Aircraft market

flyersfan31 said:
You mean other than crappy avionics,an engine that hasn't turned a prop in 5 yrs, and no mention of damage history??? If I were an a&p looking for an aged 210, I might bite.

But referring to the Barron Thomas thread, if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

Call 'em and report back.
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Oh I forgot, if it has more than 10 hours run time is needs overhaul, and if it isn't a new ura paint job it needs paint, and of course if it doesn't have a new GNC 650 it's crappy radios.

Plus if it doesn't say no damage history it must have been destroyed twice, and only the data tag has been salvaged.

And if it has not been annualed it must be a corroded mess,

How do you know it has not been run or preserved ?
 
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My hangar landlord listed his V35A Bonanza for sale a couple of weeks ago for a fair price; it sold in 3 days for pretty much asking price, flew away today. He had 2 solid backup offers, too.
 
SCCutler said:
My hangar landlord listed his V35A Bonanza for sale a couple of weeks ago for a fair price; it sold in 3 days for pretty much asking price, flew away today. He had 2 solid backup offers, too.
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one day we must talk about which bo to own.
 
SCCutler said:
My hangar landlord listed his V35A Bonanza for sale a couple of weeks ago for a fair price; it sold in 3 days for pretty much asking price, flew away today. He had 2 solid backup offers, too.
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If that's the one I saw it was a beautiful airplane.
 
Tom,

I think you are under the impression we are all A&P/IA's and can do ALL of our own maintenance, repairs, and restorations in our own shop. I can tell you personally, that is not the case.
 
Tom-D said:
What is happening ?

I saw this today, granted it has not been annualed since 06 but

http://barnstormers.com/classified_430337_Cessna+210+only+$22,000.html
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Tom I think its a few factors, First is obviously the economy plus price of fuel, and declining pilot population combined with influx of more and newer aircraft ( Supply and demand economics 101). More aircraft than pilots than can afford them is going to depress the price of planes on its own but those that can afford it and certainly the younger pilots for the most part are probably going to gravitate to the planes with the speed and wizbang panel.

Kind of like the old square tube TVs vs. the flat screen plasmas. The tube TVs still work and do what they are supposed to do but I can't even give mine away.
 
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Anthony said:
I think you are under the impression we are all A&P/IA's and can do ALL of our own maintenance, repairs, and restorations in our own shop. I can tell you personally, that is not the case.
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Bingo. I wouldn't buy that airplane for $22k unless I wanted to do a restoration of a 210. It needs it. It probably needs a lot of other things, too.
 
I might buy an airplane like that (and might not) knowing there will be lots of work and expense to make it airworthy so the up front price has to be right and the plane has to have something I want - low time airframe, unique plane, whatever...
The key is doing the grunt work yourself instead of paying $80 an hour for a mechanic to do it... The other key is having a mechanic who trusts you enough to inspect your work and sign it off...

The flip side of the coin is that is is usually cheaper in the long run to buy an airplane that is in top condition and just fly it - and keep it up...

There will be people who can afford to buy a run down airplane and just pay to have it gone over... They are few and far between....
There will be people who can afford to buy an airplane... They are getting fewer and further between by the day....
There are people who cannot now, and never will, afford an airplane... Their number is legion - and growing by the hour...

denny-o
 
Even doing the work yourself, I have the feeling that you'll put more money into that than its worth very quickly.

I remember a Cherokee 180 that showed up to the formation thingie. It was utterly tricked out, totally redone, with more in the panel than my airplane is worth. The mechanic who rebuilt it said he originally fixed the budget at $30K (about what a run of the mill Cherokee is worth these days), but at $30K he just stopped counting. I wouldn't be surprised if he had $100K in that thing. I haven't seen nicer.

The one side effect of doing a wings-off restoration is (if you do it right) you wind up with a brand-new airplane for a fraction of the cost of a factory built one. That, and you make a great old airplane flyable again, which is pretty cool in and of itself.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Bingo. I wouldn't buy that airplane for $22k unless I wanted to do a restoration of a 210. It needs it. It probably needs a lot of other things, too.
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What is in the Ad that makes you believe that this 210 would not fly well and operate as it should ?
 
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Tom-D said:
What is in the AD that makes you believe that this 210 would not fly well and operate as it should ?
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Since it's out of annual, it's not airworthy. If I went to go see it, how would I be able to know how well it flies and operates?
 
Trapper John said:
Since it's out of annual, it's not airworthy. If I went to go see it, how would I be able to know how well it flies and operates?
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Wouldn't you get an annual before buying ?
 
steingar said:
The one side effect of doing a wings-off restoration is (if you do it right) you wind up with a brand-new airplane for a fraction of the cost of a factory built one. That, and you make a great old airplane flyable again, which is pretty cool in and of itself.
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You also end up with an old airplane that's worth a fraction of your cost to restore it. In economic terms, that's not too cool.
 
Sorry Tom, any aircraft that has sat for years is automatically suspicious to just about any non-mechanic who has owned an aircraft. Could easily be a diamond in the rough. But the alternative is pretty bad.

Besides, if the owner really wanted it sold, don't you think he'd have an annual done and boost the price by whatever the annual cost? Its a 210, for Odin's sake! My guess is the owner isn't doing it because the owner is convinced that there's so much to do on the aircraft to eat up all his or her profits.
 
wabower said:
You also end up with an old airplane that's worth a fraction of your cost to restore it. In economic terms, that's not too cool.
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Utterly true. But if it is the airplane you're going to be flying for a long time, it could easily be worth it.
 
I think the problem with the older 210's and that type is age and cubbyholing. The plane is too old to be much good to today's business traveler but its not much of a toy for the hobby/fun flyer. The operating costs are too high to make it a good choice for the guy like me who wants a toy to fly on weekends and the occasional trip of over 1000miles that might be made. A 170 or 172 is a lot more economical for the fun flying and not that much more of a pain on long trips which will be made infrequently. Most guys who are really using their planes for business travel are willing to spend a bit more on something more modern where they get a little more bang for their buck. A lot of business flying is impressing the client too so the old style and look aren't any help. All this puts the old guys in a niche without a big following so the prices drop. I'd love to have that '60 210 for trips out to New Mexico or up to Maine to visit folks and inlaws but it just wouldn't be much good for the local hops I'd be doing a lot more of. That means despite the price its really not competition for the 170 or 172's niche and I am an A&P who could do maintainence on the thing.
Frank
 
Put it on floats and send it to Alaska, but not on my dime.
 
Tom-D said:
Wouldn't you get an annual before buying ?
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First of all, I don't trust Barnstormers ads that are listed by "friend of owner."

There are just too many inconsistencies - only 3 hr since a top overhaul and "fresh gear saddles" but it hasn't been annualed in 5 or 6 years?

As far as the annual goes, yes, as long as the seller pays for the annual and fixes any discrepancies. For another aircraft, I might spring for the annual cost, but not this one.
 
Jaybird180 said:
(student raises hand) Ferry Permit (?)
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To get it to the mechanic doing the annual perhaps, though I'm not certain whether to pin a medal for bravery or a dunce cap on the pilot willing to try. I doubt anyone will issue a ferry permit so you can put the aircraft through its paces.
 
Tom-D said:
What is in the AD that makes you believe that this 210 would not fly well and operate as it should ?
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- Out of annual for 5-6 years: Why?
- What deteriorated during that time period?
- What will break shortly after I start flying it?

I've done this enough times with enough different vehicles. If you can do your own work, it's could be a good deal. But most of us don't have an A&P/IA.

It may also need no work. But if it does... that's a risk.
 
steingar said:
I'd like to see the guy who signs off on an aircraft 5 years out of annual to fly somewhere for inspection. He's got bigger stones than me, that's for sure.
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Well, said mechanic will end up doing a certain amount of inspection prior to that sign-off to convince the FSDO to approve the ferry permit. However, it's not uncommon. That's the whole point of a ferry permit - understanding that the plane is no longer legal for whatever reason, but can be safely flown (perhaps with some extra precautions) to someplace where additional repairs can be performed.

When my instructor bought his Navajo, it had been sitting for about 5 years and was in rotten condition. He spent several days getting it flyable, got a ferry permit, and flew it home with the gear down.
 
So what's the cost to having a mechanic spend a few days repairing an aircraft just so it can be ferried for an annual or to be put through its paces? Sounds like a loosing proposition either way.
 
steingar said:
So what's the cost to having a mechanic spend a few days repairing an aircraft just so it can be ferried for an annual or to be put through its paces? Sounds like a loosing proposition either way.
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Pretty high relative to the $22,000 value in this case. Plus, ferry permits are limited to essential crew required to operate the aircraft. Some mechanic signs off and tosses me the keys, I'll say no thanks.

And if the thing's been sitting for 5 years, does the owner even have insurance? I think I'd want to know what coverage is in force before I end up as a ball of flame at the end of the runway...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That doesn't HAVE to be a limiting factor.
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Its a big frakking thing to overcome. Every time I talk about the least modification to my bird I have someone telling me I need a mechanic's sign off. I can't imagine what that thing would need done to it.
 
steingar said:
Its a big frakking thing to overcome. Every time I talk about the least modification to my bird I have someone telling me I need a mechanic's sign off. I can't imagine what that thing would need done to it.
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If you have a good working relationship with your mechanic, it really isn't that big a deal. You can do anything you want with your airplane as long as you are under the supervision of a certified mechanic.

Of course, you have to have confidence in your ability to do the work.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
If you have a good working relationship with your mechanic, it really isn't that big a deal. You can do anything you want with your airplane as long as you are under the supervision of a certified mechanic.

Of course, you have to have confidence in your ability to do the work.
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No, the mechanic has to have the confidence in your work, or he'll have to check every last thing you've done. It's a big deal, especially for a big complex project like that 210. And unless you're based in that area, odds are the mechanic doesn't know you from squat, and will want to check your work carefully indeed. If he signs off on it and the thing winds up in a fireball at the end of the runway, it'll be his six in a sling.

I imagine you can have an easy time doing stuff to your own airplane at your own field and getting it signed off by your own mechanic. I maintain that trying to repair mystery plane at remote airport with unknown mechanic is a totally different deal. Might turn out to be worth it, but it is a big gamble no matter how you slice it.
 
steingar said:
No, the mechanic has to have the confidence in your work, or he'll have to check every last thing you've done.
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Well, actually BOTH parties have to have the confidence and the mechanic technically has to check every last thing done anyway.

It's a big deal, especially for a big complex project like that 210.
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Well if you look at it as one big project. It is actually one little project at a time.

I imagine you can have an easy time doing stuff to your own airplane at your own field and getting it signed off by your own mechanic. I maintain that trying to repair mystery plane at remote airport with unknown mechanic is a totally different deal. Might turn out to be worth it, but it is a big gamble no matter how you slice it.
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That is why you get a THOROUGH prebuy inspection done, and if it looks like a project one wants to tackle, they get a ferry permit to fly it to their own airport to do the work under the supervision of THEIR mechanic.
 
I'm a PP-ASEL in my early 30s and I certainly wish I was in the market to buy a plane right now. It is certainly a buyer's market.

To be honest, the complexities of ownership, insurance, annuals, and even finding a trustworthy A&P to inspect the plane before I buy are a little baffling. They don't teach you that stuff in flight school.

Owning my own Cessna 177 fixed gear with a CS prop or some sort of Mooney M20 sure sounds more appealing than renting and being a slave to somebody else's schedule.

While it would be nice to be able to announce "Centurion" in the pattern, I think they're just a bit too expensive to operate to even consider for me.
 
MSPAviator said:
Owning my own Cessna 177 fixed gear with a CS prop
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I really like the lines of a fixed gear Cardinal. If you ever get one, make sure to always park with the nose into the wind. If the wind catches the door and flings it open, it costs about a grand to fix it 30 years ago. Not sure what it would cost today.
 
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