Airbus A320 Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorDude
The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?

Ya gotta love the frogs. The plane crashed, what, 48 hrs ago and they already have a Prosecutor assigned taking charge!

Seems the French system is (Surprise!) a Bit different from the one in the US -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

excerpt: "The vast majority of cases are therefore investigated directly by law enforcement agencies (police, gendarmerie) under the supervision of the Office of Public Prosecutions (procureurs)."

So I think when we see 'Prosecutor' in this context, we should read 'Investigator'
 
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Palmpilot said:
This, from the guy who says he plans to take even more people with him if he ever commits suicide? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yes, the two subjects are actually pretty unrelated. Reasons and actions are not bonded pairs. Any situation can leave you with any of a multitude of actions that can either be considered cruel or compassionate depending on your perception of reality. Since I am not one prone to suicide through an understanding of my place and purpose in this universe and outside of it, if I ever do crack into that modality, I would likely consider the annihilation of mankind an act of compassion by resetting everyone's clock and sparing them the further suffering and damnation they are going to cause themselves.

You see, 'good and evil' are just matters of perception and intent, reality is completely subjective and open to be changed at any thought by any one, just like the pilot altered the realities of all the people on that flight.
 
Just thinking about how complicated cockpit doors have become and of incidents with crew being locked out, it seems to me that having a FA in the cockpit when one of the crew steps out would be so that if the door cannot be opened, someone inside can open it. The only crew member at the controls should never have to leave their seat to open the door.
 
Or just not have a locking protected door, realizing that post 9/11 passengers won't sit idly by and a handful of hijackers won't be able to overpower a few hundred passengers.

I know, I know I'm a nut. This security is totally worth the scenario that seems to have played out here..
 
archerdriver said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorDude
The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?

Ya gotta love the frogs. The plane crashed, what, 48 hrs ago and they already have a Prosecutor assigned taking charge!

Seems the French system is (Surprise!) a Bit different from the one in the US -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

excerpt: "The vast majority of cases are therefore investigated directly by law enforcement agencies (police, gendarmerie) under the supervision of the Office of Public Prosecutions (procureurs)."

So I think when we see 'Prosecutor' in this contect, we should read 'Investigator'
Click to expand...

Correct, it is just a mis understing caused by a difference in both systems and language. Even here, prosecutors also have the same basic duties to assure a proper investigation.
 
Here is how the doors work...

There is a switch on the panel for the door. 3 positions - Unlocked, Normal, Locked

Unlocked - Unlocked

Normal - Locked but the FA's can access it with a code/key. There is a buzzer in the cockpit and a delay before the door opens. Pilot can prevent door from opening by switching to...

Locked - Locks out the code/key entry. No way to open the door from outside
 
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dell30rb said:
Here is how the doors work...

There is a switch on the panel for the door. 3 positions - Unlocked, Normal, Locked

Unlocked - Unlocked

Normal - Locked but the FA's can access it with a code/key. There is a buzzer in the cockpit and a delay before the door opens

Locked - Locks out the code/key entry. No way to open the door from outside
Click to expand...

Yep, read like once you flick the switch to Lock momentarily (it springs back to Auto), it's locked out for the next 20 minutes unless someone hits it to Unlock.
 
archerdriver said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorDude
The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?

Ya gotta love the frogs. The plane crashed, what, 48 hrs ago and they already have a Prosecutor assigned taking charge!

Seems the French system is (Surprise!) a Bit different from the one in the US -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

excerpt: "The vast majority of cases are therefore investigated directly by law enforcement agencies (police, gendarmerie) under the supervision of the Office of Public Prosecutions (procureurs)."

So I think when we see 'Prosecutor' in this context, we should read 'Investigator'
Click to expand...


That's because they absolutely don't want there to be even the remotest hint of this being some kind of an Airbus issue !
 
Stories popping up on twitter that the first officer was about to be fired for some sort of sexual misconduct. Not sure of the validity of the story yet.
 
cirrusmx said:
I would say a 300 hr pilot with solid cross country and weather flying experience would make a good FO on a regional. It all depends on the quality of hours.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt a 300hr pilot can be a good autopilot, at least for straight and level. My primary concern is for when he's flying solo (e.g. when the captain is on nature break, or incapacitated). My secondary concern (and the one that fits in this case) is that in 300hrs you don't really know a person's true personality. So OK for a light GA plane with wife and kids, but to solo an airliner with 150 souls in back?
 
cirrusmx said:
I would say a 300 hr pilot with solid cross country and weather flying experience would make a good FO on a regional. It all depends on the quality of hours.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there's no way to know about the "Quality" issue in our present system. So instead we insist upon a high amount of "Exposure".
 
Interesting data from the squitter showing deliberate descent.
We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more data apart from the regular position/altitude data.
These are the decoded ModeS (Downlink Format 20) frames which contain replies to interrogating radar requests (Upling Format 20).

09:30:48Z.651 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:48Z.936 T,3c6618,43.115341,5.671181,38000,GWI18G
09:30:49Z.496 T,3c6618,43.116028,5.671692,38000,GWI18G
09:30:50Z.076 T,3c6618,43.117381,5.673065,38000,GWI18G
09:30:50Z.111 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:50Z.553 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:50Z.619 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:50Z.626 T,3c6618,43.118408,5.673736,38000,GWI18G
09:30:51Z.127 T,3c6618,43.119095,5.674247,38000,GWI18G
09:30:51Z.636 T,3c6618,43.120453,5.675092,38000,GWI18G
09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:55Z.453 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:55Z.636 T,3c6618,43.128367,5.681109,38025,GWI18G
09:30:56Z.186 T,3c6618,43.129211,5.681656,38025,GWI18G
09:30:56Z.707 T,3c6618,43.129898,5.682167,38000,GWI18G
09:30:57Z.267 T,3c6618,43.131626,5.683201,38000,GWI18G
09:30:57Z.312 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:57Z.836 T,3c6618,43.132507,5.684020,38000,GWI18G
09:30:58Z.050 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:58Z.296 T,3c6618,43.133011,5.684403,38000,GWI18G
09:30:58Z.767 T,3c6618,43.134559,5.685425,38000,GWI18G
09:30:59Z.216 T,3c6618,43.135397,5.685948,38000,GWI18G
09:30:59Z.746 T,3c6618,43.136261,5.686575,38000,GWI18G
09:30:59Z.988 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:00Z.146 T,3c6618,43.137451,5.687149,38000,GWI18G
09:31:00Z.165 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:00Z.676 T,3c6618,43.137817,5.687660,38000,GWI18G
09:31:01Z.676 T,3c6618,43.139866,5.689022,38000,GWI18G
09:31:02Z.027 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:02Z.238 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:02Z.496 T,3c6618,43.141402,5.690199,38000,GWI18G
09:31:03Z.030 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:03Z.456 T,3c6618,43.143494,5.691429,38000,GWI18G
09:31:04Z.376 T,3c6618,43.145731,5.692945,37975,GWI18G
09:31:04Z.943 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:05Z.346 T,3c6618,43.147430,5.693984,37975,GWI18G
09:31:05Z.558 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:05Z.993 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:06Z.466 T,3c6618,43.149828,5.695365,37975,GWI18G
09:31:07Z.164 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:07Z.346 T,3c6618,43.151367,5.696539,37950,GWI18G
09:31:08Z.256 T,3c6618,43.153427,5.697752,37950,GWI18G
09:31:08Z.776 T,3c6618,43.154111,5.698308,37925,GWI18G
09:31:09Z.276 T,3c6618,43.154995,5.698962,37925,GWI18G
09:31:09Z.712 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:09Z.960 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:10Z.326 T,3c6618,43.157364,5.700307,37925,GWI18G
09:31:11Z.312 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:11Z.467 T,3c6618,43.159607,5.701713,37900,GWI18G
09:31:11Z.876 T,3c6618,43.160660,5.702415,37900,GWI18G
09:31:12Z.102 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:12Z.386 T,3c6618,43.161512,5.702885,37875,GWI18G
09:31:12Z.846 T,3c6618,43.162211,5.703408,37875,GWI18G
09:31:13Z.316 T,3c6618,43.163049,5.704128,37875,GWI18G
09:31:13Z.896 T,3c6618,43.164597,5.704970,37875,GWI18G
09:31:14Z.401 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:14Z.493 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:15Z.536 T,3c6618,43.168030,5.707201,37825,GWI18G
09:31:16Z.416 T,3c6618,43.169380,5.707921,37825,GWI18G
09:31:17Z.028 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:17Z.266 T,3c6618,43.171288,5.709294,37800,GWI18G
09:31:18Z.196 T,3c6618,43.173019,5.710144,37775,GWI18G
09:31:19Z.166 T,3c6618,43.175385,5.711648,37750,GWI18G
09:31:19Z.262 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:31:20Z.176 T,3c6618,43.177277,5.712891,37725,GWI18G
09:31:21Z.216 T,3c6618,43.179202,5.714068,37700,GWI18G

Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting.
The reason why the selected altitude is 96ft is that least significant bit for altitude setting equals 16 ft, and we suspect that you can’t set autopilot to 0000 altitude, so the minimum would be 100ft down rounded to 96ft in binary representation in BDS40h register.
Any comments or thoughts about this?

Playback: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/fl...u9525/#5d42675

This data has also been handled over to BEA 2 days ago.
Click to expand...
 
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cirrusmx said:
I would say a 300 hr pilot with solid cross country and weather flying experience would make a good FO on a regional. It all depends on the quality of hours.
Click to expand...

I've always thought that we need two training systems from scratch, and we kinda do with 141, but we don't use it well. Should have one system for GA type flying, and one system that starts you out day one as a crew with someone else. It's really two different worlds of thought process to achieve the same result. You don't think and function the same way in a crew aircraft operating in air carrier service as you do in single pilot plane flying a GA mission.
 
FastEddieB said:
Whether you are serious or joking, this is just sick.
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I'm trying to demonstrate the variable in human perception. You can't understand what is in another person's thoughts unless you understand their perception of reality, get it? Any action can be caused by multiple reasons, the value of which is subjective to the individual's perception of reality.

As I said, I am not one prone to suicide due to my perception and understanding of reality, and everyone has their own whether they are taking it from a book or from their imagination. My perception is one where I am part of a cohesive whole with a roll to fill, and if I quit on my own, I have nowhere to go, so I sit out of phase forever. If I hang around until I end up dead, then I get reassigned. Since I enjoy myself, and lead a reasonably blessed life, I am not a candidate for suicidal acts. Even if I have suicidal considerations, I wouldn't act on them out of shear curiosity of what I'm in for next, because that will be my final score on how well I worked out this time. People will act on their perception of reality. If their perception of reality is that they are an accident of chaos alone in this life with no reason for existence, then a person has absolutely no reason not to end their perceived suffering.
 
Henning said:
Nope, if I'm committing suicide, God is in no laughing mood, I'd be doing the people a favor with a quick painless death while screwing myself.
Click to expand...

Right, because I'm sure they'd be super thankful afterwards that you saved the vast majority of them from the terrible torture of inevitably one day dying in their sleep.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Right, because I'm sure they'd be super thankful afterwards that you saved the vast majority of them from the terrible torture of inevitably one day dying in their sleep.
Click to expand...

It depends on what the person believes the immediate future is, if they are convinced that the immediate future is horrible, they can believe exactly that. FMD, don't any of you ever think about things from more than one perspective?:dunno: Want a great perspective on this, volunteer on a suicide hotline or talk to a schizophrenic in full delusion for a couple of hours. That may wake you up.
 
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Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish act. Murder/suicide is probably the ultimate psychopathic act. Anyone who intimates suicide needs to be taken seriously. Anyone who intimates murder/suicide needs to be taken seriously and should seek help, it's not a normal thing.
 
It just seems incredibly arrogant to me to be so certain of one's own perception of others' supposed suffering that one would be willing and determined to unilaterally end others' lives. Massacre is not a compassionate act. It's an act of arrogance.
 
PaulS said:
Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish act. Murder/suicide is probably the ultimate psychopathic act. Anyone who intimates suicide needs to be taken seriously. Anyone who intimates murder/suicide needs to be taken seriously and should seek help, it's not a normal thing.
Click to expand...

Correct, we just don't have a system in place to monitor for the precursors. People in our society can slowly go completely insane with nobody doing anything positive to intervene, in fact, the worse they get, the more they are shunned and ignored, and the deeper the psychopathy becomes. Then we act surprised when they snap. After the fact there are always dozens of people stating, "Yeah, they were always kinda 'off' I always suspected something like this would happen." Well WTF, why didn't you DO something back then?:dunno:

The answer is we don't have a system in place that allows them to do anything about it. Mental illness is humanity's "dirty little secret" and we ignore it, even though every family has mentally ill people in it. We are embarrassed by them, and what the cultural inferences are, even if they do come from the misperceptions we create in the process.
 
Henning said:
Correct, we just don't have a system in place to monitor for the precursors. People in our society can slowly go completely insane with nobody doing anything positive to intervene, in fact, the worse they get, the more they are shunned and ignored, and the deeper the psychopathy becomes. Then we act surprised when they snap. After the fact there are always dozens of people stating, "Yeah, they were always kinda 'off' I always suspected something like this would happen." Well WTF, why didn't you DO something back then?:dunno:

The answer is we don't have a system in place that allows them to do anything about it. Mental illness is humanity's "dirty little secret" and we ignore it, even though every family has mentally ill people in it. We are embarrassed by them, and what the cultural inferences are, even if they do come from the misperceptions we create in the process.
Click to expand...

I personally know somebody who committed a double murder suicide. Granted, I had not seen the individual in about 15 years before it happened, and at that point he had moved across the country from me and we only somewhat kept in contact via social media. Before that, our parents had been friends when we were infants through high school, so 18 plus years. I was unbelievably shocked when I heard about it. He was always a little bit of a strange guy, but never an indication he would do something like that. Again, I had not seen him in years though when it happened, and that makes me sound like the stupid relative they always put on TV when they report these things.

But, you do also learn about things later, and that there were many other factors. Here, I know that his dad was very sick, and in and out of the hospital. He had just broken up with a girl after 8 years, and between property and time, he was considered married by common law rules. Then a judge ordered him to allow the girl to continue living in the same house, because the judge decided it was co-owned and both had rights to it. I have no idea what was actually on the title to the property. A hearing was either scheduled in the next couple days (or had just occurred) that would decide how assets were to be divided. That house is where the event took place.

I can tell you it is still hard to reconcile the school friend, with the person that would do this. However, I can never forgive him for the act. So yes, these things can get very complex, and understanding someone in that state is near impossible.
 
Henning said:
Correct, we just don't have a system in place to monitor for the precursors. People in our society can slowly go completely insane with nobody doing anything positive to intervene, in fact, the worse they get, the more they are shunned and ignored, and the deeper the psychopathy becomes. Then we act surprised when they snap. After the fact there are always dozens of people stating, "Yeah, they were always kinda 'off' I always suspected something like this would happen." Well WTF, why didn't you DO something back then?:dunno:

The answer is we don't have a system in place that allows them to do anything about it. Mental illness is humanity's "dirty little secret" and we ignore it, even though every family has mentally ill people in it. We are embarrassed by them, and what the cultural inferences are, even if they do come from the misperceptions we create in the process.
Click to expand...

Right, but on one hand you're talking about mental health issues and the general populace, and on the other you're talking about it and pilots. As we know though pilots aren't a very good sample of a cross section of society because of all of the training and testing that we undergo.

Unfortunately this will probably get lost on everyone except us as the media and everyone screams for pilots to undergo more mental evals. because of 5 or 6 suicide pilots over 100 million (or more) flight hours.
 
My list of people I probably shouldn't fly with just went up by one.:wink2:
 
PaulS said:
Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish act.
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I've always considered this an extremely ridiculous statement. I won't debate why, I just do.

But...I think it's imperative that we find out the FO's complete background and quickly! Without that background we can't determine the root cause because, as we all know:

* if he was a white Christian boy then he was just having a bad day.

* if he was a brown Muslim boy then he was a terrorist.

* and, heaven forbid, if he was a black boy then he was a gangsta thug.

Right now it just appears to be someone having a bad day.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Right, but on one hand you're talking about mental health issues and the general populace, and on the other you're talking about it and pilots. As we know though pilots aren't a very good sample of a cross section of society because of all of the training and testing that we undergo.

Unfortunately this will probably get lost on everyone except us as the media and everyone screams for pilots to undergo more mental evals. because of 5 or 6 suicide pilots over 100 million (or more) flight hours.
Click to expand...

The pilot part makes the situation worse indeed. Now there is not only social stigma involved in seeking some help, now their livelihood is threatened as well. The problem at the root however is the same. If you feel like you have a heart issue, the FAA has simple procedures to get your medical back. Mental issues are next to impossible to certify even third class. The heart of the problem is that we as a society don't want to think about it because we are afraid of everything it represents.

The fix is simple, 'normalize' the issue in society and treat early.
 
timwinters said:
I've always considered this an extremely ridiculous statement. I won't debate why, I just do.

But...I think it's imperative that we find out the FO's complete background and quickly! Without that background we can't determine the root cause because, as we all know:

* if he was a white Christian boy then he was just having a bad day.

* if he was a brown Muslim boy then he was a terrorist.

* and, heaven forbid, if he was a black boy then he was a gangsta thug.

Right now it just appears to be someone having a bad day.
Click to expand...

There's already rumors floating on FB that he recently embraced Islam, so what does that make a white Muslim? I don't disagree with you though.

What is really scary to most people about mental illness is that everybody has these types of thoughts. What they don't understand is why they have them, so when they see someone exhibiting signs of mental illness, they don't want to look at me t because they are afraid they to may go there. The reason everyone has these thoughts is so they can learn what it's like and apply compassion when dealing with someone that is exhibiting them and help.

By not understanding our own nature, we lack the understanding of what to do with the information we receive. This is where both religion and science have failed at their rolls in humanity.
 
WoooPigSooie said:
Right, but on one hand you're talking about mental health issues and the general populace, and on the other you're talking about it and pilots. As we know though pilots aren't a very good sample of a cross section of society because of all of the training and testing that we undergo.
.
Click to expand...
Six months of trade school? Lots of odd pilots out there, most of them actually. Normal people get normal cubicle jobs and buy boats and go skiing for 'adventure.';) Anyway my money is on Mr. Suicide being a failure with the ladies.
 
FastEddieB said:
I take it you would not see it as him doing you a favor "with a quick painless death"?

He has shown himself to be far sicker than I had assumed.

And ignore-worthy.

Again.
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I answered a lot of late night phone calls from seriously crazy people growing up, my dad was clinical director of psychiatry for the State of Missouri for 20 years, I had a phone in my room, he didn't, and our number was listed.

If listening to others who think differently than I do and applying some compassion to understand the thought processes and the differences in logic that come about due to it makes me "sick", than I will be a sick mother ****er till the day I die and proud of it.

BTW, there is the distinct possibility that I consider you sick as well. Unlike you though, I don't think anyone deserves to be ignored. That thinking is what I believe to be sick, also add those that gain from other's misery, that's sick as ****.

So ignore if you want, please, I really don't care what your sick ass thinks about a thing I say.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Six months of trade school? Lots of odd pilots out there, most of them actually. Normal people get normal cubicle jobs and buy boats and go skiing for 'adventure.';) Anyway my money is on Mr. Suicide being a failure with the ladies.
Click to expand...

Whoa, look who's back
 
ClimbnSink said:
Six months of trade school? Lots of odd pilots out there, most of them actually. Normal people get normal cubicle jobs and buy boats and go skiing for 'adventure.';) Anyway my money is on Mr. Suicide being a failure with the ladies.
Click to expand...

Most common reason for suicide there is is rejection in the mating process.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Six months of trade school? Lots of odd pilots out there, most of them actually. Normal people get normal cubicle jobs and buy boats and go skiing for 'adventure.';) Anyway my money is on Mr. Suicide being a failure with the ladies.
Click to expand...

Well, I had the cube job, I got the boat, and my failure with the ladies is a thing of legend. I should have been dead, dead, dead by my own hand long ago.

Wondering if it's a combo of things that just overwhelmed. Maybe a heartbreak is one component, but it all added up.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I had the cube job, I got the boat, and my failure with the ladies is a thing of legend. I should have been dead, dead, dead by my own hand long ago.

Wondering if it's a combo of things that just overwhelmed. Maybe a heartbreak is one component, but it all added up.
Click to expand...

Just like anything else, there are always multiple factors coupling together before you get a truly tragic result.
 
PaulS said:
Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish act. ........
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I respectfully disagree...

It is a very personal thing and that decision should be left to the individual..

I will say right up front..... Taking others out is WRONG..... PERIOD,,,,

But life is a limited length.. When quality of life passes the point of enjoyment then suicide is an option.. And I want to emphasize the word OPTION.....

Small mental disorders can be treated. Larger ones need to be identified by close friends and hopefully they will intervene......

Terminal diseases will happen to ALL of us and a decision will need to be made. With proper planning, honest medical diagnosis and a clear mind, a person should have the ability to STOP the suffering...

Dr Jack Kevorkian had a viable OPTION for those kinds of people who didn't know the right way to "check out"... His service is needed thousands of times every day in this country alone , but he was too flambouyant and that sunk his ship.... Just save up some pain meds, take them all when you get to the point of no return and go to sleep...

I don't get the push back on assisted suicide.... I would like to think every one of us would put our pets down when they are suffering....

What is the difference with humans ..:dunno::dunno::confused::confused:
 
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