Air filed my first IFR flight plan...

Jim K

Jim K

Final Approach
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Richard Digits
...and it didn't work.

Forecast was for clear skies, but it quickly became apparent that my choices were file with FSS or bounce around in the heat & humidity. I called up St Louis Radio, and after some pain figuring out ICAO codes, he said he filed my flight plan and to contact center for clearance.

Only problem was KC center didn't have it. Neither did Champaign approach. So I asked approach to tag me up for flight following, climbed to 12.5 (which would keep me vfr for another 20 miles or so), and contacted Chicago center. They didn't have my flight plan either, but the nice lady offered to "make you ifr" and issued me a clearance. I assume being on FF greased the skids a bit.

Lessons learned:
- Always file when I'm going more than about 30min away. This lesson has whacked me upside the head about 3 times this summer, but maybe I'll learn it this time.
- Make a pdf of the flight plan form with the icao codes and stash it in my efb

Questions:
- I thought FSS could pull up my details from my leidos account using my n-number?
- Does air- filing ever work? ATC didn't seem too surprised they couldn't find it.

Otherwise had a lot of fun today. Building experience dealing with summer thunderstorms. Ability to fly high on a hot day like this is invaluable. Logged airports #51&52/102 in IL, so I'm over the hump on that project.
 
I air filed many of my IFR plans, through FSS, and had no problems, but that was before they closed most of them.

You FSS may have been located remotely, and sent it to the wrong regional ATC facility.
 
There are many reasons why a flight plan is lost in the system, but it doesn't happen often in the manner you describe. Usually the AFSS person can tell you right away that an air-filed flight plan has been accepted.

Air filing does work, almost all the time.

As you your other points, it never hurts to file an IFR flight plan and not use it if conditions permit. Or you can start the flight VFR and file the IFR plan starting wherever you think you are getting close to marginal weather. Alternatively, if you are on an active VFR flight plan and getting ATC services, it is pretty simply to just tell them you want to convert to IFR via XXX, XXX etc. By stating that you are on an active VFR flight plan, that saves the time and effort of ATC needing to ask and enter search and rescue information.

If you want to investigate this incident, which I think would be a good idea for your own info at least, contact Leidos and ask them about it. There used to be an easy way to do that with a direct phone number and email, but I don't see those readily available on the web site, but a quick call to 1800-WXBRIEF should yield the info. When I contacted them in the past to look into airborne radio calls going unanswered on multiple frequencies, I was impressed with the thoroughness of the response.

Jon
 
My SOP to get an pop-up IFR clearance in the air:
  • prepare the Flight Plan (either in advance on the ground, or spontaneously while in the air) in ForeFlight (and I've already filed many many times IFR from ForeFlight, so I know the ICAO codes work)
  • once I have a cell connection (and in any given 10 minute stretch at altitudes up to 14000', I'm 90% sure to get a connection good enough for this), click "File" in ForeFlight
  • wait a minute or two
  • then let Approach/Center know the IFR flight plan is on file
  • ATC gives me my clearance
This approach works very well for me, and in my experience way better than the FSS route.
YMMV,
Wayne
 
Were you using flight following? If so file with them.
 
Plano Pilot said:
Were you using flight following? If so file with them.
Click to expand...
In my experience, there are situations (a third of the time??) where Approach/Center is too busy (even if we're already on Flight Following) to issue a popup clearance and I've had them understandably tell me to "contact FSS and file". In those situations, my SOP (as outlined above) is to file my IFR flight plan in-flight on my cell via ForeFlight... rather than going off-frequency (for 5+ minutes?) via FSS.
 
Jim K said:
...and it didn't work.

Forecast was for clear skies, but it quickly became apparent that my choices were file with FSS or bounce around in the heat & humidity. I called up St Louis Radio, and after some pain figuring out ICAO codes, he said he filed my flight plan and to contact center for clearance.

Only problem was KC center didn't have it. Neither did Champaign approach. So I asked approach to tag me up for flight following, climbed to 12.5 (which would keep me vfr for another 20 miles or so), and contacted Chicago center. They didn't have my flight plan either, but the nice lady offered to "make you ifr" and issued me a clearance. I assume being on FF greased the skids a bit.

Lessons learned:
- Always file when I'm going more than about 30min away. This lesson has whacked me upside the head about 3 times this summer, but maybe I'll learn it this time.
- Make a pdf of the flight plan form with the icao codes and stash it in my efb

Questions:
- I thought FSS could pull up my details from my leidos account using my n-number?
- Does air- filing ever work? ATC didn't seem too surprised they couldn't find it.

Otherwise had a lot of fun today. Building experience dealing with summer thunderstorms. Ability to fly high on a hot day like this is invaluable. Logged airports #51&52/102 in IL, so I'm over the hump on that project.
Click to expand...

Where were you when you filed? What was the departure point. The Field 13 entry. Where were you going? What was the first fix in the Route? Field 15.
 
luvflyin said:
Where were you when you filed? What was the departure point. The Field 13 entry. Where were you going? What was the first fix in the Route? Field 15.
Click to expand...
I was going from h96 in southern il to krpj in northern IL. I contacted FSS about 40mi sse of kdec. Asked to file present positron, which by then was AXC150020.
 
wayneda40 said:
My SOP to get an pop-up IFR clearance in the air:
  • prepare the Flight Plan (either in advance on the ground, or spontaneously while in the air) in ForeFlight (and I've already filed many many times IFR from ForeFlight, so I know the ICAO codes work)
  • once I have a cell connection (and in any given 10 minute stretch at altitudes up to 14000', I'm 90% sure to get a connection good enough for this), click "File" in ForeFlight
  • wait a minute or two
  • then let Approach/Center know the IFR flight plan is on file
  • ATC gives me my clearance
This approach works very well for me, and in my experience way better than the FSS route.
YMMV,
Wayne
Click to expand...
I checked my tablet & phone, and neither showed signal, but now that you mention it I have gotten texts at that altitude in the past.
 
As far as the ICAO flight plan codes, it helps if you establish an account with Leidos/800wxbrief, and enter your n-number with codes, etc, and your PIC info. Then, when you call on the radio, the FSS operator can simply pull up your n-number file with everything there. (I don't think Foreflight 'crossfills' with Leidos flight service, but I could be wrong.)
 
Jim K said:
I was going from h96 in southern il to krpj in northern IL. I contacted FSS about 40mi sse of kdec. Asked to file present positron, which by then was AXC150020.
Click to expand...

Ok. I was thinking maybe it got sent to Indianapolis Center. It could have if the FSS guy entered some wrong numbers. It wouldn’t have taken to much of a ‘fat fingers’ thing for that to have happened. Things often get weird when your filing from locations close to Center boundaries.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
As far as the ICAO flight plan codes, it helps if you establish an account with Leidos/800wxbrief, and enter your n-number with codes, etc, and your PIC info. Then, when you call on the radio, the FSS operator can simply pull up your n-number file with everything there. (I don't think Foreflight 'crossfills' with Leidos flight service, but I could be wrong.)
Click to expand...
That's what I thought. I usually file through 1800wxbrief.com, but FSS didn't seem to have any of my information. Maybe I should've prompted him to look?
 
Jim K said:
That's what I thought. I usually file through 1800wxbrief.com, but FSS didn't seem to have any of my information. Maybe I should've prompted him to look?
Click to expand...

Now I’m beginning to wonder if your Call Sign got bungled. Do you have one of those toungue twister type call signs? Do controllers often have trouble with it?
 
The other thing that causes lost flight plans is getting the p-time wrong (Zulu conversion is a common error). It can take upwards of 20 minutes for the plan to get through the system.
I think that in years of IFR flying, I've only resorted to air filing with FSS twice. Usually, I can pick up a popup IFR clearance with ATC. As you've noticed, it's often a lot easier to file on the ground, even if you intend to pick it up in the air or that you might want to go VFR anyway. You can always cancel IFR and switch to Flight Following (or not).
 
luvflyin said:
Now I’m beginning to wonder if your Call Sign got bungled. Do you have one of those toungue twister type call signs? Do controllers often have trouble with it?
Click to expand...
Controllers do often bungle it, but the fss guy sounded like he was reading it back correctly.
 
I've never tried to file IFR via FSS in the air. If you really need a popup IFR, it can take a while to get it through the system that way. Often, you can get a pop-up IFR clearance from Approach. But it is for sure more reliable to have your IFR flight plan filed and in your pocket before departure. Then if you need it, it is easy to pick up shortly after departure. In my neck of the woods, Syracuse Approach will let you pick up IFR in the air if practical (saving the void time issue tying up your airport's airspace), or on occasion, a pop-up IFR clearance to complete the last leg of a trip, get an IFR descent, or and IFR approach to the home field from VFR on top. For departure pop-ups, it helps to know which fix Approach prefers to send you to while they sort out your clearance and give you a chance to copy while VFR. These days, I just file IFR on pretty much any long trip, that way I know I'm covered and in the system if I need it.
 
There have been a few times Approach has told me to go file with FSS. It's rare. I pop back on their frequency and tell them it's on file and it usually takes around 20 minutes for them to get it.
But usually, if I'm already on flight following I can do something like:

27K: Looks like its IFR ahead, can I get a clearance at 6000.
APC: Cleared to Destination, climb and maintain 6000.
 
Flyingron,

I have converted from a VFR plan to an IFR one, in the air, as you describe.

A question from an old timer, what route will they expect you to fly if you loose radio contact with them? Do they know what magenta line and transition you will be flying?

Not a trivial question, I have lost com in cloud, and continued to my destination, but I had a clearance on Victor airways, and made the standard transition to the approach. They knew where I was, and what I was going to do next, all the way.
 
This has been such a mixed bag for me. I’ve asked center for an IFR clearance just to get below a layer and got the third degree, sent to FSS to file SAR information, etc. And then one time I spent a while circling in a pocket of VMC trying to piece together a victor airway route on my iPad that would get me an MEA I could live with, called center and said I wanted an IFR clearance to my destination and I had a route for them, and they didn’t ask the route but just cleared me direct at a completely reasonable altitude.

So far, I haven’t found any way to predict which way it will go, although I have no doubt that being on flight following ahead of time would help.
 
geezer said:
Flyingron,

I have converted from a VFR plan to an IFR one, in the air, as you describe.

A question from an old timer, what route will they expect you to fly if you loose radio contact with them? Do they know what magenta line and transition you will be flying?

Not a trivial question, I have lost com in cloud, and continued to my destination, but I had a clearance on Victor airways, and made the standard transition to the approach. They knew where I was, and what I was going to do next, all the way.
Click to expand...

If they clear me to my destination without qualification, the route is DIRECT. It's incumbent on you to know the minimum IFR altitude for that when you take the clearance.
 
I think that you are missing the point.

If I am on a VFR flight plan from Cincinnati to BWI, and they clear me direct when I convert to IFR, how much airspace around BWI must they clear when I code my transponder 'No radio' 50 miles out, having no idea which runway and approach procedure I might elect to use?

When I arrived at RDU there were airliners lined up on the ground, and an unknown number holding in the air. They did know which runway I was going to try to use, as the airport conditions were VFR.

Going into a nearby airport where your N number is familiar could be different, as your normal choices are known.
 
Jim K said:
I was going from h96 in southern il to krpj in northern IL. I contacted FSS about 40mi sse of kdec. Asked to file present positron, which by then was AXC150020.
Click to expand...

A present position of AXC/150/020 is just inside Chicago Center surface area, so if you called Kansas City Center, they would not have a clue. Also, Leidos provides the routing if you filed with FSS and there software does not know that AXC/150/020 is handled by Chicago Center and would have sent the flight plan to Kansas City Center, which would have rejected it as being "not my job" so to speak. This kind of issue often occurs with air filing or picking up a clearance enroute. Filing systems know which center handles airports, because this data is published in airport related records. But when you file from a point in space, a VOR, or a fix, the filing system has to be smart enough to understand the polygon boundaries that define which center handles the airspace. I got the FAA to publish these boundaries so that air filing would not have these idiosyncrasies. The ForeFlight filing system understands the boundaries, but the FSS system does not. Also, as a pilot, it is helpful to know which center the flight plan was filed with as you will know which center has your clearance and which one does not. In this case, it all depends if the FSS specialist was able to figure out why they were getting the rejection, in which case they could have filed with Chicago Center, but you would have had to call Chicago to get your clearance.
 
Here are some screenshots of the Center surface boundaries. They don't match up with the charted Center boundaries. The thin magenta boundaries are the surface boundaries and the green is the published Low IFR Center boundaries. AXC/150/020 is just inside the surface center boundary for Chicago center.

Chicago Center Surface boundaries.jpg
 
Simplest way to avoid the which center is supposed to get your flight plan is to always file from an airport along your route or near to your route, ideally an IFR airport. This works even if you are enroute, just pick up your clearance from the departure control for the airport. You can file the route anyway you want, but had you filed with KMTO, you could have used Champaign departure control frequency 132.85 or Chicago Center of 121.35, the air file route would have been KMTO AXC150020 KRPJ. Or you could have selected a departure from 2H0 and picked up your clearance from Kansas City Center 124.3 and filed the route 2H0 AXC150020 KRPJ. All this info is easily available in ForeFlight or pretty much any EFB.
 
@John Collins that's interesting that the center surface boundaries don't match. I started with KC as the low IFR chart showed me in their airspace, and your description of how the plan might've gotten lost makes sense. If I ever have to do that again, I'll take your suggestion of using an airport; that seems much cleaner. I didn't think of filing a departure point other than present position.

Is there a chart of which surface areas are handled by tracon vs center? I've always been curious where CMI approach's boundaries actually are.
 
Jim, filing is done by distributing flight plans to centers who in turn feed the TRACON if needed. Most of the boundary issues are due to agreements between centers to support TRACONs that straddle an area near the center boundary. I tried to attach a zip file of Custom Map Layer in ForeFlight that shows the Center Surface Boundaries, but this site does not support a zip file. The surface boundaries are updated every 28 days, but for the most part they don't change often, maybe once or twice a year. If you want a copy of the latest boundary file, provide me an email address in a private conversation.

Jim K said:
Is there a chart of which surface areas are handled by tracon vs center? I've always been curious where CMI approach's boundaries actually are.
Click to expand...

KCMI is in Chicago Center and is the likely reason that Chicago Center handles the surface airspace to the south of KCMI.
 
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Let’s say I file IFR but it’s VMC so I tell ATC on initial contact I just want to go VFR. They tag me up, give me a VFR altitude and am on FF. Now 2 centers later weather goes south and need to convert to IFR. How hard is that for ATC, since they are using my IFR strip? Would I need to refile?
 
geezer said:
I think that you are missing the point.

If I am on a VFR flight plan from Cincinnati to BWI, and they clear me direct when I convert to IFR, how much airspace around BWI must they clear when I code my transponder 'No radio' 50 miles out, having no idea which runway and approach procedure I might elect to use?

When I arrived at RDU there were airliners lined up on the ground, and an unknown number holding in the air. They did know which runway I was going to try to use, as the airport conditions were VFR.

Going into a nearby airport where your N number is familiar could be different, as your normal choices are known.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what point you are going to make.

First off, if you're in VMC when you lose comms, you're going to land as soon as practicable and not go barrelling into the class B.
If you lose comms in IMC into a class B airport no matter what route you've been issued, it's going to be fun and games. I operated out of IAD for years. I never got a runway assignment in my IFR clearance. Sometimes I'll get a STAR but almost all of them end with expect radar vectors to final approach course.

If you don't lose comms, you'll know what runway because that's the one they'll victor you for / clear you for. Worked that way last time I flew into RDU, too.
 
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Tokirbymd said:
Let’s say I file IFR but it’s VMC so I tell ATC on initial contact I just want to go VFR. They tag me up, give me a VFR altitude and am on FF. Now 2 centers later weather goes south and need to convert to IFR. How hard is that for ATC, since they are using my IFR strip? Would I need to refile?
Click to expand...

It’s not hard at all. A quick clearance to your destination and flight data changes your altitude on the strip from VFR/XX to an IFR altitude. If you were under FF and never filed it would be just as easy.

This guy gives the best description of how the system works for an IFR pop up and how easy it is to go from VFR to IFR and IFR to VFR once in the system.

https://www.ifr-magazine.com/weather/pop-up-clearances/
 
wayneda40 said:
My SOP to get an pop-up IFR clearance in the air:
  • prepare the Flight Plan (either in advance on the ground, or spontaneously while in the air) in ForeFlight (and I've already filed many many times IFR from ForeFlight, so I know the ICAO codes work)
  • once I have a cell connection (and in any given 10 minute stretch at altitudes up to 14000', I'm 90% sure to get a connection good enough for this), click "File" in ForeFlight
  • wait a minute or two
  • then let Approach/Center know the IFR flight plan is on file
  • ATC gives me my clearance
This approach works very well for me, and in my experience way better than the FSS route.
YMMV,
Wayne
Click to expand...

What part of the country I’m curious? I get cell service every once in a while airborne, but not consistently and definitely not up to 14k I don’t think.
 
AA5Bman said:
What part of the country I’m curious? I get cell service every once in a while airborne, but not consistently and definitely not up to 14k I don’t think.
Click to expand...
I fly mostly California through Texas.
 
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