Aircraft Logbooks

A

Arrow115

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
241
Location
The Woodlands, TX
Display Name
Display name:
Chris
I have heard from some owners that they don't leave their aircraft logs with anyone. The A&P gives them a sticker that they put in the logs. My question is for the A&Ps. Do you have a problem with an owner keeping their logs and you just giving them a sticker with work performed and a signoff? Is there a reason that you would need to look at the previous log entries? If you need to look at the previous log entries, would a scan/ copy of the books work or would you need originals?
 
Arrow115 said:
I have heard from some owners that they don't leave their aircraft logs with anyone. The A&P gives them a sticker that they put in the logs. My question is for the A&Ps. Do you have a problem with an owner keeping their logs and you just giving them a sticker with work performed and a signoff? Is there a reason that you would need to look at the previous log entries? If you need to look at the previous log entries, would a scan/ copy of the books work or would you need originals?
Click to expand...


If I need to research something I want every scrap of paper you have.

If you came in for a transponder inspection, oil change, altimeter swap or some sort of small maintenance action, I'll give you a sticky.
 
Thank you for your response. Not trying to be difficult but I am trying to avoid my logbooks being held by others for prolonged periods of time. So, for an annual inspection, would legible copy/scans of everything work or is that a no no?

My first mechanic told me when I first bought my plane that he would keep the logs for convenience (never again). Current mechanic gives me back the log books but not quickly. Knowing how much of my planes value is tied to the logs, I am less inclined to hand out the books if not necessary.
 
Arrow115 said:
Thank you for your response. Not trying to be difficult but I am trying to avoid my logbooks being held by others for prolonged periods of time. So, for an annual inspection, would legible copy/scans of everything work or is that a no no? My first mechanic told me when I first bought my plane that he would keep the logs for convenience (never again). Current mechanic gives me back the log books but not quickly. Knowing how much of my planes value is tied to the logs, I am less inclined to hand out the books if not necessary.
Click to expand...
For an annual you have to. Otherwise, how would they check that you've complied with all of the ADs? A mechanic is not just going to take you word that this has been done, he needs to see it signed off in the logbook.
 
Als, if you came in for an annual I'd take pics of everything you brought me. That gets stored on my computer so I can look at it anytime.
Arrow115 said:
Thank you for your response. Not trying to be difficult but I am trying to avoid my logbooks being held by others for prolonged periods of time. So, for an annual inspection, would legible copy/scans of everything work or is that a no no?

My first mechanic told me when I first bought my plane that he would keep the logs for convenience (never again). Current mechanic gives me back the log books but not quickly. Knowing how much of my planes value is tied to the logs, I am less inclined to hand out the books if not necessary.
Click to expand...

In that case, bring me everything you have and I'll spend 15 minutes with a digital camera and photograph everything. That would make me feel good and you can take them with you. Everyone is happy. If something looks suspicious I may need the physical evidence again.
 
I like the physical book to look for torn out pages, sticky entries placed over thing etc. Tough to do with photocopies.
 
I put my life in the hands of a mechanic working on my aircraft.
If I trust him with my life I feel I can trust him with my log books.
 
I left my logs with my last A&P...until one day I needed to check something over a weekend. Could not get access then on Monday popped in before work and it was..."ummm, yeah, they are over here...nope, maybe in this cabinet...hold on a second..."

I left with my logbooks.

Now I keep possession of them, current A&P gives me a sticker but I will drop them off with him at annual time but I get them back once annual is completed.
 
I will let them go through my logs under my supervision, when I walk out of their office so do my logs.

Everything is backed up online and on local machines, if a AP needs to have a copy or go through it with me not being there I will provide a USB drive with every single piece of paper on the plane.

Nearly every pilot I know has some horror story of a trusted mechanic and a log book or similar.

The logs are worth like 20% of your planes value, when you have a plane that's in the 6 figure range, think of it as letting a AP keep $20,000 cash of YOURS for "safe keeping" I think not.

I don't even let anyone work on my plane unless I'm working along side of them, just too much money and risk at stake for me.
 
In general, log books are the property of the owner of the aircraft, not the mechanic.
An inspector can review the logbooks during an annual inspection but that is about it, he does not need to keep the books.
Some aircraft owners have a sole mechanic and thus keep their logbooks with him because it is easier on everybody.
 
I keep the log books in my hangar if the aircraft is in the hangar because I may be doing maintenance work on the aircraft myself.
 
I used to keep the originals with the plane, but that soon changed. I brought the logbooks in for every service until they said, no need and gave me a sticker.

For an annual I would definitely bring the books along with any other documentation I had. As for leaving them with a mechanic, I wouldn't mind doing that as long as it was someone/someplace I could trust.

Just sold my plane and having complete and continuous logs back 51 years is a major plus to the buyer. Missing entries/logbooks basically takes a huge chunk out of value, no way I would put that in jeopardy by handing the logs over to just anyone.
 
bnt83 said:
Als, if you came in for an annual I'd take pics of everything you brought me. That gets stored on my computer so I can look at it anytime.


In that case, bring me everything you have and I'll spend 15 minutes with a digital camera and photograph everything. That would make me feel good and you can take them with you. Everyone is happy. If something looks suspicious I may need the physical evidence again.
Click to expand...

That sounds very reasonable.

Shawn said:
I left my logs with my last A&P...until one day I needed to check something over a weekend. Could not get access then on Monday popped in before work and it was..."ummm, yeah, they are over here...nope, maybe in this cabinet...hold on a second..."

I left with my logbooks.

Now I keep possession of them, current A&P gives me a sticker but I will drop them off with him at annual time but I get them back once annual is completed.
Click to expand...

This is my worst fear.
 
Well missing a few years of old logs ain't that big of a deal presuming everything is covered IAW FARs, that said if I were a AP the last thing Id want to do is keep folks logs, it's just asking for trouble, one goes missing, hangar burns down, employee looses one, and now I just lost 5-50k worth of someone's stuff, don't know many shops who can just stroke a check for those amounts like nothing.
 
Last edited:
I know a pilot that has a copy of his logs that he gives to the mechanic.

I prefer the typed out pieces of paper and I put them in my log. That way I can read what he wrote.

If you do have to give them to the mechanic, get him to sign for them.
 
Logbooks are the property of the owner, but they belong with the aircraft. I can understand both, the owner and nechanics concerns. Mechanics have performed work and not been compensated and they have no recourse, so I can understand them wanting the logbook. I understand if the owner has trouble getting their logbook back, it's a pain. Whenever the aircraft is being operated or under maintenance the logbooks should be readily available for FAA inspection. The logbook belongs with the aircraft.
 
Have done it both ways,prefer to keep my logs at home,and for simple jobs get the sticky,for the annual produce all logs to the mechanic,then take them back ,when work finished.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are the property of the owner, but they belong with the aircraft. I can understand both, the owner and nechanics concerns. Mechanics have performed work and not been compensated and they have no recourse, so I can understand them wanting the logbook. I understand if the owner has trouble getting their logbook back, it's a pain. Whenever the aircraft is being operated or under maintenance the logbooks should be readily available for FAA inspection. The logbook belongs with the aircraft.
Click to expand...

They have recourse, it's a lien or small claims or higher up. Stealing someone's property is not the answer, ever
 
Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed. It's not stealing. You know right where they are. Pay your bill.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are the property of the owner, but they belong with the aircraft. I can understand both, the owner and nechanics concerns. Mechanics have performed work and not been compensated and they have no recourse, so I can understand them wanting the logbook. I understand if the owner has trouble getting their logbook back, it's a pain. Whenever the aircraft is being operated or under maintenance the logbooks should be readily available for FAA inspection. The logbook belongs with the aircraft.
Click to expand...

GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed. It's not stealing. You know right where they are. Pay your bill.
Click to expand...

I am paid up and I keep my check book with me so if I get handed an invoice I can pay right away. I learned very early in my career, those with balances paid in full tend to get better/quicker attention. My reasoning for asking was to see how mechanics preferred to handle logbooks. If I were a mechanic, I would want to minimize the time that I was responsible for someone else's logbooks. I do now understand why a mechanic would want originals vs copies. My mechanic has annualed my plane for the last 3 years so now that he knows the history, he may be open to having copies for AD compliance verification purposes.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed.
Click to expand...

First time I've ever heard that claim. The logbooks don't fly around with the airplane why would they be weighed with them?
 
The logbooks are not "part of the airplane". Anyone who flys around with their logbooks in the plane is a fool for obvious reasons. They must be confusing the POH with required mx records.

As an IA if someone were to come to me for an annual inspection and refused to let me have access to original copies of the logbooks I would tell them to kick rocks. I don't hold onto people's logbooks for extended periods. But I do expect to be able to have access to them alone in my office for as long as I need.

Some guys mentioned here that they wouldn't let a mechanic work unassisted on their plane either. Hard to imagine there are pilots so distrusting of their mechanics. It begs the question, why not get a new mechanic if you have so little faith? Having a solid and healthy relationship with their mechanic is something all owners should strive for.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GlennAB1 said:
Logbooks are part of the aircraft. They are in the aircraft when an aircraft is weighed. It's not stealing. You know right where they are. Pay your bill.
Click to expand...

Huh? Never seen that on a W&B sheet before, and no one who know anything keeps their planes logs in the plane.

As for paying bills, I do, however saying you're going to try to hold my property ransom is not going to work, that's like me paying both struts to be rebuilt, finding out only one was and taking the mechanics tool chest until he refunds my money for the strut, not kosher. This is what liens and courts are for.


Boomer said:
.....But I do expect to be able to have access to them alone in my office for as long as I need.....

Some guys mentioned here that they wouldn't let a mechanic work unassisted on their plane either. Hard to imagine there are pilots so distrusting of their mechanics. It begs the question, why not get a new mechanic if you have so little faith? Having a solid and healthy relationship with their mechanic is something all owners should strive for.
Click to expand...

Why would you need to be alone with the logs? I mean if you want to go over them as I'm changing the oil or taking panels off that's cool, but to demand that you hang on to my logs as long as you want and that you can keep them while I'm not there, kinda strange.

As for the trust thing, I agree 100%, that said trust is earned and not overnight. I've also always done owner assist annuals and have found the better APs are ok, if not encourage owner assist.

End of the day, it's my expensive airplane, it's my certificate and more importantly it's my life and the life of those close to me that's on the line, frankly if you trust a AP you just met with your life, without vetting his work you're a fool, pay your bill and start er' up and go is great for cars, not so much airplanes.

There are many areas where I will work with someone, the owner assist and control over my aircraft and logs, well that's just something that is ether cool with my AP or he's not my AP. So far it's worked well though :)
 
bnt83 said:
First time I've ever heard that claim. The logbooks don't fly around with the airplane why would they be weighed with them?
Click to expand...
The log book does fly around with the aircraft I work on and it (as well as some manuals and charts) are part of the aircraft empty weight.
 
GlennAB1 said:
What happens if you're away from home and the FAA ramp checks you and you don't have a logbook?
Click to expand...

There is no requirement to have your logs instantly available.
 
GlennAB1 said:
What happens if you're away from home and the FAA ramp checks you and you don't have a logbook?
Click to expand...

"I would be happy to produce the logbooks Mr. Fed. When I get home, who at my FSDO should I call to arrange a meeting?
 
GlennAB1 said:
What happens if you're away from home and the FAA ramp checks you and you don't have a logbook?
Click to expand...

absolutely nothing.

GlennAB1 said:
The log book does fly around with the aircraft I work on and it (as well as some manuals and charts) are part of the aircraft empty weight.
Click to expand...

I think you're talking about some part 135/121 planes which carry a smaller maintenance log book, for daily MX and MELs and whatnot.
 
GlennAB1 said:
The log book does fly around with the aircraft I work on and it (as well as some manuals and charts) are part of the aircraft empty weight.
Click to expand...
What aircraft do you work on? Do you work on any light GA stuff?

If we had to carry around all the logbooks on the airplanes I fly, they would comprise of half of the useful load of the airplane.
 
LOL, dont shoot me. If you are on a cross-country and the FAA ramp checks you with maintenance concerns, for example, you have hail damage or some other, that they want to see was approved and returned to service..... I'm just curious how that plays out.
 
Same way it would work out for a pilot log book question, if the fed wanted proof you were night current or had a tailwheel endorsement, he'd ask you to fax over a few pages of your log or come by the FSDO and let him look through your logs.


The only time my planes logs were in my plane was right after I bought it and was flying her home.

Only time my pilot log was in my plane was as a student pilot, or flying to a checkride.
 
James331 said:
I will let them go through my logs under my supervision, when I walk out of their office so do my logs.

Everything is backed up online and on local machines, if a AP needs to have a copy or go through it with me not being there I will provide a USB drive with every single piece of paper on the plane.

Nearly every pilot I know has some horror story of a trusted mechanic and a log book or similar.

The logs are worth like 20% of your planes value, when you have a plane that's in the 6 figure range, think of it as letting a AP keep $20,000 cash of YOURS for "safe keeping" I think not.

I don't even let anyone work on my plane unless I'm working along side of them, just too much money and risk at stake for me.
Click to expand...

Your statement makes me wonder what kind of A&P/IA would work with you as none of the reputable FBO around here would deal with you.
 
brien23 said:
Your statement makes me wonder what kind of A&P/IA would work with you as none of the reputable FBO around here would deal with you.
Click to expand...

Don't know, I've never hired a FBO to work on my plane, I hire the individual craftsmen, I call it quality control and being smart with my money.

It's not hard to find a APIA who's OK with owner assists and understands folks wanting to control their logs, many of the APIAs I've used don't want the responsibility/liability of holding onto your logbooks, God knows info were a mechanic I wouldn't.
 
James331 said:
Don't know, I've never hired a FBO to work on my plane, I hire the individual craftsmen, I call it quality control and being smart with my money.

It's not hard to find a APIA who's OK with owner assists and understands folks wanting to control their logs, many of the APIAs I've used don't want the responsibility/liability of holding onto your logbooks, God knows info were a mechanic I wouldn't.
Click to expand...



You must have a very understanding A&P/IA that would only be able to look at your logs wile you are their for a annual inspection.
 
Not really ..

I mean I'm in the hangar opening up the half a million panels, pulling plugs, greasing stuff and whatnot, he's over at the desk thumbing through the books to refresh his memory from the last time he saw the plane. After he's done looking in the books they go back in their case and back in the trunk of my car, day two we normally wrap things up and he prints up and signs the new annual stickers and they are added into the books, I pay him, we shoot the chit for a while and I'm off, never really considered it as asking for that much, or being out of the norm.

Guess we run in different aviation circles eh?
 
GlennAB1 said:
LOL, dont shoot me. If you are on a cross-country and the FAA ramp checks you with maintenance concerns, for example, you have hail damage or some other, that they want to see was approved and returned to service..... I'm just curious how that plays out.
Click to expand...
Same thing that happens if they want to see the pilot's log books--you will be given time to produce the required documents. There is zero expectation by the FAA that you will have anything in your possession or on the aircraft beyond what's required by the FARs. Don't believe me, then quote the reference that makes it a requirement.

Carrying mnx logs on the airplane is definitely uncommon in 91 ops and is considered a poor practice by everyone I know. If you do, I suggest that they be a copy of the originals.
 
Most guys who fear leaving logs with a mechanic are either new to ownership or have no relationship with their mechanic. My mechanic keeps my logs and has a key to my plane. If it needs attention I call or text him and it gets taken care of. I have no concerns about the security of my logs and if I did I'd make a digital copy for my own keeping. If you can't trust your mechanic you need to find one you can.
 
GlennAB1 said:
LOL, dont shoot me. If you are on a cross-country and the FAA ramp checks you with maintenance concerns, for example, you have hail damage or some other, that they want to see was approved and returned to service..... I'm just curious how that plays out.
Click to expand...
Same way as discussed. Offer to produce the logs later. An FAA inspector conducting a ramp check is not authorized to ground you, detain you or arrest you. So you go on your way.

Follow up? If you do and the logs are in order, no harm, no foul. If you don't, the FSDO might follow up with you. Logs not in order, there are likely to be consequences. After all, you did fly an unairworthy aircraft, maybe right in front of the ASI.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top