Aircraft market

[SkyHog]

Tom,

I think you are under the impression we are all A&P/IA's and can do ALL of our own maintenance, repairs, and restorations in our own shop. I can tell you personally, that is not the case.

It is "half" the case. We are not all A&P/IAs, but we could all do our own work. Airplanes are, by far, the easiest things in the world to work on....and A&Ps the most overpaid of all mechanics.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

....and A&Ps the most overpaid of all mechanics.

That is debatable. Most of them could make more money in the automotive industry.

 

[wabower]

Well, actually BOTH parties have to have the confidence and the mechanic technically has to check every last thing done anyway.



Well if you look at it as one big project. It is actually one little project at a time.



That is why you get a THOROUGH prebuy inspection done, and if it looks like a project one wants to tackle, they get a ferry permit to fly it to their own airport to do the work under the supervision of THEIR mechanic.

And best undertaken with the knowledge that the odds of successfully completing the project within 2X the orginal time and money estimates are roughly equivalent to those of successfully cheating a trading-post indian.

 

[zaitcev]

What is in the AD that makes you believe that this 210 would not fly well and operate as it should ?

Please stop using this acronym to refer to advertisements, unless you are trying to make a clever pun how the ad for the ready-to-scrap 210 that you listed is one giant Airworthiness Directive.

 

[alaskaflyer]

It is "half" the case. We are not all A&P/IAs, but we could all do our own work. Airplanes are, by far, the easiest things in the world to work on....and A&Ps the most overpaid of all mechanics.

WTF do auto mechanics have to do these days except scan barcodes? All their decisions are made by the computer software.

 

[Tom-D]

You also end up with an old airplane that's worth a fraction of your cost to restore it. In economic terms, that's not too cool.

Who says it needs restoring ?

 

[wabower]

I do. Because it will. They all do.

Who says it needs restoring ?

 

[Tom-D]

Sorry Tom, any aircraft that has sat for years

How do you know it has sat for years? They just put a top on it.

is automatically suspicious to just about any non-mechanic who has owned an aircraft. Could easily be a diamond in the rough. But the alternative is pretty bad.

Why not simply make it airworthy and fly it the way it is?

Besides, if the owner really wanted it sold, don't you think he'd have an annual done and boost the price by whatever the annual cost? Its a 210, for Odin's sake! My guess is the owner isn't doing it because the owner is convinced that there's so much to do on the aircraft to eat up all his or her profits.

Maybe the owner is on his death bed and doesn't want to do anything with, and the friend is simply selling it.

Why does every one think any aircraft must be in new condition to fly?

 

[wabower]

Maybe the owner is on his death bed and doesn't want to do anything with, and the friend is simply selling it.

Who cares?

Why does every one think any aircraft must be in new condition to fly?

Because they've learned the hard way from buying ones that weren't.

 

[Tom-D]

I do. Because it will. They all do.

It's a 57 year old aircraft, every one doesn't have the need to have a new aircraft. Some of us fly what we have, the way they are. I'd rather buy gas than paint any day.

 

[Tom-D]

So what's the cost to having a mechanic spend a few days repairing an aircraft just so it can be ferried for an annual or to be put through its paces? Sounds like a loosing proposition either way.

$350 per day plus expenses, will get me.

 

[flyersfan31]

It's a 57 year old aircraft, every one doesn't have the need to have a new aircraft. Some of us fly what we have, the way they are. I'd rather buy gas than paint any day.

Then buy it.

 

[Tom-D]

First of all, I don't trust Barnstormers ads that are listed by "friend of owner."

That's just you.

There are just too many inconsistencies - only 3 hr since a top overhaul and "fresh gear saddles" but it hasn't been annualed in 5 or 6 years?

3 hours of flight time it had the cylinders overhauled, the gear saddles were replaced X hours ago,,,,,,neither has any thing to do with an annual.

As far as the annual goes, yes, as long as the seller pays for the annual and fixes any discrepancies. For another aircraft, I might spring for the annual cost, but not this one.

When you order an annual to be completed, you should pay for it, because you will be flying for the next 12 months.

no body flys for free, only those who do, are mostly tire kickers.

 

[wabower]

How did the discussion of a an old 5-year out of annual airplane turn into a discussion of paint? There's no question it needs paint, and probably an interior too, but we're not even close to discussing those details yet.

It's a 57 year old aircraft, every one doesn't have the need to have a new aircraft. Some of us fly what we have, the way they are. I'd rather buy gas than paint any day.

 

[Tom-D]

Pretty high relative to the $22,000 value in this case. Plus, ferry permits are limited to essential crew required to operate the aircraft. Some mechanic signs off and tosses me the keys, I'll say no thanks.

And if the thing's been sitting for 5 years, does the owner even have insurance? I think I'd want to know what coverage is in force before I end up as a ball of flame at the end of the runway...

Have you ever heard of preflights, or engine run ups and mag checks? or even or test flights after maintenance?

Has any one ever told you that you bring you own mechanic to inspect?

If your Mechanic signs off that easy, I'd find a new one no matter how long the aircraft has sat.

I can assure you the engine has been run after the top overhaul.

 

[Tom-D]

How did the discussion of a an old 5-year out of annual airplane turn into a discussion of paint? There's no question it needs paint, and probably an interior too, but we're not even close to discussing those details yet.

That is easy, just read the thread.

You said it needed restoration, I say No, I'd rather fly, and buy gas rather than paint etc.

Pay attention Wayne !

 

[Trapper John]

It's a 57 year old aircraft...

What's today's date?

 

[wabower]

I think you might want to do the same insofar as the thread is concerned. You're opinion of value notwithstanding, nobody but you wants it.

That is easy, just read the thread.

You said it needed restoration, I say No, I'd rather fly, and buy gas rather than paint etc.

Pay attention Wayne !

 

[Trapper John]

When you order an annual to be completed, you should pay for it, because you will be flying for the next 12 months.

I didn't order an annual, try to pay attention.

no body flys for free, only those who do, are mostly tire kickers.

Uh-huh.

 

[Tom-D]

It is "half" the case. We are not all A&P/IAs, but we could all do our own work. Airplanes are, by far, the easiest things in the world to work on....and A&Ps the most overpaid of all mechanics.

Are you required to cope with the FAA?
Are you required to maintain a pubs library?
Are you required to deal with pilots?
Are you required to attend re-current training each year, or complete a certain amount of work each year?
Are you required to comply with the FARs?
Are you required to have all the required tools to repair 4-5 manufacturers products

Wrench bending is the easy part, it's the other BS you are paying for.
Remember one owner screws me the others pay for it because I still have to eat.

 

[SkyHog]

That is debatable. Most of them could make more money in the automotive industry.

It was, admittedly, a half-trolling thread, but the point is valid: Wrenching on an airplane is a whole lot easier than wrenching on a car, but it sure does cost a lot to have work done on an airplane...

 

[Tom-D]

I didn't order an annual, try to pay attention.

and you never will, because any owner with any sense will run you and your attitude off, unrealistic expectations can always be spotted quickly

Tire kickers have a pattern, and always can find an excuse to buy.

 

[wabower]

Hourly labor rates at every shop on our big-city field are 15-20% lower than any auto dealer in the city. Auto shops are also much more likely to charge flat rate rather than actual time worked. Gross profit margins for labor are much lower in GA than in automotive, and mechanics can make much more in automotive.

It was, admittedly, a half-trolling thread, but the point is valid: Wrenching on an airplane is a whole lot easier than wrenching on a car, but it sure does cost a lot to have work done on an airplane...

 

[SkyHog]

Hourly labor rates at every shop on our big-city field are 15-20% lower than any auto dealer in the city. Auto shops are also much more likely to charge flat rate rather than actual time worked. Gross profit margins for labor are much lower in GA than in automotive, and mechanics can make much more in automotive.

Ok - then explain this one:

Changing Spark Plugs in a car: ~$100-$200
Changing Spark Plugs in a plane: ~$500-$1000

Changing a tire on a car: ~$25
Changing a tire on a plane: ~$100-$200

Changing oil in a car: ~$29.99
Changing oil in a plane: ~$150

I get that an A&P may not be making as much as he should if he works for a big shop....but that's not the point I'm making. Shop rates are insane.

 

[Tom-D]

What's today's date?

When do you believe the aircraft was built?

or are you checking my math?

 

[Trapper John]

Have you ever heard of preflights, or engine run ups and mag checks? or even or test flights after maintenance?

Has any one ever told you that you bring you own mechanic to inspect?

If your Mechanic signs off that easy, I'd find a new one no matter how long the aircraft has sat.

Clearly no one knows as much as you. That's why they're all booking flights to Billings so they can buy this fine example of a 210 out from under you.

I can assure you the engine has been run after the top overhaul.

Did you get that from the part of the ad that says, "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Only 3 since a complete top overhaul[/FONT]..."?

 

[Trapper John]

When do you believe the aircraft was built?

The ad says it's a 1960 model.

 

[Tom-D]

Ok - then explain this one:

Changing Spark Plugs in a car: ~$100-$200
Changing Spark Plugs in a plane: ~$500-$1000

Changing a tire on a car: ~$25
Changing a tire on a plane: ~$100-$200

Changing oil in a car: ~$29.99
Changing oil in a plane: ~$150

I get that an A&P may not be making as much as he should if he works for a big shop....but that's not the point I'm making. Shop rates are insane.

do you really believe that ? try getting your RV worked on. shop rates starts at $200.00 per hour.

Can I be your Mechanic? I do not charge nearly that much.

 

[SkyHog]

do you really believe that ? try getting your RV worked on. shop rates starts at $200.00 per hour.

Can I be your Mechanic? I do not charge nearly that much.

Just for grins - how much do you charge for an oil change in a Cherokee 180? All inclusive, including oil/filter.

 

[wabower]

So is it fair to assume you'd be interested in a small wager, maybe something around $1,000, relative to the accuracy of the information I provided?

BTW, the explanations are simple.

Ok - then explain this one:

Changing Spark Plugs in a car: ~$100-$200
Changing Spark Plugs in a plane: ~$500-$1000

The numbers are incorrect unless the plugs were replaced.

Changing a tire on a car: ~$25
Changing a tire on a plane: ~$100-$200

Are the tasks equivalent? Is the auto mechanic required to remove a wheel pant, brake assembly, remove the wheel from the axle, break down the wheel-halves, remove and replace the tube and check/pack the wheel bearings?

Changing oil in a car: ~$29.99
Changing oil in a plane: ~$150

See above. How much de-cowling and safety-wiring is the car guy required to do?

I get that an A&P may not be making as much as he should if he works for a big shop....but that's not the point I'm making. Shop rates are insane.

How much log-book work is the car guy required to do? How about shop notes? Tech notes? Does the car guy have to go pick up the car in the owners garage, or does the owner bring it to the shop?

Spend a few days in a shop watching the guys work, and check their work orders, shop notes and tech notes to see what they did on each job. Then let's talk.

 

[Tom-D]

Just for grins - how much do you charge for an oil change in a Cherokee 180? All inclusive, including oil/filter.

I tell my customers to change their own freaking oil.

 

[Tom-D]

Did you get that from the part of the ad that says, "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Only 3 since a complete top overhaul[/FONT]..."?

Do you believe FAR 43.9 will be complied with by the A&P?

 

[Tom-D]

The ad says it's a 1960 model.

in that time period Cessna was building as much as 1 year in advance of delivery.

you'd really have to check Cessna's records to know build date

 

[alaskaflyer]

I tell my customers to change their own freaking oil.

Good for you

 

[Trapper John]

Do you believe FAR 43.9 will be complied with by the A&P?

How can I predict what an unknown person will do?

I have no way of knowing what the logs look like, nor do I know who will be hired to check them.

 

[flyersfan31]

Ok - then explain this one:

Changing Spark Plugs in a car: ~$100-$200
Changing Spark Plugs in a plane: ~$500-$1000

Changing a tire on a car: ~$25
Changing a tire on a plane: ~$100-$200

Changing oil in a car: ~$29.99
Changing oil in a plane: ~$150

I get that an A&P may not be making as much as he should if he works for a big shop....but that's not the point I'm making. Shop rates are insane.

Well, one issue is volume. I don't know numbers, but based on what I see most A&Ps are lucky to have one or two planes a day to work on. An auto mech usually does a lot more business.

Plus, auto mechs don't have to safety wire. THey don't fill out logs. They don't have to crack wheel halves. I find it hard to believe that auto mech training is anywhere near as extensive as A&P training. Plus, they have OBD II to tell them exactly where the problem is.

i'd say A&Ps are in a bind -- they cant get enough volume to get prices down, but pilots in general are such cheap bastards that they can't charge enough to make it pay. No wonder there is a dearth of A&Ps

 

[wabower]

The paperwork for my 1960 Cessna 180 shows it was built in April, 1960. Why would I care if some of the riveting was done in December of 1959?

in that time period Cessna was building as much as 1 year in advance of delivery.

you'd really have to check Cessna's records to know build date

 

[wabower]

Wrench bending is the easy part, it's the other BS you are paying for.
Remember one owner screws me the others pay for it because I still have to eat.

YGBSM. Collecting your receivables is your problem, not your customers' problem. If you raise your rates due to your inability to get paid, your customers get to decide whether they want to pay you at all, let alone whether they want to pay you more.

 

[SkyHog]

Are you required to cope with the FAA?

They deal with the DOT

Are you required to maintain a pubs library?

Most shops do.

Are you required to deal with pilots?

They're required to deal with drivers, often teenage girls...or old men

Are you required to attend re-current training each year, or complete a certain amount of work each year?

You mean like ASE certification?

Are you required to comply with the FARs?

A&Ps are limited to 14CFR. You should see what auto mechanics are required to adhere to (its not all in one part of the code of federal regulations for starters, its all over the board)

Are you required to have all the required tools to repair 4-5 manufacturers products

Try OEM tools for the domestic cars: Ford, Chevy, Dodge
Try also, any special tools for the foreign cars, of which there are many, many more than 4-5.

Wrench bending is the easy part, it's the other BS you are paying for.
Remember one owner screws me the others pay for it because I still have to eat.

I'm sorry, but dealing with the customers, the agency that regulates you, and the vehicles you maintain is not unique to A&Ps. A&Ps just complain louder.

 

[steingar]

Nick, I have tried really really hard to hold my tongue on this, but you are enormously short-sighted on this issue. Automotive work is specialized. Few mechanics have to know engine, transmission, body, and electronics. Automotive work is highly specialized, reducing training time. Every A&P has to be able to do it all.

Automotive mechanics can go to the local NAPA for parts. A&Ps can't. The DOT doesn't go after mechanics after car crashes. The FAA does go after A&Ps. Most importantly, if my auto mechanic messes up, the most likely scenario is me stranded by the side of the road. If my airplane mechanic messes up, the most likely scenario is me dead.

I know for a fact that boat mechanics are egregiously expensive, as are motorcycle mechanics. Everything comes expensive in aviation. There just aren't enough of us to spread out the costs, and it will get worse before it gets better. If you want less expensive, go experimental. If you want cheap, get a motorcycle, but be ready to fix it yourself.