Aircraft and parts prices out of control

Bob Noel said:
Let's imagine you (the generic you) were going to develop, produce, market, support an E-AB. Would you pick one that has the same capabilies as a 172 or 182 of which there are thousands out there? or would you develop one that has more capability or is less expensive/difficult to maintain or ?
Click to expand...
Yup. Most 172s fly around with just the pilot aboard.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
When that was new, it was an off the shelf $20 automobile part. Now it's 20-30 years obsolete, and short supply. But, the important thing is that you get a starter solenoid with the correct part number. So, you are going to pay. That's the beauty of having a type certificate. The paperwork keeps you safe.
Click to expand...
That contactor is a 24-volt contactor. No cars use it.
 
Adam Weiss said:
RV-10
Click to expand...
Even if they were really comparable, right now, there are 3 RV10’s on Barnstormers, all listed for $300,000 or more. Two are sold and the other one is 13 years old. There are none on TAP.

If there’s a future for GA at all, there’s no way it rests on homebuilts.
 
Dan Thomas said:
In Canada a homebuilder does all his own maintenance. And the non-homebuilder that buys it from him also does all his own maintenance. Most responsible owners know their own limitations and we don't have endless homebuilt crashes. In fact, most aircraft-failure accidents seem to be a result of poor assembly of the airframe or fuel systems, and those tend to crash very early on. The rest of the accidents are due to the same reasons TC'd aircraft crash: carb ice and its mismanagement, continued VFR into IMC, fuel exhaustion, loss of control during takeoff or landing or unauthorized aerobatics or botched forced landings.
Click to expand...

Don't ya know? Builders want a cookie to separate them from those carpetbagging non-builder EAB owners. /TC

Thankfully, both in Canada O-M and US EAB, mx/repair allowances are extended to ALL owners regardless of bUiLdEr status. So until the regs change to further restrict non-builder allowances, they can go kick rocks.
 
Last edited:
If in order to fly an airplane, you have to build the fool thing first, no one will fly airplanes. No one. Worse yet, have we hit the situation where the widow of the buyer sues the builder of a homebuilt? I'd worry about this a lot if I had any kind of estate, and my guess is if you're building something like a Vans, which is an expensive kit to build, an estate you have.
 
A few years back, Vans was selling a “factory built” model of their RV12, and the price was not exorbitant compared to similar LSA’s. Are they still doing so?

I put factory built in quotes, since I think technically another company was involved with the build.
 
steingar said:
If in order to fly an airplane, you have to build the fool thing first, no one will fly airplanes. No one.
Click to expand...
Most owners don’t do the maintenance they’re currently allowed to do. A guy who doesn’t change the oil in his Mooney isn’t going to suddenly save a bunch of maintenance money when he buys an RV-10 Unicorn that someone else built.
 
Salty said:
If Vans aircraft numbers are to be believed this is literally true. If true, there are far more experimentals being born than certified in the piston GA category.
Click to expand...
I heard this many years ago, actually.
 
Adam Weiss said:
Who spends all the time and effort to learn to fly, then goes and buys a 172?
I mean, a 182 maybe. in either case, if you need 4 seats, an RV-10 blows them (and a Cirrus) out of the water.
Click to expand...

After spending all the time and effort to learn to fly, who spends all their leisure time for the next 2 years building an airplane instead of flying? The completion rate on kits is poor.
 
edessa said:
Yes, they are. https://www.flyrv12.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Their mention of E-LSA as an RV12 possibility is misleading by omission - any owner taking delivery of their S-LSA version could immediately convert it to E-LSA. They don’t mention that. Other manufacturers allow you to simply have the plane registered as an E-LSA on delivery, saving the new owner the hassle and expense of doing it themselves.

Here’s the misleading part:


I’ve Also Heard People Talk About “ELSA” – What ‘s the Difference?

We produce the RV-12iS as SLSA when we build them at the factory. Another option available to RV-12 purchasers is to build the airplane themselves, or to hire someone to produce their new light-sport RV-12iS with an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (ELSA) airworthiness certificate. There are a few differences in terms of what you can do with the airplanes, as well.

  • An ELSA aircraft can be modified and maintained by the owner, but cannot be rented to others.
  • The ELSA option provides the opportunity for the individual owner to perform their own maintenance and/or to add accessories and make modifications without having to obtain factory approval.
  • Modifications may only be made after the airworthiness certificate has been issued. To be eligible to get the original ELSA certificate, the aircraft must be assembled from complete kits as supplied by Van’s Aircraft and with strict adherence to our Kit Assembly Instructions.
 
Dan Thomas said:
What Cessna takes a $2200 starter contactor? I see that the starter contactor for an early '70s 172 is around $175, which is a big jump from the $35 I used to pay 12 or 15 years ago, but still a long way from $2200. Maybe this is for a 24-volt restart model?
Click to expand...
I replaced my 24 volt starter solenoid last year for my 1980 172N for less than 100 bucks. The solenoid came from Spruce.

I am enjoying the low cost to keep my 172 flying.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Most owners don’t do the maintenance they’re currently allowed to do. A guy who doesn’t change the oil in his Mooney isn’t going to suddenly save a bunch of maintenance money when he buys an RV-10 Unicorn that someone else built.
Click to expand...
And a special little call out for you. Anyone have to spend a half hour disassembling their car to change the oil? That's what I have to do with my Mooney. Royal pain in the six I've been doing once a year since I bought the fool thing. I'll bet you don't have to spend gobs of time taking apart the cowlings of your Vans to change the oil. And I bet you don't need safety wire, safety wire pliers and the knowing of how to use them to change the oil on your Miata. Oops, now I've done it.
 
steingar said:
And a special little call out for you. Anyone have to spend a half hour disassembling their car to change the oil? That's what I have to do with my Mooney. Royal pain in the six I've been doing once a year since I bought the fool thing. I'll bet you don't have to spend gobs of time taking apart the cowlings of your Vans to change the oil. And I bet you don't need safety wire, safety wire pliers and the knowing of how to use them to change the oil on your Miata. Oops, now I've done it.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, it’s a PITA to take my Vans cowling off, too. Not as easy as a car for sure. Plus, I have to take my wheel pants off to check my tire pressure.
 
What does insurance look like in CA for Owner Maintenance category planes?
 
steingar said:
And a special little call out for you. Anyone have to spend a half hour disassembling their car to change the oil? That's what I have to do with my Mooney. Royal pain in the six I've been doing once a year since I bought the fool thing. I'll bet you don't have to spend gobs of time taking apart the cowlings of your Vans to change the oil. And I bet you don't need safety wire, safety wire pliers and the knowing of how to use them to change the oil on your Miata. Oops, now I've done it.
Click to expand...

Change your oil once a year? You must not fly much.
 
steingar said:
And a special little call out for you. Anyone have to spend a half hour disassembling their car to change the oil? That's what I have to do with my Mooney. Royal pain in the six I've been doing once a year since I bought the fool thing. I'll bet you don't have to spend gobs of time taking apart the cowlings of your Vans to change the oil. And I bet you don't need safety wire, safety wire pliers and the knowing of how to use them to change the oil on your Miata. Oops, now I've done it.
Click to expand...

Removing a Van's cowl doesn't take 30 minutes, probably more like 10. Reinstalling one is probably a 15 minute job, and goes much better with 4 hands than 2.

Honestly, none of these things are designed for easy maintenance.
 
Captain Sweet T said:
this is way cool...anyone know a ballpark price?
Click to expand...
Well, Jesse has prices listed depending on what you want. Second, Charheep if I recall got Jesse's info from me in a previous thread on the price of an Arrow... So that means I've got 2 in my downline. 1 more and Jesse gives me a 10% discount on a Cherokee Six panel upgrade?
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Most owners don’t do the maintenance they’re currently allowed to do. A guy who doesn’t change the oil in his Mooney isn’t going to suddenly save a bunch of maintenance money when he buys an RV-10 Unicorn that someone else built.
Click to expand...

Says you. I'd expand on that topic, but I'm not into incriminating myself on a public forum. Suffice to say, the RV will be a real "coming out" party, so to speak.
 
You know, knowing how well RV-10s hold their value, I'd almost be tempted to finance a bare bones kit through one of these build assist outfits, snag a used -540 to bolt on and just say screw it. It's damn near saratoga money these days but I walk away with a repairman certificate for my troubles. *checks six make sure the wife ain't looking* :D
 
kyleb said:
That plus a couple of strategically placed 1" diameter holes in the wheel pants, and adding air is a 3 minute job.
Click to expand...
Awesome!
You answered the question I was going to ask about how to get access to the valve stem!
 
Bob Noel said:
Let's imagine you (the generic you) were going to develop, produce, market, support an E-AB. Would you pick one that has the same capabilies as a 172 or 182 of which there are thousands out there? or would you develop one that has more capability or is less expensive/difficult to maintain or ?
Click to expand...

Yes, yes I would. I would make it as close to as possible both the design and handling qualities as those. Why? The market is clearly speaking and it's saying that is what it wants.

Tecnam ain't stupid and there's a few LSA that are also following, too.
 
wheaties said:
Yes, yes I would. I would make it as close to as possible both the design and handling qualities as those. Why? The market is clearly speaking and it's saying that is what it wants.

Tecnam ain't stupid and there's a few LSA that are also following, too.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm.
The 172 is a fantastic trainer.
The 182 is a good all-around plane.
I have LOTS of hours in both.
They were great for the $100 burger or short trips as a member of a club.
For those that have a specific mission: STOL, XC, etc, there are better options.
If I were making a plane, I probably wouldn’t go after the saturated trainer market. I’d find a niche and fill it.
Cirrus is a great example of doing this in the certified space.
And Vans is one of many in E/AB.
 
BPM said:
ugh. This post bums me out. After 2 years of virtual shopping/tire-kicking I finally thought I'd decided on a Lance. Then I read this. Time to start re-researching Velocities...

Slowly but surely. One post at a time, I think I'm turning into hindsight2020. Without the writing skills of course.
Click to expand...
Well, piper doesn't hate you as much as Textron, if that makes you feel any better.
 
steingar said:
And a special little call out for you. Anyone have to spend a half hour disassembling their car to change the oil? That's what I have to do with my Mooney. Royal pain in the six I've been doing once a year since I bought the fool thing. I'll bet you don't have to spend gobs of time taking apart the cowlings of your Vans to change the oil. And I bet you don't need safety wire, safety wire pliers and the knowing of how to use them to change the oil on your Miata. Oops, now I've done it.
Click to expand...

My “modern” 201 takes 3 minutes to take the top cowling off, only 4 screws and about 18 camlocs. I have a quick drain so lower cowling stays in place. Would take less than hour if I didn’t have to wait for the oil to drain.
But I change my oil 4-6 times a year.
 
The C150 without oil filter takes 1 minute to push a tube on the quick drain, 10 minutes for hot oil to drain, and another 5 to pour the 5 quarts back in. No tools needed. I am glad there is not a lot of work involved as compared to others, so not all certified planes are completely bonkers.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
My “modern” 201 takes 3 minutes to take the top cowling off, only 4 screws and about 18 camlocs. I have a quick drain so lower cowling stays in place. Would take less than hour if I didn’t have to wait for the oil to drain.
But I change my oil 4-6 times a year.
Click to expand...
My Cherokee only took a few minutes as well. Old Mooney is a pain for this. Just illustrates a couple things. An aircraft can present special challenges, and most auto mechanics don't use safety wire or other specialty tools.
 
Its not lawyers. Its not liability. Patents for GA AC have long expired but the FAA then creates the PMA to put up a legal roadblock to cheap high quality parts.

We have the technology to machine a cylinder vs cast... but its not legal to install on an AC. Ditto for crankshafts etc. A shop can make the exact same part, to the exact same quality, but the PMA gets in the way.

Look at a 337 for a Major repair. You can get the FAA's blessing to repair a wing, but not sell a wing repair kit. Piper owners are feeling this now with the spar AD. There is nothing special about the repair, but Piper uses the FAA to for an overpriced kit that's basically copy/pasted from the 43.13-1B

As many have said, E/AB is the only viable way forward. Vans builders put 100's of NEW AC into the air every year. While Cirrus is also up there production wise, 99% of us cannot afford one.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top