Airbus A320 Down

RotorDude said:
The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?
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Ya gotta love the frogs. The plane crashed, what, 48 hrs ago and they already have a Prosecutor assigned taking charge!
 
Kritchlow said:
Rotor, as you know, there is also a way to reject that entry.

For those who may not know, In the US when one crew leaves the cockpit we must have a flight attendant in the cockpit with us. Not sure what the German rules are. Even so, not sure that will prevent any mischief.
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Anyone know where exactly this is stipulated in the FARs? (To save me hours sifting through page upon page, though I presume it would be hidden in Part 91).

UPDATE: Darn if I didn't find it right away:

§91.105 Flight crewmembers at stations.
(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each required flight crewmember shall—

(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs...

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-231, 57 FR 42671, Sept. 15, 1992]
 
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Sluggo63 said:
I read that. I've heard CVR's before, as we all have. I've never heard breathing. I didn't think the CAMs would have enough fidelity to pick that up. If you were wearing an O2 mask, you would definitely hear someone breathing through he mask.

Did he mean normal rate? Sound?

I'm curious if the distinctive hiss-woosh of a quick donning mask was heard when the Captain left his seat.

During the hypoxia training, I don't remember breathing more rapidly or heavily. If anything I would breathe slower and deeper.

But again, I think my theory is as far fetched as you guys do.
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You'd have to account for him setting the door switch to "lock" and not "normal", refusing to let the captain in, and diving the plane along a straight path. The French seem convinced in their interpretation of the CVR data, so I would tend to trust them.
 
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romacpher said:
Anyone know where exactly this is stipulated in the FARs? (To save me hours sifting through page upon page, though I presume it would be hidden in Part 91).

UPDATE: Darn if I didn't find it right away:

§91.105 Flight crewmembers at stations.
(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each required flight crewmember shall—

(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs...

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-231, 57 FR 42671, Sept. 15, 1992]
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FAA req not done by all ICAO/IATA airlines in Europe apparently per a communication I receieved this morning...this procedure should be done by all carriers period.
 
RotorDude said:
You'd have to account for him setting the door switch to "lock" and not "normal", and refusing to let the captain in.
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Wooohooo, buzzing the mountains is FUN! Oh look, that silly captain wants back in, it would be funny to lock him out. HAHAHAHhahhahaha.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I read that. I've heard CVR's before, as we all have. I've never heard breathing. I didn't think the CAMs would have enough fidelity to pick that up. If you were wearing an O2 mask, you would definitely hear someone breathing through he mask.

Did he mean normal rate? Sound?

I'm curious if the distinctive hiss-woosh of a quick donning mask was heard when the Captain left his seat.

During the hypoxia training, I don't remember breathing more rapidly or heavily. If anything I would breathe slower and deeper.

But again, I think my theory is as far fetched as you guys do.
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From 2013 posts on pprune it appears the 320 uses bottled oxygen for pilot/FO supply.

Contaminated O2 sounds more likely to me than a jammed door/incompetent FO. I'd tend to think suicide is equally likely though because of the locked door...
 
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Bill Jennings said:
Wooohooo, buzzing the mountains is FUN! Oh look, that silly captain wants back in, it would be funny to lock him out. HAHAHAHhahhahaha.
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All without any change from "normal" breathing rate?
 
JasonM said:
Maybe they need to start having cameras in the cockpit.
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Why? How would that have helped save these people?

Or are you just talking about having it for the investigation after the accident?
 
RotorDude said:
All without any change from "normal" breathing rate?
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Ok, point RotorDude. No matter the reason, this isn't going to play out well, and I'm sure there will be some re-thinking of the cockpit door lock strategy.
 
I am surprised a non-ATP pilot would be allowed to fly solo (even for a few minutes) an airliner with 150 passengers.
 
RotorDude said:
I am surprised a non-ATP pilot would be allowed to fly solo (even for a few minutes) an airliner with 150 passengers.
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Most likely completely irrelevant to what happened.
 
jesse said:
Most likely completely irrelevant to what happened.
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With more than 1500 flight hours, I would think the chances for hidden psychological issues to be exposed are higher. This guy had 630 hrs or so.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Ok... I know there's all the speculation about the German Wings flight, and I'm with you all. It's weird. It doesn't look good, and I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

But, if we're all throwing out our far fetched scenarios, and we want to think the best of Andreas Lubitz, that he wasn't a terrorist; he wasn't on a murder-suicide mission... I''ll put my crazy "what if" out there.

This is based on my limited knowledge of human physiology and zero knowledge of A320 systems.

As an Air Force guy, we have to go to the Altitude Chamber every 5 years. It's a whole-day pain in the butt, culminating in a chamber "flight" where you and 12 of your new best friends sit in a steel box and breathe each other's gasses while validating your personal hypoxia symptoms. In reality, it's really good training.

The thing about altitude chambers is that they're expensive, so in an effort to save money, the Air Force invented the ROBD (Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device). It's basically an oxygen mask that causes you to go hypoxic. Great idea... same effect... saves money.

Ok, so now we have the German Wings flight level at FL380 and the captain goes out to use the facilities and grab a cup of coffee. What does F/O Lubitz do? What any good First Officer does when he's in the seat when the other guy gets out and the plane is above FL250 (FAA rules)? He dutifully puts on his O2 mask.

What if he was getting bad air? I don't know if the A320 has GOX or O2 generators, but what if what he was breathing through the mask was making him hypoxic? We know it's happened before with the F-22 and their infamous OBOGS system.

The one thing I've learned from my half-dozen or so chamber flights is that everybody reacts to being hypoxic differently. I get dumb... well, dumber, some people get giddy. I've seen aviators being told to put their mask on "or they'll die" just give the instructor a smile and a big thumbs-up. I even had one ride where they had to bring the chamber down because someone was getting violent.

Maybe FO Lubitz just wanted to touch buttons. Maybe fly the plane a little; get a closer look at those pretty mountains. Who knows? There he was, hypoxic and sightseeing oblivious to the captain banging on the door and the screams of the passengers.

Of course, there are plenty of holes in that theory, the first being that he had to also keep denying entry to the captain who I'm sure was trying to electronically override the door lock. But if you've ever been a designated driver for your college buddies, you know how funny it is to drunks to do stupid stuff like try to get out of cars that are moving 60 mph down a freeway or throwing a full Slurpie at a cop. Not funny sober, hilarious when drunk.

I still think the simplest solution is still the most likely outcome, but hey, we're all throwing out our crazy theories.
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Occam is spinning in his grave...
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't think suicide can be ruled out, although I have trouble understanding the motivation for taking an airliner full of passengers with him if it wasn't terrorism.
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Oh, I can, no worries. If I ever commit suicide, I plan to take way more.
 
RotorAndWing said:
What would that have solved in this situation? Would it had prevented it?
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Solved?: It "may" have proved something different happened. What if this guy wasn't at fault? His family will take a beating for it. could be your family.

Prevented?: Possibly. If he had intentions of doing something to benefit his family with life insurance or something and he knew it would be on camera.


Sluggo63 said:
Why? How would that have helped save these people?

Or are you just talking about having it for the investigation after the accident?
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Possibly both??


I can also understand the other side of that if your a commercial pilot not wanting your boss watching over your shoulder.

I fly with a camera running most of the time. Its a good feeling to have it there in the event something out of my control happens.
 
RotorAndWing said:
A single pitot failure will not drive it to direct law. :nonod:
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No worries, that was just what got me thinking back then the way everyone always yammers on about the Airbus having no manual reversion and the plane can lock the pilot out blah blah, that a pilot could take control by popping a breaker or two that would force the system to revert to a lower law. I was just wondering if that could have been the way the speed limiter could get violated?
 
RotorDude said:
I am surprised a non-ATP pilot would be allowed to fly solo (even for a few minutes) an airliner with 150 passengers.
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RotorDude said:
With more than 1500 flight hours, I would think the chances for hidden psychological issues to be exposed are higher. This guy had 630 hrs or so.
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I've flown with FO's and CRP's that had 300 hours. :rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Good question....

R&W.... Van Delay... Greg... Anyone want to chime in ???
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I think it was mandatory when Wireless Local Area Networks (WLAN) were first introduced. Now I believe it is optional. However, the >100 or so I've been involved with installed in transport category aircraft 99% of them have a WLAN master switch in the cockpit.

Depending on how the router is bussed, it still may be deactivated from the cockpit even without a dedicated WLAN on/off switch. Pretty sure most have a dedicated breaker somewhere in a nonessential buss.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I have no clue. None of us do. But it is certainly a possibility.

When you are dealing with a disaster of this magnitude, don't limit yourself to the usual suspects.
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Mental instability is the only subject, the only question is the detail and motivation whether from falling in with ISIS to finding a cheating wife or anything else.

Psychologically humans are rather fragile and we willfully ignore that fact as a society. It causes us a lot of problems.
 
Here's a scenario which I'm not expecting an answer for, but seems to leave a process oversight gap.

People with bad intent want to get in the cockpit. Pilot(s), set the door to the 'lock' mode, so that the keypad on the outside is disabled, and we have the Germanwings situation.

Bad people are now locked out, and no way to access the flight deck. But wait - in the event of rapid decompression, the door will override and open toward the flight deck. Bad person takes his 17Lb bowling ball that he legally brought on board, and smashes out a cabin window decompressing the plane. Door switch is in 'Lock' position. Does it override and open, or not? hmmmmmmm :nono:
 
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Henning said:
Mental instability is the only subject, the only question is the detail and motivation whether from falling in with ISIS to finding a cheating wife or anything else.

Psychologically humans are rather fragile and we willfully ignore that fact as a society. It causes us a lot of problems.
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Isn't that required in Germany?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Perhaps. Or another theory is the sleepers are starting. Think about it. Striking from within. Strike enough fear with the flying public and airline revenues drop, which disrupts economics. Similarities here with a couple of recent accidents.

Just an opinion.
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Maybe. But no group took "credit" for the crash as far as I know. Neither was FO Lubitz recorded muttering any insane babblings during descent such as would be expected from someone committing a mass murder / suicide for political and/or religious reasons.

That's assuming that the French are telling the truth about the CVR, of course. I suppose a cover-up for political reasons would be in the realm of possibility, but I think it's pretty unlikely considering the international nature of the tragedy and investigation.

Rich
 
docmirror said:
Here's a scenario which I'm not expecting an answer for, but seems to leave a process oversight gap.

People with bad intent want to get in the cockpit. Pilot(s), set the door to the 'lock' mode, so that the keypad on the outside is disabled, and we have the Germanair situation.

Bad people are now locked out, and no way to access the flight deck. But wait - in the event of rapid decompression, the door will override and open toward the flight deck. Bad person takes his 17Lb bowling ball that he legally brought on board, and smashes out a cabin window decompressing the plane. Door switch is in 'Lock' position. Does it override and open, or not? hmmmmmmm :nono:
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Wouldn't matter. The bad person will be sucked out the window, I saw it in a movie.
 
RJM62 said:
Terrorism is a possibility, but there are other reasons why a person might go off the deep edge besides politico-religious extremism. It would be difficult for a normal person to understand such a person's reasoning regardless of how or why they arrived there.

Rich
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That is a sad statement, it implies that most people lack true compassion.
 
Henning said:
That is a sad statement, it implies that most people lack true compassion.
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It is sometimes hard for people to believe if they haven't walked a mile in those shoes.
 
Another thoughts. Something HUGE would have to keep him focused for 8 whole minutes to commit suicide without chickening out. 30 seconds or so I could see. But to maintain that you are going to die and take all the lives with you for 8 solid minutes without changing your mind is a long time.
 
Henning said:
That is a sad statement, it implies that most people lack true compassion.
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Not really. You can relate to the sadness of someone's situation without necessarily being able to follow the tortuous reasoning by which they came to the conclusion that a mass murder / suicide was a fine and dandy idea.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Maybe. But no group took "credit" for the crash as far as I know. Neither was FO Lubitz recorded muttering any insane babblings during descent such as would be expected from someone committing a mass murder / suicide for political and/or religious reasons.

That's assuming that the French are telling the truth about the CVR, of course. I suppose a cover-up for political reasons would be in the realm of possibility, but I think it's pretty unlikely considering the international nature of the tragedy and investigation.

Rich
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In my theory I don't see need for "credit" to anyone. Just the fact that fear is out there and effecting air travel is reason enough. Who knows, maybe after several more the culprits will reveal. :dunno:

As far as governments, I can see a real reason to try to contain this. Notice how quiet the Air Asia crash and Malaysian crash have gone? :dunno:
 
RJM62 said:
I suppose a cover-up for political reasons would be in the realm of possibility, but I think it's pretty unlikely considering the international nature of the tragedy and investigation.

Rich
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Wouldn't that make it more likely?
 
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RotorAndWing said:
In my theory I don't see need for "credit" to anyone. Just the fact that fear is out there and effecting air travel is reason enough. Who knows, maybe after several more the culprits will reveal. :dunno:

As far as governments, I can see a real reason to try to contain this. Notice how quiet the Air Asia crash and Malaysian crash have gone? :dunno:
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Oh, I don't doubt that they have reasons why they might want to cover something up. I just have doubts whether they could pull it off.

Rich
 
Clark1961 said:
From 2013 posts on pprune it appears the 320 uses bottled oxygen for pilot/FO supply.

Contaminated O2 sounds more likely to me than a jammed door/incompetent FO. I'd tend to think suicide is equally likely though because of the locked door...
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Also he had to program the FMS.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Ok, point RotorDude. No matter the reason, this isn't going to play out well, and I'm sure there will be some re-thinking of the cockpit door lock strategy.
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Why? Has the fear of suicidal pilots now eclipsed the fear of terrorist cabin invasion?
 
charheep said:
But to maintain that you are going to die and take all the lives with you for 8 solid minutes without changing your mind is a long time.
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How long did the 911 hijackers fly between storming the cockpit and impact?
 
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