender their certificate and then retake the checkride for that same rating with an examiner? That would avoid the need for a 709 ride with an inspector.
 
John,

When I first read the letter I really did not catch the intent of the rabid dog remark, and could not figure out what was threatening. On second read I agree it is subtle but it is there. I am trying to figure out another reason for the remark, and for the life of me I cannot. In fact, on the first reading the letter is pretty innocuous, but the whole letter if read in a different light is fairly malignant.

I hope you change your mind and fly as it seemed at least to me you love it and you certainly are an ambassador for what is right about GA and GA pilots.

Doug
 
I tried to avoid this thread as it rambles in many directions. The OP on Sept 30th stated that he hadn't received a letter yet. Looking from there forward I didn't see anything to confirm that he did (unless I missed it).

I took the PPL in 2007 and practice/fly often. For the flight portion of the test, I'd have no problem whatsoever. For knowledge questions, maybe a couple hours or review. I think the majority of pilots retesting will be about the same.
 
Steve Foley said:
Yeah, they get shot.

I don't know if it was intended as a veiled threat or not, but I would consider letting law enforcement make that call.
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Yeah, especially if the sender is of FAA employment, I'd be getting law enforcement involved ASAP.
 
John Baker said:
Below is the PM I received from a fellow who claims he is not an FAA employee. Most all of his posts on this forum contradict that. It is also loaded with veiled threats. Due to the threatening nature of this, I will not show his POA identifier, however, it has been forwarded to POA staff.

This whole thing, including this PM, reeks of something other than what is being made public.

I did receive a notice in my mailbox to pick up a registered letter. I do not pick up registered letters at the post office, those things are never good news..

I emboldened the line in the p m that is the tip off it came from the FAA. How many on this board would phrase it that way, especially if they had never seen the letter?

-John

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Baker,

Respectfully Sir,

Before you add a stroke to your long list of ailments, please loosen the tin foil a few turns. I am worried about you, really.

Unless I missed it, you haven't even received a letter requesting a 49 USC § 44709 re-examination letter.

Why the frothing at the mouth? You know what happens to rabid dogs, right?

My grandfather always said, “Nothing can ever be as bad as you can imagine it to be”.

Wise man, but you, letting your mind run amok like you have been and you may be the first to prove him wrong.

I don’t know you, and you don’t know me from Adam, but I respectfully offer this piece of advice and it is worth exactly what I charged you for it.

If you do indeed get a letter, compromise and take a voluntary downgrade to a Private Pilot certificate with the restriction:

Valid for Student Pilot Purposes Only, Passenger Carrying Prohibited.

You claim to be former Airborne, correct?

Well Mr. Baker, like baseball, there is no crying in aviation. Man up and take the ride, downgrade or surrender your certificate. It makes no difference to the FAA, trust me.

I have no first hand knowledge of what brought this about for the DPE and those this may impact. I don’t know you and you don’t know me, but give me the benefit of the doubt on this, I do know the system.

From what you have written in this string, and the defeatist, anti authority mentality you have displayed, I predict you have a very poor chance of passing this check, should it ever actually come to fruition. In fact, you have already failed.

I thought long and hard about writing this. There are so many analogies, You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Kids - buy them books and send them to school, and what do they do? Sell them and go fishing. You get the idea.

Please step back away from the abyss and take a deep breath. I am truly worried for your health and future as a pilot.


Fly Safe

Sincerely.
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This was totally uncalled for. What an **shole.
 
Personally I do not see a threat in that message...it's just some *******. Move on.
 
jesse said:
Personally I do not see a threat in that message...it's just some *******. Move on.
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In what context? If it came from an FAA employee, lawyers could/should be having a field day with it.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
In what context? If it came from an FAA employee, lawyers could/should be having a field day with it.
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There is absolutely nothing that suggests it came from an FAA employee so why worry about what some random idiot on the internet sends you? Hit delete, move on with life.

The internet is full of random idiots sending less than friendly messages. I've found some people more conditioned and used to this whereas others read way too much into it. It means nothing, screw him, delete.
 
John Baker said:
These are, at least to me, what I consider to be veiled and possibly direct threats.

-John



Mr. Baker,

Respectfully Sir,

Before you add a stroke to your long list of ailments, please loosen the tin foil a few turns. I am worried about you, really. He may be genuinely concerned that you are taking this the wrong way.

Unless I missed it, you haven't even received a letter requesting a 49 USC § 44709 re-examination letter.

Why the frothing at the mouth? You know what happens to rabid dogs, right? He may be saying that rabid dogs start biting others and infecting other animals.

My grandfather always said, “Nothing can ever be as bad as you can imagine it to be”.

Wise man, but you, letting your mind run amok like you have been and be you may the first to prove him wrong. He does not know what the worst you can imagine is. Maybe the worst you can imagine is missing a night's sleep?

I don’t know you, and you don’t know me from Adam, but I respectfully offer this piece of advice and it is worth exactly what I charged you for it.

If you do indeed get a letter, compromise and take a voluntary downgrade to a Private Pilot certificate with the restriction:

Valid for Student Pilot Purposes Only, Passenger Carrying Prohibited.

You claim to be former Airborne, correct?

Well Mr. Baker, like baseball, there is no crying in aviation. Man up and take the ride, downgrade or surrender your certificate. It makes no difference to the FAA, trust me.

I have no first hand knowledge of what brought this about for the DPE and those this may impact. I don’t know you and you don’t know me, but give me the benefit of the doubt on this, I do know the system.

From what you have written in this string, and the defeatist, anti authority mentality you have displayed, I predict you have a very poor chance of passing this check, should it ever actually come to fruition. In fact, you have already failed. He may be pointing out that your defeatist attitude may be your own worst enemy.

I thought long and hard about writing this. There are so many analogies, You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Kids - buy them books and send them to school, and what do they do? Sell them and go fishing. You get the idea.

Please step back away from the abyss and take a deep breath. I am truly worried for your health and future as a pilot. He may be concerned that you are too stressed, and may give yourself heart problems or ulcers.


Fly Safe

Sincerely.
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I really don't think this PM is a threat. Annoying, yes, but welcome to the internet and anonymous posting. My comments in blue could be possibly interpretations of all his comments. None of them are "death threats". That is a little dramatic don't you think?
 
My opinion is that this is not a threat. I see it as the sender thinking John is seriously overreacting to the situation, particularly if he hasn't received a retest letter yet. The rabid dog comment is, to my way of thinking, saying "if you act like you're crazy, people will judge you accordingly".

John, I don't know if you've gotten a letter about this yet. I'm sorry you're bowing out of aviation. I also have to say that there's not much point in continuing the discussion of your situation on this forum.

Best wishes,
 
jesse said:
There is absolutely nothing that suggests it came from an FAA employee so why worry about what some random idiot on the internet sends you? Hit delete, move on with life.

The internet is full of random idiots sending less than friendly messages. I've found some people more conditioned and used to this whereas others read way too much into it. It means nothing, screw him, delete.
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Yup, good to see management of the forum, allows members to push people around in a manner that is could be considered a threat by some. Just goes to confirm some of my feelings.

But I'm out of this thread. I said what I needed to and don't see any reason to contribute more
 
Hey - I have a rabid anti-authority mentality... Where's my PM? I've been cheated!!!! :stirpot::popcorn::rockon::rockon::rollercoaster:
 
danhagan said:
I tried to avoid this thread as it rambles in many directions. The OP on Sept 30th stated that he hadn't received a letter yet. Looking from there forward I didn't see anything to confirm that he did (unless I missed it).
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Dunno where you're getting that.

The OP, Nate, specifically says in the original post:

denverpilot said:
Had a friend say he'd gotten a letter from FAA that he had to re-test for his pilot certificate under this blanket notice by the Las Vegas FSDO...
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Nate is not one of the targets of this FAA action. The friend he mentioned had already gotten a letter as of the OP. So, I'm not sure how you figured what you say above... :dunno:
 
In today's politically correct world much of what is considered wrong or undesirable behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the intentions of the one making the statement, or action, but has everything to do with how the recipient perceives it. Whether or not I or anyone else considers what was sent to John as a PM a threat or not is not really pertinent. How John perceives it is quite pertinent. Certainly, as I said in my original post on the letter I did not perceive it as threatening at all. However, after reading John's and others explanations of it and rereading it in that context I see where he is coming from. Was it from an FAA employee or just some other random idiot or someone who is actually and truly concerned with John, I do not know. What I do know is John is quite upset about the FAA action, whether he received a letter or not I do not know, and this letter has accentuated his emotional distress. I, personally think, that the least that POA could do is contact the sender and see what their answer is. Furthermore, I assume that the person who PM John has been at the very least monitoring these boards, and possibly actively contributing to it, I think we can assume by his failure to recontact John and either apologize or explain his letter in a better light than John sees it, it may be in all reality have the nefarious purpose John sees in it. Remember it's not paranoia if someone is actually out to get you.

Doug
 
douglas393; said:
Remember it's not paranoia if someone is actually out to get you.

Doug
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:lol:

That is quite a, um, paranoid statement!
 
I recall my DPE trying to put me at ease by telling me something like "your CFI has already attested that you have the skills and knowledge to be a pilot. This is a CHECK ride...I'm just here to verify her opinion." Granted, this might not be wholly true, but from this perspective it's troubling that the FAA has *any* pass/fail ratio, and to the extent that they do, that the DPE is the one called to the carpet if it's violated. Wouldn't this incentivize a DPE to fail an otherwise passing pilot just to make sure he/she met The Quota?
 
Pjsmith said:
I recall my DPE trying to put me at ease by telling me something like "your CFI has already attested that you have the skills and knowledge to be a pilot. This is a CHECK ride...I'm just here to verify her opinion." Granted, this might not be wholly true, but from this perspective it's troubling that the FAA has *any* pass/fail ratio, and to the extent that they do, that the DPE is the one called to the carpet if it's violated. Wouldn't this incentivize a DPE to fail an otherwise passing pilot just to make sure he/she met The Quota?
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Indeed, there are DPEs who have a reputation (deserved or not) for doing exactly that. And some who allegedly order applicants to perform tasks not required by the PTS for the rating they're being tested for, and find a way to fail them when they don't perform those tasks correctly.

Seems like the term "pencil-whipping" should mean the exact opposite of what it does.
 
azure said:
Indeed, there are DPEs who have a reputation (deserved or not) for doing exactly that. And some who allegedly order applicants to perform tasks not required by the PTS for the rating they're being tested for, and find a way to fail them when they don't perform those tasks correctly.

Seems like the term "pencil-whipping" should mean the exact opposite of what it does.
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I have heard that before, but what type of tasks could they make you do? My DPE had me do my turn around a point clockwise so I had to look at the right window. Had never done that in training, and I believe it traditionally is done counterclockwise looking out the left window. I do not believe the PTS say which way to do it. In any case I did it well... I passed.

Doug
 
Gubbins said:
I really don't think this PM is a threat. Annoying, yes, but welcome to the internet and anonymous posting. My comments in blue could be possibly interpretations of all his comments. None of them are "death threats". That is a little dramatic don't you think?
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.....
 
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