ADS-B question

Stewartb

Stewartb

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stewartb
If an E-AB airplane has ADS-B capable equipment but never did a validation flight does it have ADS-B by interpretation of the regs?

What would the minimum be to classify ADS-B as removed for the aircraft?
 
Stewartb said:
If an E-AB airplane has ADS-B capable equipment but never did a validation flight does it have ADS-B by interpretation of the regs?

What would the minimum be to classify ADS-B as removed for the aircraft?
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In my opinion until until you have a report that says it works you don’t have ADSB out.

In my opinion with an EAB aircraft a log book entry would be sufficient to document removal.
 
here is my take on it, and its worth exactly what you paid for it.
the regs:
far 91.225
(f) Except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless—

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative ADS-B Out, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

so if the unit is physically in the aircraft it is equipped. if it is not tested and working properly it is inop. so to make it un-equipped then the box must be removed from the aircraft with the proper log book entry and weight an balance paperwork done. if the unit is not removed then I would consider it inop and then you can only fly it as per (1).
 
My understanding is that the validation report was ONLY required for the rebate, which is no longer available.
 
If it was installed and written into the maintenance logs it's part of the plane. That would be even more true if the plane ever flew with it. The validation report is to prove that it's working correctly, not to prove that you have it (although that's obviously true).

No, I didn't say it makes sense ...
 
Ravioli said:
My understanding is that the validation report was ONLY required for the rebate, which is no longer available.
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Guess I'd say installation isn't "complete" until you have the PAPR with no "red" boxes.
 
Joe Pilot said:
Guess I'd say installation isn't "complete" until you have the PAPR with no "red" boxes.
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Say whatever you like. Better yet, cite a regulation to support your position.
 
That’s my understanding too. Validation flight for the rebate only.
 
91.407 requires that after a modification to the aircraft (which would include installation of ADS-B), that either a flight test or ground test equipment be used to make an operational check of the modification. In the case of ADS-B the flight test and obtaining a PAPR report for the flight is one option for satisfying the ADS-B installation. It requires a maintenance log entry. Here is a link to the FAA Technical Paper on their policy for the installation of ADS-B Out equipment: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipad...B_Out-In_Installation_Tech_Paper(9-25-17).pdf See sections 11. System Performance Verification and Methods and 12. Documenting ADS-B OUT System Performance Verification. Here is the FAA regulation 91.407 for reference:

§91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under §43.7 of this chapter; and
(2) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.
(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.
(c) The aircraft does not have to be flown as required by paragraph (b) of this section if, prior to flight, ground tests, inspection, or both show conclusively that the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration has not appreciably changed the flight characteristics or substantially affected the flight operation of the aircraft.
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John Collins said:
91.407 requires that after a modification to the aircraft (which would include installation of ADS-B), that either a flight test or ground test equipment be used to make an operational check of the modification. In the case of ADS-B the flight test and obtaining a PAPR report for the flight is one option for satisfying the ADS-B installation. It requires a maintenance log entry. Here is a link to the FAA Technical Paper on their policy for the installation of ADS-B Out equipment: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipad...B_Out-In_Installation_Tech_Paper(9-25-17).pdf See sections 11. System Performance Verification and Methods and 12. Documenting ADS-B OUT System Performance Verification. Here is the FAA regulation 91.407 for reference:
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I think you need to read 43.1 a 1 and b 1 before anyone starts quoting maintenance log entries.

As for OP, do you really need ADS-B? I don't plan on installing it since I don't plan on operating in an area that requires it.

And even if I did, uavionix sells a very removable ADS-B solution.
 
Do I need it? No, but I installed it with my G3X so now I have to use it or remove the txp, which is no easy solution. I’m leaving it in.
 
There is no certification tests like an xponder so you might as well leave is alone... It's not 'costing' you anything in extra maintenance.
 
pfarber said:
I think you need to read 43.1 a 1 and b 1 before anyone starts quoting maintenance log entries.

As for OP, do you really need ADS-B? I don't plan on installing it since I don't plan on operating in an area that requires it.

And even if I did, uavionix sells a very removable ADS-B solution.
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A removable ads-b out solution?
 
Fill out a PAPR request online and it will send you results in less than 30 minutes. If you pass put a copy in your records.
 
pfarber said:
There is no certification tests like an xponder so you might as well leave is alone... It's not 'costing' you anything in extra maintenance.
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The ADS-B solution I'm installing is the Stratus ESG, which is ADSB/Txp in one box. I have been working under the assumption that I'll still need to run the unit through an avionics shop every 2 years for the VFR calibration/test.

Somebody educate me here...
 
My transponder guy checked the ADS-B for me at the same time using the same box when he did the last 24 month VFR thing. But the log book sticker said nothing about the ADS-B.
 
The check is a transponder check.....it won't say anything about ADS-B.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
My transponder guy checked the ADS-B for me at the same time using the same box when he did the last 24 month VFR thing. But the log book sticker said nothing about the ADS-B.
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Sold your soul? Is everything you post based in negativity or is there a glimmer of something intelligent in there? Are you installing and uninstalling ADS-B on a regular basis?
 
When I have two planes, I will give very serious consideration to moving the tailbeacon from one to the other for flight compliance. The app to program the HEX code is easy and for 5 mins per changeover it seems like a bargain compared to $1500.

But please, @Stewartb, continue insulting the prior poster. Your insights are so insightful.
 
I stated I had a full Garmin G3X package installed. Who insulted whom?
 
The guy who wrote
Stewartb said:
Is everything you post based in negativity or is there a glimmer of something intelligent in there? Are you installing and uninstalling ADS-B on a regular basis?
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Was less than congenial
 
pfarber said:
https://uavionix.com/products/tailbeacon/

These things are everywhere. Unless you sold your soul to Garmin you always have options.

The Archer II rent has one, neat bit of kit. I use a Stratux for ADS-B in, and also radar traffic advisories.
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By reg, you cannot fly an aircraft without adsb out once it has been installed. So sure, you can uninstall it easily, but then the plane is no longer legal to fly.
 
Salty said:
By reg, you cannot fly an aircraft without adsb out once it has been installed. So sure, you can uninstall it easily, but then the plane is no longer legal to fly.
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Which reg would that be?
 
Salty said:
By reg, you cannot fly an aircraft without adsb out once it has been installed. So sure, you can uninstall it easily, but then the plane is no longer legal to fly.
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You cannot fly without a transponder. ADS-B, if installed, must be turned on. See 91.225 f 1 Note that this clearly states that ADS-B must be installed for this FAR to count. As long as you are not in airspace requiring ADS-B an E/AB owner could simply uninstall it and be good to go.

Like the uAvionx kit, you can transfer it from plane to plane as long as you reprogram it with the correct code.

And if using the colloquial phrase 'sold your soul' offends, well, ok.
 
It was my understanding that once equipped you could not unequip it. I don’t have the time to look it up. I may be wrong.
 
Yes, you can remove adsb-out equipment. The pedantic answer is that for every removal, you gotta incur the papyrus -aged logbook kabuki, which is extraneous to a fault (as are fac-built rules.... but I digress).

A good portion of the equipped demographic went the all-in-one xponder box (1090), which makes removal impractical, as it removes the xponder in the process. Others like the garmin -82 978 solution are also labor intensive and impractical (not designed for modular removal) to remove repetitively. But the uavionix solution happens to be very modular and easy to remove, so that's where this hypothetical action becomes practical (comparatively speaking).
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yes, you can remove adsb-out equipment. The pedantic answer is that for every removal, you gotta incur the papyrus -aged logbook kabuki, which is extraneous to a fault (as are fac-built rules.... but I digress).

A good portion of the equipped demographic went the all-in-one xponder box (1090), which makes removal impractical, as it removes the xponder in the process. Others like the garmin -82 978 solution are also labor intensive and impractical (not designed for modular removal) to remove repetitively. But the uavionix solution happens to be very modular and easy to remove, so that's where this hypothetical action becomes practical (comparatively speaking).
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Ok, just for the comedy relief I have to ask you to prove there's no regulation saying you can't remove it. Totally kidding, but a lot of the conversations around here go that way.

Maybe I was mis-remembering the "you can't turn it off, if installed" and applying it to uninstalling, or maybe confusing transponders or something, but I had it firmly in my head there was a reg about it. I have too much stuff I should be doing and just don't care enough to even dig in to figure out my confusion, I'll take your word for it.
 
Salty said:
Ok, just for the comedy relief I have to ask you to prove there's no regulation saying you can't remove it. Totally kidding, but a lot of the conversations around here go that way.

Maybe I was mis-remembering the "you can't turn it off, if installed" and applying it to uninstalling, or maybe confusing transponders or something, but I had it firmly in my head there was a reg about it. I have too much stuff I should be doing and just don't care enough to even dig in to figure out my confusion, I'll take your word for it.
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I did a 5 minute search for relevant info. I don't think there is anything preventing you from removing the equipment. Obviously, it would restrict your airspace options.
 
IK04 said:
As long as I stay out of the airspace described in 14 CFR § 91.215, I can fly without a transponder.
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Even for part c of 91.215?

"or in all controlled airspace,"

Controlled airspace means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.

That could be class E airspace (700 or 1200ft agl depending on the magenta shading)

Or am I reading it wrong?
 
pfarber said:
Even for part c of 91.215?

"or in all controlled airspace,"

Controlled airspace means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.

That could be class E airspace (700 or 1200ft agl depending on the magenta shading)

Or am I reading it wrong?
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Are you talking about "in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 shall operate the transponder"? Do you think that sentence applies to someone that doesn't have one?
 
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dmspilot said:
Are you talking about "in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 shall operate the transponder"? Do you think that sentence applies to someone that doesn't have one?
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Well other than those who are flying without an electrical system, I think that's what it means. 'Controlled airspace' is Class E.

I also think that in 2021 you either get a radio or stop flying. The number of times I've been cut off in the pattern because they are not listening is way to high.
 
pfarber said:
Well other than those who are flying without an electrical system, I think that's what it means. 'Controlled airspace' is Class E.

I also think that in 2021 you either get a radio or stop flying. The number of times I've been cut off in the pattern because they are not listening is way to high.
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No. See and avoid, not hear and avoid. If my radio is broken, I don't want you out there expecting me to hear you.
 
pfarber said:
Well other than those who are flying without an electrical system, I think that's what it means. 'Controlled airspace' is Class E.
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You may wish to review 91-215. If you have one, it has to be on. But you don't need to have one. No electric lets you fly inside the 30nm ring of death without a transponder and without notifying ATC.
ADS-B rules are purd near the same.
 
pfarber said:
Well other than those who are flying without an electrical system, I think that's what it means. 'Controlled airspace' is Class E.
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Your reading comprehension and ability to parse logical statements need work.
 
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