Aircraft Logbooks

[John Collins]

The airlines I've worked for required the aircraft logbook to remain on the aircraft, except when maintenance has them in their office. The logbook is not a complete history of the aircraft. The complete history is maintained in company aircraft records department. But, the Logbook, most definitely remains with the aircraft.

You must be aware that part 121 of the regulations does not apply to aircraft operated under part 91. There is absolutely no regulation that requires that logbooks be kept in the aircraft. I asked you to quote the regulation, which you duly ignored. Nothing in part 43 or part 91 require logbooks to be kept inside the airplane and to continue to claim so without pointing to any regulation simply indicates you are trolling.

 

[weirdjim]

You must be aware that part 121 of the regulations does not apply to aircraft operated under part 91. There is absolutely no regulation that requires that logbooks be kept in the aircraft. I asked you to quote the regulation, which you duly ignored. Nothing in part 43 or part 91 require logbooks to be kept inside the airplane and to continue to claim so without pointing to any regulation simply indicates you are trolling.

...and folks, I agree with John. Please don't feed the troll. It only encourages him. Just ignore him.

Sort of like what WC Fields answered when somebody asked him who he voted for. "Vote? I don't vote. It just encourages the b@$+@rd$."

Jim

 

[GlennAB1]

It's already been explained. The regulation requires the logbook be made available for FAA inspection. My experience is; we carry the logbook on the aircraft. If you all want to be inconvenienced, and meet with the FAA at a later date, that's your choice. If I were flying around (cross country) with an aircraft that had structural damage (such as hail), I'd be prepared for the FAA.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It's already been explained. The regulation requires the logbook be made available for FAA inspection. My experience is; we carry the logbook on the aircraft. If you all want to be inconvenienced, and meet with the FAA at a later date, that's your choice. If I were flying around (cross country) with an aircraft that had structural damage (such as hail), I'd be prepared for the FAA.

That is your choice but there are all kinds of reasons to keep the logbooks somewhere safer than on the airplane.

 

[bluerooster]

Not really ..

I mean I'm in the hangar opening up the half a million panels, pulling plugs, greasing stuff and whatnot, he's over at the desk thumbing through the books to refresh his memory from the last time he saw the plane. After he's done looking in the books they go back in their case and back in the trunk of my car, day two we normally wrap things up and he prints up and signs the new annual stickers and they are added into the books, I pay him, we shoot the chit for a while and I'm off, never really considered it as asking for that much, or being out of the norm.

Guess we run in different aviation circles eh?

Pretty much same here. After inspection he hands me a list of stuff that need attention, tells me to fix it, and he'll inspect my work, and sign off.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Carrying my logbooks in our C-172 would decrease the usable load by at least one person. No. Books belong in bookcases. People belong in airplanes.

 

[OkieAviator]

Carrying my logbooks in our C-172 would decrease the usable load by at least one person. No. Books belong in bookcases. People belong in airplanes.

Your plane have a lot of issues? My 40 year old 172's complete volume of logs and receipts are in a 3" binder and weigh maybe 5 lbs if that.

 

[GlennAB1]

Thank you. And if it were digitized, it could weigh?

 

[FredStl]

I left my logs with my last A&P...until one day I needed to check something over a weekend. Could not get access then on Monday popped in before work and it was..."ummm, yeah, they are over here...nope, maybe in this cabinet...hold on a second..."

I left with my logbooks.

Now I keep possession of them, current A&P gives me a sticker but I will drop them off with him at annual time but I get them back once annual is completed.

Same thing happened to me. I couldn't track the IA down for a couple weeks and I was getting very nervous. That was the end of the mechanic having the books. Now they live exclusively in my office, all works gets a sticker except at annual when I briefly give the to the IA.

 

[FredStl]

Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed. It's not stealing. You know right where they are. Pay your bill.

Where is the requirement to weigh an aircraft with logbooks? POH yes, logbook- no.

 

[GlennAB1]

Already been beat to death. But, If you happen to keep your logbook in the aircraft, as 121 and 135 operators do and it is considered part of the empty weight, obviously it should be in the aircraft when weighed.

 

[kgruber]

Part 135 aircraft CERTAINLY are not required to carry their logbooks. Nor are they weighed with them.

Part 135 chief pilot/director of Maintenance for 25 years.

 

[GlennAB1]

That would be in a specific operators GMM or W&B manual. You operated with no maintenance performed away from base? Or, you had electronic logbook 25 years ago?

 

[wilkersk]

I suspect some mechanics use the log-books as insurance of prompt payment. In addition, I couldn't imagine the liability involved in signing off an annual with out a close inspection of the logbook. If your mechanic isn't handing you back your logs when you pay him, I suspect one, or both, of you are doing it wrong.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That would be in a specific operators GMM or W&B manual. You operated with no maintenance performed away from base? Or, you had electronic logbook 25 years ago?

When I was aircrew on a 135 gig we didn't have any logs on board. They all lived at home base with mx control and the DOM. we had lots of mx performed while away from base including heavy mx. I was ramped a couple of times. Never an issue because we were compliant with our FAA approved mx program on the 135 cert.

As far as part 91 especially part 91 piston ga, the asi's know we don't fly with logbooks of any kind . They would be shocked if it was any other way. They frankly don't expect us to have them. So they don't take offense. Unless it's some ******* inspector that's only worked on a 121 team sticking his nose somewhere it don't belong.

 

[James331]

I suspect some mechanics use the log-books as insurance of prompt payment. ....

This would be along the same lines as me walking out with the mechanics expensive bore scope to keep until I'm sure the work he preformed was worth what I paid. It's wrong, it's illegal in many places and it's just not the correct way to go about things.

If you have a valid complaint try to work it out face to face, otherwise if your complaint is valid and legal take them to court or get a legal lien, this is why we have these tools.



About the whole logs books in the plane thing, here's a snippet from the King 135 indoc program

 

[ircphoenix]

See? It says right there. "Aircraft maintenance logbooks. All of them."

 

[wilkersk]

This would be along the same lines as me walking out with the mechanics expensive bore scope to keep until I'm sure the work he preformed was worth what I paid......

I don't think I see it quite that way. The way I see it, its like not paying until the job is complete. Touching a mechanic's expensive borescope uninvited would be very counterproductive and not an incentive for a job well done at all.

 

[GlennAB1]

I don't think I see it quite that way. The way I see it, its like not paying until the job is complete. Touching a mechanic's expensive borescope uninvited would be very counterproductive and not an incentive for a job well done at all.

And they could get hurt, note the warning sticker on the toolbox.

 

[James331]

It's the same thing, don't try to take what doesn't belong to you.

When you go to a nice dinner with the wife or girlfriend, does the waiter hold onto your expensive watch or car keys until you pay?

If I don't pay, sue me or slap a lien on my plane. You don't get to take my stuff.

Keeping my logs against my will, for ANY reason, that's something worth far more than a bore scope and a very counterproductive thing to do as well, whatever misguided ideas you might have, first priority is to retrieve my property and I'm going to do that before I even listen to a word you have to say.

And they could get hurt, note the warning sticker on the toolbox.

Most of the APs I've dealt are older and not exactly looking like they work in a MMA ring...and you're right, when you operate outside of the law you take the risk that the other guy will take it a step further and might also have a few less decades and a few more pounds on you. It's just easier to not try to take others things, that's what I've been doing and it's worked well, my APIA and I get along well, he does good work and has respect and doesn't try to steal my crap, I pay him in cash, recommend people to him and don't try to screw him over, easy.

 

[wilkersk]

It's the same thing, don't try to take what doesn't belong to you.

When you go to a nice dinner with the wife or girlfriend, does the waiter hold onto your expensive watch or car keys until you pay?

I don't know, did you ask him to appraise it?

If I don't pay, sue me or slap a lien on my plane. You don't get to take my stuff.

Keeping my logs against my will, for ANY reason, that's something worth far more than a bore scope and a very counterproductive thing to do as well, whatever misguided ideas you might have, first priority is to retrieve my property and I'm going to do that before I even listen to a word you have to say.

I think you're way over thinking this here. I don't think someone would say, "give me your aircraft logbooks and I'll give 'em back when you pay me." Its more like, "I need to ensure that all the ADs have been complied with and properly documented in your logs, and when I'm done doing that AND inspecting your plane, I'll properly document the annual inspection in your aircraft logbook." At that time full payment is due. The check gets handed over. And, the logbooks are given back properly endorsed. No animosity, just proper conduct of business. If you have a more informal relationship with your A&P, that's great.

 

[3393RP]

Already been beat to death. But, If you happen to keep your logbook in the aircraft, as 121 and 135 operators do and it is considered part of the empty weight, obviously it should be in the aircraft when weighed.

"I was wrong again."

 

[GlennAB1]

Keeping my logs against my will, for ANY reason, that's something worth far more than a bore scope...

Maybe. I use one $36,000.00 borescope that has measurement and recording capabilities.