Aircraft market

SkyHog said:
Hey, I admitted it was a trolling post of sorts...but the point remains at least somewhat valid....

I don't understand how airplane work is cheaper than work on a car or motorcycle, when you can basically get your entire engine rebuilt on a car for about $3,000, and that's on the high end. Compare that to $15,000 or so to rebuild a standard O-360.
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You are confusing parts and labor. The labor, what the mechanic gets paid, is typically at worst equal to auto mechanics. Typically, though, it's less. A particular job may require more labor on a plane vs. a car, but that's independent.

Parts are another matter, and you should know by now that if you want the parts costs to go down on a certified plane, figure out a way to decrease lawyers and increase volume. Experimental is another matter.

I can't get labor on my cars done as cheaply as on the planes. Your point is incorrect and invalid.
 
wabower said:
For every airplane that turns out with an oil change and a lived happily ever after story, I'd be willing to bet there are many more that turn into hair-pulls of immense proportions..
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It's a simple case of 2% of the buyers making 100% of the news. no one ever hears of the happy new owner, that needs paint, and interior, just the ones who are crying.
 
When you shop for a used car, do you go for the 250k 1976 Dodge Aspen, or the 60k 1997 Chevy Oldsmobuick?

Plane buyers are no different. WHy buy a shotgun panel when you can get a standard t panel. Why buy a plane with a whistlestop tuner when you can get a KX, at worst, 170B? There are too many planes chasing too many potential owners. Moreover, for one 1960 vintage aircraft that has sat outside for 6 yrs but miraculously needs only an oil change and some Plexus on the windscreens there are 40 accidents waiting to happen.

I just have to laugh. Somehow, new pilots are dopes for wanting something with a decent interior (for which they'd get $0.20 on the dollar if they put it in themselves) or modern avionics (for which they'd get $0.20 on the dollar if they put it in themselves). Anyone who buys this airplane is a sucker or has a lot of not-very-valuable time on their hands. Full stop, end of story. !960 was fun. 1960 is done. We're in a new millennium.

And when did it become an aviation crime not to be a non-A&P owner?:dunno::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
flyersfan31 said:
When you shop for a used car, do you go for the 250k 1976 Dodge Aspen, or the 60k 1997 Chevy Oldsmobuick?

Plane buyers are no different. WHy buy a shotgun panel when you can get a standard t panel. Why buy a plane with a whistlestop tuner when you can get a KX, at worst, 170B? There are too many planes chasing too many potential owners. Moreover, for one 1960 vintage aircraft that has sat outside for 6 yrs but miraculously needs only an oil change and some Plexus on the windscreens there are 40 accidents waiting to happen.

I just have to laugh. Somehow, new pilots are dopes for wanting something with a decent interior (for which they'd get $0.20 on the dollar if they put it in themselves) or modern avionics (for which they'd get $0.20 on the dollar if they put it in themselves). Anyone who buys this airplane is a sucker or has a lot of not-very-valuable time on their hands. Full stop, end of story. !960 was fun. 1960 is done. We're in a new millennium.

And when did it become an aviation crime not to be a non-A&P owner?:dunno::rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Show me any aircraft as capable as the this early 210 for that money.
 
Although it's probably at least 5k too high in the best case, "that" money isn't the issue. It's "the rest of the money" that must be factored into the deal. At this point, the additional cost is an unknown, but potentially represents a very high percentage of the initial purchase price.

To check out the airplane and make a decision as to whether it's worth buying will cost some money. For me, a reasonable estimate of look-see cost would be $2k. I wouldn't mind throwing $2k of spec money at a deal I really wanted, but if it's a "who cares" deal like this one appears to be for everybody but you, that's a lot of money for a maybe-so. The early models were just Flintstone-era 182RG's anyway, so the "capability" isn't all that wonderful.

It's not "that"
Tom-D said:
Show me any aircraft as capable as the this early 210 for that money.
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wabower said:
At this point, the additional cost is an unknown, but potentially represents a very high percentage of the initial purchase price.
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If the additional cost is genuinely unknown, how can any of the last half of the quoted sentence be valid in any useful way? Couldn't you have just as legitimately written:

"At this point, the additional cost is an unknown, but potentially represents a very low percentage of the initial purchase price."
 
Whatever you say. How many airplane deals have you done?

Jim Logajan said:
If the additional cost is genuinely unknown, how can any of the last half of the quoted sentence be valid in any useful way? Couldn't you have just as legitimately written:

"At this point, the additional cost is an unknown, but potentially represents a very low percentage of the initial purchase price."
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What Wayne said.

This plane is a total unknown. I'm no metallurgist, but sitting 6 yrs???

If I were an A&P, and considered my time to be worth $0, then sure, it's a screamin' deal. I'm not an A&P, and my time is worth a lot more than $0.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

You want to offer something with hair on the deal??? Then post an ad like this one....
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1242759.html
 
wabower said:
Although it's probably at least 5k too high in the best case, "that" money isn't the issue. It's "the rest of the money" that must be factored into the deal. At this point, the additional cost is an unknown, but potentially represents a very high percentage of the initial purchase price.

To check out the airplane and make a decision as to whether it's worth buying will cost some money. For me, a reasonable estimate of look-see cost would be $2k. I wouldn't mind throwing $2k of spec money at a deal I really wanted, but if it's a "who cares" deal like this one appears to be for everybody but you, that's a lot of money for a maybe-so. The early models were just Flintstone-era 182RG's anyway, so the "capability" isn't all that wonderful.

It's not "that"
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You don't know that with any certainty for all we know the person who bought it today got a great aircraft.

The Ad is off Barnstormers.

He who snoozes, looses.
 
Tom-D said:
You don't know that with any certainty for all we know the person who bought it today got a great aircraft.

The Ad is off Barnstormers.

He who snoozes, looses.
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I'm sure we all hope the purchaser is estatic.
 
flyersfan31 said:
What Wayne said.

This plane is a total unknown. I'm no metallurgist, but sitting 6 yrs???

sitting does nothing to the airframe, with the exception of corrosion and that is easy spotted.

If I were an A&P, and considered my time to be worth $0, then sure, it's a screamin' deal. I'm not an A&P, and my time is worth a lot more than $0.

the aircraft sold today(at least its off Barnstormers) at a smoking deal, cleaned up and flying it will sell for 40k if the market remains steady.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Your birdy flew away to day while ya'll were arguing about A&P wages.

You want to offer something with hair on the deal??? Then post an ad like this one....
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1242759.html
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Did you see a price?

It's a repo? no logs or records, and probably no title either. How would you like to drop a bundle and not be able to get clear title because there are leins on it.

nope give me any project except a paper mess.
 
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wabower said:
I'm sure we all hope the purchaser is estatic.
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ho cares?
11.jpg
 
wabower said:
Whatever you say. How many airplane deals have you done?
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I make no claims about airplane deals. I merely posted to say that I considered one of your statements self-contradictory. Either you know something about X or you don't know something X. You wrote a sentence that, at worst, appeared to claim both.
 
I kinda thought figured as much. When you learn something about airplane deals, the context of the statement will be pretty clear. Prospective buyers aren't worried about how little potential financial exposure they might have with respect to the condition of the plane and their ultimate costs of repair.

Jim Logajan said:
I make no claims about airplane deals. I merely posted to say that I considered one of your statements self-contradictory. Either you know something about X or you don't know something X. You wrote a sentence that, at worst, appeared to claim both.
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wabower said:
I kinda thought figured as much. When you learn something about airplane deals, the context of the statement will be pretty clear. Prospective buyers aren't worried about how little potential financial exposure they might have with respect to the condition of the plane and their ultimate costs of repair.
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Exactly. That "good deal" could easily turn into a restoration deal that would cost as much as a nice 210.

I got a similar deal on my Aztec. I still maintain it was a good deal, but I would have been much more reluctant to buy it were it not for the fact that I have an excellent maintenance support network and my mechanic knew the plane personally for the previous 8 years.

There's a huge difference between that and some deal on Barnstormers. Buyer beware.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Exactly. That "good deal" could easily turn into a restoration deal that would cost as much as a nice 210.

That's why a buyer should have his money ready, know what they are looking for, and know a good deal when they see one.

I got a similar deal on my Aztec. I still maintain it was a good deal, but I would have been much more reluctant to buy it were it not for the fact that I have an excellent maintenance support network and my mechanic knew the plane personally for the previous 8 years.

No one should be buying any aircraft with out that net work in place. Aren't we always preaching take your mechanic with you to inspect ?

There's a huge difference between that and some deal on Barnstormers. Buyer beware.
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It's not just Barnstormers, any where you see any ad that interests you, you must see the aircraft before you make any decision. But that 210 at that price deserves a look by any one who is wanting a 210.

At least 1 buy was smart enough to call, get the story of why it sat, and why the cylinders were changed, and decided to go have a look.
 
Speculation. You have no idea why the ad is gone.

Tom-D said:
It's not just Barnstormers, any where you see any ad that interests you, you must see the aircraft before you make any decision. But that 210 at that price deserves a look by any one who is wanting a 210.

At least 1 buy was smart enough to call, get the story of why it sat, and why the cylinders were changed, and decided to go have a look.
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Trapper John said:
The guy could be scratching his head wondering why his ad got a bunch of hits but no phone calls. It could be re-listed tomorrow for even less...
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Possibility----- I called, did you?
 
Tom-D said:
Possibility----- I called, did you?
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No, because I have more respect than to waste the time of someone whose plane I have no interest in.
 
Tom-D said:
Did you see a price?

It's a repo? no logs or records, and probably no title either. How would you like to drop a bundle and not be able to get clear title because there are leins on it.

nope give me any project except a paper mess.
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Well, first of all, there's a sucker born every minute. It having sold is no indication of its worth. I wish the buyer luck.

Remember, I defended A&P wages, or maybe you missed that post.

Again, you like it? You buy it. I'm willing to bet I could find a better plane selling for less than the cost of this + restoration. Now, if I were an A&P who assigned $0 to my opportunity cost of labor, welll.....
 
I'd think the early-model 210's would be among the thinnest of the already thin airplane markets.
 
wabower said:
I'd think the early-model 210's would be among the thinnest of the already thin airplane markets.
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They are a great aircraft, and a lower market makes for better deals.

Average flight time from Oak Harbor to Fairbanks 8 hours with a fuel stop in Northway.

Texas to LA no problems with the OPs load. Run them at optimum speed of 198 mph and you get a little over 800 miles in one hop, run at economy speed of 137, and you get over 1200 miles. In this market they are a great value.

Remove the kids seats in the rear row, load all the bags, all the fuel and 4 pax and go high and long. Rockies no problem, distance no problems, and the plus........ it will land any where a 172 will.
 
wabower said:
I'd think the early-model 210's would be among the thinnest of the already thin airplane markets.
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I tried selling my Apperson Jackrabbit at Barrett-Jackson. Didn't go so well. Same with the Kirward Derby.

Could be a different story with old 210s, though. Buffing the paint with Stoddard solvent might not up the value too much, but the buzz is primo...
 
Tom-D said:
They are a great aircraft, and a lower market makes for better deals.

Average flight time from Oak Harbor to Fairbanks 8 hours with a fuel stop in Northway.

Texas to LA no problems with the OPs load. Run them at optimum speed of 198 mph and you get a little over 800 miles in one hop, run at economy speed of 137, and you get over 1200 miles. In this market they are a great value.

Remove the kids seats in the rear row, load all the bags, all the fuel and 4 pax and go high and long. Rockies no problem, distance no problems, and the plus........ it will land any where a 172 will.
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Dang, I should have known that guy was cheating me. The 1960 I bought only had four seats, and 65 gal tanks.
 
wabower said:
Dang, I should have known that guy was cheating me. The 1960 I bought only had four seats, and 65 gal tanks.
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You had standard tanks.

many changes to the 210 up to 66 when they lost the struts and gained 2 more seats.

The one I flew was a 64, LR tanks at 84 gallons IO-520 -A (285 horse) never exceed speed of 225 MPH. and a gross weight of 3100# average useful load listed at 1270.

That should meet the OP's requirements at half the cost of entry than most of the go fasts mentioned here.

Well worth the money

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1268742.html
 
I owned a D for 7 years and several thousand hours. Huge difference between that model and the original 60 model that you were shilling.

BTW, you were the OP. Is this a trick?



Tom-D said:
You had standard tanks.

many changes to the 210 up to 66 when they lost the struts and gained 2 more seats.

The one I flew was a 64, LR tanks at 84 gallons IO-520 -A (285 horse) never exceed speed of 225 MPH. and a gross weight of 3100# average useful load listed at 1270.

That should meet the OP's requirements at half the cost of entry than most of the go fasts mentioned here.

Well worth the money

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1268742.html
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wabower said:
I owned a D for 7 years and several thousand hours. Huge difference between that model and the original 60 model that you were shilling.

BTW, you were the OP. Is this a trick?
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I got my threads confused ..

still a great old aircraft.
 
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