Airbus A320 Down

Palmpilot said:
It probably doesn't matter to us, but it might matter to investigators if they need to find out whether one of the pilots has something in their history that would give a clue.
Click to expand...

To clarify, it doesn't matter if it was the CA or FO. It DOES matter if the one in the cockpit was a jihad wack job terrorist.

Sorry for any confusion.
 
Henning said:
What difference will it make? If it was a terrorist, well, like the FBI on 9/11, day late and dollar short. It's not like they will learn anything useful.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the investigators' goal should be to find out what happened and why, without prejudging whether there is anything that can or should be done about it.
 
Kritchlow said:
To clarify, it doesn't matter if it was the CA or FO. It DOES matter if the one in the cockpit was a jihad wack job terrorist.

Sorry for any confusion.
Click to expand...

Why?:dunno: What difference does it make at this point, they should have figured that out before hiring him. The program is complete IF that is even a factor which I highly doubt. Terrorism is a boozy man, this is a financial war.
 
Henning said:
Why?:dunno: What difference does it make at this point, they should have figured that out before hiring him. The program is complete IF that is even a factor which I highly doubt. Terrorism is a boozy man, this is a financial war.
Click to expand...

Henning, I absolutely agree that airline pre screening should catch the bad guys. Problem is, some may convert after they are hired. I really don't know if 121 carriers (or foreign equivalent) monitor that after the fact. If not, they should.
 
Henning said:
...What difference does it make at this point, they should have figured that out before hiring him...
Click to expand...

If they're not doing a good enough job of figuring that out, they're not likely to get better at it if they don't find out that that's the problem.
 
Kritchlow said:
Henning, I absolutely agree that airline pre screening should catch the bad guys. Problem is, some may convert after they are hired. I really don't know if 121 carriers (or foreign equivalent) monitor that after the fact. If not, they should.
Click to expand...

That's because you can't effectively monitor for it. That requires mind reading or overt evidence. As rare as these event are, it would be more worthwhile to add to screening for ability to maintain calm function in the face of death, or to disconnect and watch it go down like a movie?
 
Henning said:
That's because you can't effectively monitor for it. That requires mind reading or overt evidence. As rare as these event are, it would be more worthwhile to add to screening for ability to maintain calm function in the face of death, or to disconnect and watch it go down like a movie?
Click to expand...
I fly for a major 121 carrier, but have no clue what they do behind the scenes. I would hope our FBI/CIA officials pass along any skeptical info on us. I'm sure they do at some level, but it's not public info.
 
Palmpilot said:
If they're not doing a good enough job of figuring that out, they're not likely to get better at it if they don't find out that that's the problem.
Click to expand...

They already know that the potential is there, you think they're stupid and never considered it? There's no effective way to do anything about it, so there is no value in making any effort. Life will be what it will be. Everybody dies, nobody knows when, because other humans introduce chaos to our lives. Just quit being afraid of it and wasting life trying to prevent it. Just live your life fully while you're here and move on, that's what you're here for, don't worry, dying isn't going to be bad. Regardless your reaction to immediate death, both are very calm from all reports. My personal experience as a person who gets accelerated function, it's not unpleasant at all.
 
Henning said:
That's because you can't effectively monitor for it. That requires mind reading or overt evidence...
Click to expand...

Then why did you say "they should have figured that out before hiring him"? :confused:
 
121 takes security VERY seriously.. If I want a drink of water I basically have the 82nd airborn guarding the cockpit door.
I'm certain, at least in the US, there is some sort of post hire monitoring. I'm happy about that.
 
Henning said:
They already know that the potential is there, you think they're stupid and never considered it?
Click to expand...

I'm at a loss to figure out what I wrote that would give you the impression that I think that. You're the one who said they should have figured it out before they hired him.

There's no effective way to do anything about it, so there is no value in making any effort. Life will be what it will be. Everybody dies, nobody knows when, because other humans introduce chaos to our lives. Just quit being afraid of it and wasting life trying to prevent it. Just live your life fully while you're here and move on, that's what you're here for, don't worry, dying isn't going to be bad. Regardless your reaction to immediate death, both are very calm from all reports. My personal experience as a person who gets accelerated function, it's not unpleasant at all.
Click to expand...

So, they should just send the investigators home?

I don't think airline managements and aviation safety officials are allowed to be that fatalistic about it.
 
Kritchlow said:
I fly for a major 121 carrier, but have no clue what they do behind the scenes. I would hope our FBI/CIA officials pass along any skeptical info on us. I'm sure they do at some level, but it's not public info.
Click to expand...

Maybe now, but the CFIs for the 9/11 guys were calling the FBI telling them something was wrong with these students. We didn't actually have to install all this TSA BS, they had a perfectly functional system in place that failed to function.

The information required to prevent 9/11 existed all along, we just failed to take action on it. The same goes for suicidally depressed people. I can more suspect this was suicide over terrorism. I suspect we will find a home life issue.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Maybe now, but the CFIs for the 9/11 guys were calling the FBI telling them something was wrong with these students. We didn't actually have to install all this TSA BS, they had a perfectly functioning system in place that failed to function.

The information required to prevent 9/11 existed all along, we just failed to take action on it. The same goes for suicidally depressed people. I can more suspect this was suicide over terrorism. I suspect we will find a home life issue.
Click to expand...

Yup. Not sure what else to say....
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup. Not sure what else to say....
Click to expand...

I think the only thing that you can do to protect yourselves as 121 pilots is every individual get to know their crew mates and keep an eye out for each other. Don't leave it up to the government or the management, do it yourselves. This is really a function the Union could fulfill most effectively.

Perhaps if the FAA mandated a .5hr bi-weekly or monthly "general stress counseling" for 121 operations and have it implemented by the union health and welfare office.

That would put them in front a professional observer who can not only monitor for hazard signs of destructive behavior, and even maybe help out the suicidal self destructive ones while getting them off the line while they're having their problems.

If we didn't treat mental health like a taboo subject, we could already have something like this in place. Perhaps this is the event that was required to catalyze that change. We need to deal with mental health issues in society much more effectively than we do. Most all the tragic shooting sprees aren gun issues, they are mental health issues.
 
Henning said:
...I can more suspect this was suicide over terrorism. I suspect we will find a home life issue.
Click to expand...

I don't think suicide can be ruled out, although I have trouble understanding the motivation for taking an airliner full of passengers with him if it wasn't terrorism.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't think suicide can be ruled out, although I have trouble understanding the motivation for taking an airliner full of passengers with him if it wasn't terrorism.
Click to expand...

Terrorism is a possibility, but there are other reasons why a person might go off the deep edge besides politico-religious extremism. It would be difficult for a normal person to understand such a person's reasoning regardless of how or why they arrived there.

Rich
 
Photo of first officer posted.
The same article says that the copilot was outside the cockpit (but this conflicts with other reports):
Selon nos informations, le co-pilote qui se trouvait en dehors du cockpit quand l'avion A320 s'est écrasé mardi dans les Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, se prénomme Andreas G. L. Il était le moins expérimenté des deux pilotes et avait 630 heures de vol selon la porte-parole de la Lufthansa.
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • Les-noms-des-deux-pilotes-reveles_article_landscape_pm_v8.jpg
    Les-noms-des-deux-pilotes-reveles_article_landscape_pm_v8.jpg
    254.3 KB · Views: 35
Last edited:
French investigators (live) say black box indicates copilot locked the captain out, and intentionally crashed the plane. :mad2:
 
Last edited:
Does cvr time stamp it's recordings?

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
 
Based on the flight profile shown here, what are the thoughts from the 121 group on how this profile was or was not flown by human control?

080bb6e4d3496895c5e651547100c53b.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Kritchlow said:
To clarify, it doesn't matter if it was the CA or FO. It DOES matter if the one in the cockpit was a jihad wack job terrorist.
Click to expand...

Or his family was threatened by same.[1]

[1] Hey, if we're all going to don our tinfoil hats and speculate wildly :rolleyes2:
 
Turningfinal said:
lol everyone in the FAA airman database has that spam article.
Click to expand...
But not everyone has been accused by the french BEA to have deliberately crashed an airliner. :hairraise:
 
Last edited:
I know folks are naturally looking for the Islam/jihad connection, but before we get tunnel vision, let's not forget that this could just as easily have been a Jet Blue/Clayton Osbon scenario with the wrong guy getting locked out of the cockpit.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I know folks are naturally looking for the Islam/jihad connection, but before we get tunnel vision, let's not forget that this could just as easily have been a Jet Blue/Clayton Osbon scenario with the wrong guy getting locked out of the cockpit.
Click to expand...

Do you really think that is true?
 
Fearless Tower said:
I know folks are naturally looking for the Islam/jihad connection, but before we get tunnel vision, let's not forget that this could just as easily have been a Jet Blue/Clayton Osbon scenario with the wrong guy getting locked out of the cockpit.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Or another theory is the sleepers are starting. Think about it. Striking from within. Strike enough fear with the flying public and airline revenues drop, which disrupts economics. Similarities here with a couple of recent accidents.

Just an opinion.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Perhaps. Or another theory is the sleepers are starting. Think about it. Striking from within. Strike enough fear with the flying public and airline revenues drop, which disrupts economics. Similarities here with a couple of recent accidents.

Just an opinion.
Click to expand...

For a sleeper, he must be a very deep one, with very German sounding first and last names.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Perhaps. Or another theory is the sleepers are starting. Think about it. Striking from within. Strike enough fear with the flying public and airline revenues drop, which disrupts economics. Similarities here with a couple of recent accidents.

Just an opinion.
Click to expand...

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but with the rash of unexplained or weird crashes lately, this is a remote possibility. I am still going with intentional grounding for whatever reason for now.
 
charheep said:
Not to jump on the bandwagon, but with the rash of unexplained or weird crashes lately, this is a remote possibility. I am still going with intentional grounding for whatever reason for now.
Click to expand...

With this latest one I think the needle has moved from "remote" to "distinct."
 
Ok... I know there's all the speculation about the German Wings flight, and I'm with you all. It's weird. It doesn't look good, and I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

But, if we're all throwing out our far fetched scenarios, and we want to think the best of Andreas Lubitz, that he wasn't a terrorist; he wasn't on a murder-suicide mission... I''ll put my crazy "what if" out there.

This is based on my limited knowledge of human physiology and zero knowledge of A320 systems.

As an Air Force guy, we have to go to the Altitude Chamber every 5 years. It's a whole-day pain in the butt, culminating in a chamber "flight" where you and 12 of your new best friends sit in a steel box and breathe each other's gasses while validating your personal hypoxia symptoms. In reality, it's really good training.

The thing about altitude chambers is that they're expensive, so in an effort to save money, the Air Force invented the ROBD (Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device). It's basically an oxygen mask that causes you to go hypoxic. Great idea... same effect... saves money.

Ok, so now we have the German Wings flight level at FL380 and the captain goes out to use the facilities and grab a cup of coffee. What does F/O Lubitz do? What any good First Officer does when he's in the seat when the other guy gets out and the plane is above FL250 (FAA rules)? He dutifully puts on his O2 mask.

What if he was getting bad air? I don't know if the A320 has GOX or O2 generators, but what if what he was breathing through the mask was making him hypoxic? We know it's happened before with the F-22 and their infamous OBOGS system.

The one thing I've learned from my half-dozen or so chamber flights is that everybody reacts to being hypoxic differently. I get dumb... well, dumber, some people get giddy. I've seen aviators being told to put their mask on "or they'll die" just give the instructor a smile and a big thumbs-up. I even had one ride where they had to bring the chamber down because someone was getting violent.

Maybe FO Lubitz just wanted to touch buttons. Maybe fly the plane a little; get a closer look at those pretty mountains. Who knows? There he was, hypoxic and sightseeing oblivious to the captain banging on the door and the screams of the passengers.

Of course, there are plenty of holes in that theory, the first being that he had to also keep denying entry to the captain who I'm sure was trying to electronically override the door lock. But if you've ever been a designated driver for your college buddies, you know how funny it is to drunks to do stupid stuff like try to get out of cars that are moving 60 mph down a freeway or throwing a full Slurpie at a cop. Not funny sober, hilarious when drunk.

I still think the simplest solution is still the most likely outcome, but hey, we're all throwing out our crazy theories.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Ok... I know there's all the speculation about the German Wings flight, and I'm with you all. It's weird. It doesn't look good, and I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor.

But, if we're all throwing out our far fetched scenarios, and we want to think the best of Andreas Lubitz, that he wasn't a terrorist; he wasn't on a murder-suicide mission... I''ll put my crazy "what if" out there.

This is based on my limited knowledge of human physiology and zero knowledge of A320 systems.

As an Air Force guy, we have to go to the Altitude Chamber every 5 years. It's a whole-day pain in the butt, culminating in a chamber "flight" where you and 12 of your new best friends sit in a steel box and breathe each other's gasses while validating your personal hypoxia symptoms. In reality, it's really good training.

The thing about altitude chambers is that they're expensive, so in an effort to save money, the Air Force invented the ROBD (Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device). It's basically an oxygen mask that causes you to go hypoxic. Great idea... same effect... saves money.

Ok, so now we have the German Wings flight level at FL380 and the captain goes out to use the facilities and grab a cup of coffee. What does F/O Lubitz do? What any good First Officer does when he's in the seat when the other guy gets out and the plane is above FL250 (FAA rules)? He dutifully puts on his O2 mask.

What if he was getting bad air? I don't know if the A320 has GOX or O2 generators, but what if what he was breathing through the mask was making him hypoxic? We know it's happened before with the F-22 and their infamous OBOGS system.

The one thing I've learned from my half-dozen or so chamber flights is that everybody reacts to being hypoxic differently. I get dumb... well, dumber, some people get giddy. I've seen aviators being told to put their mask on "or they'll die" just give the instructor a smile and a big thumbs-up. I even had one ride where they had to bring the chamber down because someone was getting violent.

Maybe FO Lubitz just wanted to touch buttons. Maybe fly the plane a little; get a closer look at those pretty mountains. Who knows? There he was, hypoxic and sightseeing oblivious to the captain banging on the door and the screams of the passengers.

Of course, there are plenty of holes in that theory, the first being that he had to also keep denying entry to the captain who I'm sure was trying to electronically override the door lock. But if you've ever been a designated driver for your college buddies, you know how funny it is to drunks to do stupid stuff like try to get out of cars that are moving 60 mph down a freeway or throwing a full Slurpie at a cop. Not funny sober, hilarious when drunk.

I still think the simplest solution is still the most likely outcome, but hey, we're all throwing out our crazy theories.
Click to expand...

The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?
 
RotorDude said:
The French prosecutor distinctly said that the FO's breathing was audible and sounded normal throughout the ordeal. Would that match with using "bad air"?
Click to expand...
I read that. I've heard CVR's before, as we all have. I've never heard breathing. I didn't think the CAMs would have enough fidelity to pick that up. If you were wearing an O2 mask, you would definitely hear someone breathing through he mask.

Did he mean normal rate? Sound?

I'm curious if the distinctive hiss-woosh of a quick donning mask was heard when the Captain left his seat.

During the hypoxia training, I don't remember breathing more rapidly or heavily. If anything I would breathe slower and deeper.

But again, I think my theory is as far fetched as you guys do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top