Airliner Departure Procedure Error - KPSP

[VWGhiaBob]

Two weeks ago, I was #2 departing KPSP 31L on the Cathedral 1 departure procedure at night. This is a fairly complex DP, as it involves a heading climb until you cross a VOR radial, and then at least 2 climbing turns.

I watched the airliner in front of me, and noted he turned way before the radial. In Palm Springs, you need to follow all IFR procedures carefully, as there are 10,000 feet mountains all around you, and the airport is at 500 MSL.

In this case the control tower called out the error. The pilot replied, “Yes, our FMS failed and we would like to request vectors.” The controller seemed a bit taken aback by this claim, but issued vectors nevertheless. I expected to hear, “call this number”, but the episode ended there as far as I know.

I have a some questions about this incident.

1. Is the pilot likely to get cited after the fact? I mean this was an airliner with over 100 people.

2. In the event of a failure, shouldn’t he have reported the FMS failure immediately, rather than silently initiating a turn? I mean...gosh...it was night, and if the FMS failed...it’s Palm Springs and you can’t see those mountains unless there’s a full moon.

3. Don’t modern airliners have back-up nav systems? Even in my lowly Cirrus SR22, when I take off from KPSP IFR, I dial the DP in two ways...VOR (choice #1) and GPS (plan B). If fact I always do this. That way if one method fails, I switch, not unlike switching to a Localizer approach if the ILS glide slope fails.

Any thoughts on this incident?

 

[smv]

Unless separation was compromised, there will not likely be anything more said of it officially. The pilot of that aircraft may do well to watch the American Airlines video "Children of the Magenta Line" where he specifically talks about scenerios just like this...

 

[PaulS]

Pros make mistakes, controllers too. Nothing bad happened, no one hurt or minimum separation busted. In fact the system worked as intended, the controller saw the problem and spoke up. We should be very careful about looking for fellow pilots to be reported.

 

[flyingron]

Unless separation was compromised, there will not likely be anything more said of it officially.

UNTRUE. Reports have to be issued on several events. Loss of separation is just one of them. It's just that it doesn't need to be "phone the tower" with airliners as the controller will kick off the report and it's someone else's job to follow up. And since it's scheduled, they know WHO is flying.

Improper or unexpected operation of the aircraft near terrain is definitely one that requires filing. Aircraft operated on a route other than expected is another.

 

[jordane93]

1. Maybe
2. Aviate, navigate, communicate
3. Most of the SIDs can be backed up with the FMS and it does the turns to the radials using GPS so I guess they didn’t have the VORs tuned up in standby. I usually don’t have them in the backup either.

 

[denverpilot]

“Tell him the FMS failed and ask nicely for a vector.”

After that...

“Okay I should have caught during the briefing that you programmed that wrong. Look at the plate and here’s how that was supposed to go.”

LOL.

 

[smv]

UNTRUE. Reports have to be issued on several events. Loss of separation is just one of them. It's just that it doesn't need to be "phone the tower" with airliners as the controller will kick off the report and it's someone else's job to follow up. And since it's scheduled, they know WHO is flying.

Improper or unexpected operation of the aircraft near terrain is definitely one that requires filing. Aircraft operated on a route other than expected is another.

Thank you for that. My original reply went on to say that if anything, it would be handled 'internally' but of that I was not certain so I removed that part. The event is certainly something that needs to be addressed and perhaps retrained...

 

[RussR]

2. In the event of a failure, shouldn’t he have reported the FMS failure immediately, rather than silently initiating a turn? I mean...gosh...it was night, and if the FMS failed...it’s Palm Springs and you can’t see those mountains unless there’s a full moon.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - keep the shiny side up, attempt to fly the route, then let people know. Communication is last for a reason.

Even in my lowly Cirrus SR22, when I take off from KPSP IFR, I dial the DP in two ways...VOR (choice #1) and GPS (plan B).

GPS is your plan B? I would say for virtually all of my flying GPS is Plan A, and the VORs are Plan B. GPS of course is way more accurate. (This assumes the DP can be loaded from the GPS with all the correct turn points and such.) So your choice is interesting.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - keep the shiny side up, attempt to fly the route, then let people know. Communication is last for a reason.



GPS is your plan B? I would say for virtually all of my flying GPS is Plan A, and the VORs are Plan B. GPS of course is way more accurate. (This assumes the DP can be loaded from the GPS with all the correct turn points and such.) So your choice is interesting.

Could be my mistake. I figure since it’s a VOR-centric approach, I use VOR’s first.

 

[PaulS]

Could be my mistake. I figure since it’s a VOR-centric approach, I use VOR’s first.

I'd use the GPS first too, which avionics do you have?

 

[Pilawt]

Departure from the same runway at Palm Springs. Airplane never turned. One of the passengers was Frank Sinatra's mother.

 

[luvflyin]

Two weeks ago, I was #2 departing KPSP 31L on the Cathedral 1 departure procedure at night. This is a fairly complex DP, as it involves a heading climb until you cross a VOR radial, and then at least 2 climbing turns.

I watched the airliner in front of me, and noted he turned way before the radial. In Palm Springs, you need to follow all IFR procedures carefully, as there are 10,000 feet mountains all around you, and the airport is at 500 MSL.

In this case the control tower called out the error. The pilot replied, “Yes, our FMS failed and we would like to request vectors.” The controller seemed a bit taken aback by this claim, but issued vectors nevertheless. I expected to hear, “call this number”, but the episode ended there as far as I know.

I have a some questions about this incident.

1. Is the pilot likely to get cited after the fact? I mean this was an airliner with over 100 people.

2. In the event of a failure, shouldn’t he have reported the FMS failure immediately, rather than silently initiating a turn? I mean...gosh...it was night, and if the FMS failed...it’s Palm Springs and you can’t see those mountains unless there’s a full moon.

3. Don’t modern airliners have back-up nav systems? Even in my lowly Cirrus SR22, when I take off from KPSP IFR, I dial the DP in two ways...VOR (choice #1) and GPS (plan B). If fact I always do this. That way if one method fails, I switch, not unlike switching to a Localizer approach if the ILS glide slope fails.

Any thoughts on this incident?

1. As far as I know there is no mandatory requirement for the controller to ‘report’ it unless there is an ‘incident’ such as loss of separation.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

I'd use the GPS first too, which avionics do you have?

I have a full Avidyne PFD / MFD / DFC90 autopilot, plus (much of it redundant to Avidyne) Garmin 750 / 650 touch screens. The system will fly the DP for me, but I do it myself to stay current usually.

 

[aterpster]

Departure from the same runway at Palm Springs. Airplane never turned. One of the passengers was Frank Sinatra's mother.

View attachment 82105

That was before PSP had radar nor did it have SIDs. The Lear was given non-radar routing to the east. The assigned altitude was 9,000. The crew simply maintained runway heading, blowing right through the clearance route. The were "radar babies;" i.e., thought they were going to get radar vectors. They leveled off at 9,000 and flew into the side of 11,499' Mt. San Gorgonio. They popped up on LA Center radar leaving 7,000, or so. A center supervisor was watching the scope at the sector expecting the Lear to be handed off to them. The supervisor got on the landline to PSP non-radar approach/departure control to tell them to issue the Lear an immediate climb to 14,000. But, it was all too late. That was a charter to take Frank Sinatra's mother to KLAS.

 

[Groundpounder]

I have a full Avidyne PFD / MFD / DFC90 autopilot, plus (much of it redundant to Avidyne) Garmin 750 / 650 touch screens. The system will fly the DP for me, but I do it myself to stay current usually.

Stay current how? You'd be much better off staying proficient at using the equipment you have on board that is much more accurate than the backup. Unfamiliarity with using automation has killed more pilots than lack of proficiency at using a VOR.

Unless separation was compromised, there will not likely be anything more said of it officially. The pilot of that aircraft may do well to watch the American Airlines video "Children of the Magenta Line" where he specifically talks about scenerios just like this...

COTML has nothing to do with what the OP described. You can't "click click" on a complex SID at night/in IMC.

 

[aterpster]

3. Don’t modern airliners have back-up nav systems?
Any thoughts on this incident?

He didn't need a backup system. He should have selected Cathedral One in his FMS, then selected Runway 31L, and then below the departure route shown in his FMS, enter TNP, BLH, or YUCCA, as appropriate to his route clearance. Here's how it looks in a Garmin (with TNP) selected after the departure. Runway heading to wapoint PSP268, track to fix PSP, then the loop to EMRUD and back to PSP.

 

[kayoh190]

I've had a similar thing happen while coming out of LAS at night on the STAAV - we took off to the west and the flight plan dropped out seconds later. Nice thing is, you can see all the red and yellow of the terrain in front of us on our MFDs, so the initial response (after muttering "WTF?") was to turn to the north - knowing that's what the STAAV would've had us do anyway - and then make a call to ATC to let them know what we were doing and get some vectors while we reloaded the box. These things happen, although fortunately rarely.

That said, I sometimes operate out of PSP and we'll draw the 268 radial off of PSP as an additional piece of SA.

 

[smv]

COTML has nothing to do with what the OP described. You can't "click click" on a complex SID at night/in IMC

"Can't" or "Should not"?

 

[RussR]

A few people have mentioned aviate, navigate, communicate. But are you technically actuating if you are unable to navigate? Seems like in this particular instance, had they not done it backwards (communicate first) they may have found something solid in front of them.

For the mnemonic Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, I describe Aviate in a much narrower sense than you might when talking about what makes someone a good “Aviator”. In A,N,C, to me “Aviate” simply means “maintain aircraft control.” Keep the shiny side up, etc.

 

[aterpster]

I've had a similar thing happen while coming out of LAS at night on the STAAV - we took off to the west and the flight plan dropped out seconds later. Nice thing is, you can see all the red and yellow of the terrain in front of us on our MFDs, so the initial response (after muttering "WTF?") was to turn to the north - knowing that's what the STAAV would've had us do anyway - and then make a call to ATC to let them know what we were doing and get some vectors while we reloaded the box. These things happen, although fortunately rarely.

That said, I sometimes operate out of PSP and we'll draw the 268 radial off of PSP as an additional piece of SA.

He should have had PSP VOR on his RMI.

 

[kayoh190]

He should have had PSP VOR on his RMI.

He might have done just that - knowing a turn back to the PSP VOR would keep him away from the terrain, he might have made that turn as soon as he realized his FMS wasn’t giving him what he needed. I’m just speculating of course though.

At least at my company, we’ll generally always have the NAV radios providing something useful in case the fancy stuff craps the bed.

 

[N1120A]

Keep an eye out for an ASRS report on this. Airline pilots are usually pretty good about them.

Could be my mistake. I figure since it’s a VOR-centric approach, I use VOR’s first.

With the equipment you have, the GPS guidance should be your primary, with the VOR as your backup. Knowing how to use that equipment is what will best keep you safe.

 

[Timbeck2]

Having flown the Cathedral 1 on my IFR cross country in the worst turbulence I've ever experienced in my airplane, I think that pilot should be hung up by the gonads and fed Ex-Lax.

On the other hand, I don't blame him.

 

[dtuuri]

Having flown the Cathedral 1 on my IFR cross country in the worst turbulence I've ever experienced in my airplane, I think that pilot should be hung up by the gonads and fed Ex-Lax.

What am I missing here? The OP says a pilot had an FMS failure and turned RIGHT. That's away from terrain, the way I see it, and toward the desert. Is that not good SA?

 

[dtuuri]

The crew simply maintained runway heading, blowing right through the clearance route. The [sic] were "radar babies;" i.e., thought they were going to get radar vectors.

I've departed PSP only once in my life that I recall. Coincidentally, it was in a Lear 24 exactly 56 days before that accident happened. I keenly followed the investigation. What I remember was a tiny little "R" up where the briefing strip is on the Jeppesens we used indicating "Radar". It could be easily missed when radar was available and even easier to miss was the fact it wasn't there in the first place. I.e., your default thinking needed to be that you were always in non-radar unless you saw the little "R" there. Today's pilots, I'm afraid, are defaulting the same way as that crew did on that fatal day — to radar available all the time.

 

[aterpster]

I've departed PSP only once in my life that I recall. Coincidentally, it was in a Lear 24 exactly 56 days before that accident happened. I keenly followed the investigation. What I remember was a tiny little "R" up where the briefing strip is on the Jeppesens we used indicating "Radar". It could be easily missed when radar was available and even easier to miss was the fact it wasn't there in the first place. I.e., your default thinking needed to be that you were always in non-radar unless you saw the little "R" there. Today's pilots, I'm afraid, are defaulting the same way as that crew did on that fatal day — to radar available all the time.

There wasn't any radar at PSP when that accident happened. And, the Jeppesen "R" is misleading at best. FAA charts don't have the "R." Case in point: Jepp charts at KELY have the "R" because the DCS shows that ZLC provides approach control services at Ely. But, center can't see aircraft below 13,000. This will eventually change over time with ADSB...eventually.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Today's pilots, I'm afraid, are defaulting the same way as that crew did on that fatal day — to radar available all the time.

I see that on a fairly regular basis on checkrides... “RADAR contact lost” to facilitate the procedure turn requirement of the ACS. They load the approach via vectors, and then try to make a 160-degree turn at the FAF work. Or fat-finger the FMS, lose the hold they’re headed to or in on the missed approach, and ask for vectors.

 

[aterpster]

I see that on a fairly regular basis on checkrides... “RADAR contact lost” to facilitate the procedure turn requirement of the ACS. They load the approach via vectors, and then try to make a 160-degree turn at the FAF work. Or fat-finger the FMS, lose the hold they’re headed to or in on the missed approach, and ask for vectors.

If I was still instructing, I would drill into their heads that it is bad form to make greater than a 90 degree course change in any RNAV approach procedure. Further, it is prohibited in design and ATC procedures. Also, course changes at the FAF are limited to 15 degrees for procedure design and direct-to-the-FAF is both "illegal" and could result in not going into approach mode, and possibly leaving protected airspace.

I would also make sure the pilots who use Jeppesen charts understand that the "R" is misleading and useless at some airports.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If I was still instructing, I would drill into their heads that it is bad form to make greater than a 90 degree course change in any RNAV approach procedure. Further, it is prohibited in design and ATC procedures. Also, course changes at the FAF are limited to 15 degrees for procedure design and direct-to-the-FAF is both "illegal" and could result in not going into approach mode, and possibly leaving protected airspace.

I would also make sure the pilots who use Jeppesen charts understand that the "R" is misleading and useless at some airports.

We drill that...unfortunately, sometimes it requires a hammer instead of a drill.

 

[luvflyin]

I've departed PSP only once in my life that I recall. Coincidentally, it was in a Lear 24 exactly 56 days before that accident happened. I keenly followed the investigation. What I remember was a tiny little "R" up where the briefing strip is on the Jeppesens we used indicating "Radar". It could be easily missed when radar was available and even easier to miss was the fact it wasn't there in the first place. I.e., your default thinking needed to be that you were always in non-radar unless you saw the little "R" there. Today's pilots, I'm afraid, are defaulting the same way as that crew did on that fatal day — to radar available all the time.

That woulda been a boo boo on Jepp's part. There weren't no Radar at PSP then. That accident is what got them Radar. Santa Barbara was supposed to have that Radar. It was boxed up and being shipped to Santa Barbara when that happened. It got diverted to Palm Springs and Santa Barbara had to wait a couple more years.

 

[luvflyin]

There wasn't any radar at PSP when that accident happened. And, the Jeppesen "R" is misleading at best. FAA charts don't have the "R." Case in point: Jepp charts at KELY have the "R" because the DCS shows that ZLC provides approach control services at Ely. But, center can't see aircraft below 13,000. This will eventually change over time with ADSB...eventually.

Maybe they'll come up with a new symbol. "D" to indicate ADSB coverage?

 

[dtuuri]

That woulda been a boo boo on Jepp's part. There weren't no Radar at PSP then. That accident is what got them Radar. Santa Barbara was supposed to have that Radar. It was boxed up and being shipped to Santa Barbara when that happened. It got diverted to Palm Springs and Santa Barbara had to wait a couple more years.

I didn't say it well. The chart did NOT have an "R", which was the point I was trying, albeit inelegantly, to make. The crew did not notice that there was no "R" and therefore no vectors would be forthcoming.

 

[aterpster]

The crew did not notice that there was no "R" and therefore no vectors would be forthcoming.

And, at ELY Jepp's "R" might make some radar baby depart Runway 34 (or worse 30) waiting for those vectors. Not only no vectors, center won't see him headed for a dirt sandwich

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I heard a controller the other day cancel a King Air's takeoff clearance because he was taking off on the wrong runway. One that a landing airplane was still on. I was shocked he didn't get a "hey give me a call".

 

[unsafervguy]

from the looks of the plates, i bet they put the thermal 6 in the box, its a right turn to 090.

 

[PaulS]

I heard a controller the other day cancel a King Air's takeoff clearance because he was taking off on the wrong runway. One that a landing airplane was still on. I was shocked he didn't get a "hey give me a call".

That happens so much at KBED that they include a message to confirm you are landing on the correct runway in the ATIS. My understanding is that if you mess it up you get the number to call.