ADS-B out upgrade

John Collins said:
Why do you plan on installing a mode S transponder? You will need one if you plan on flying above 18,000 MSL, but otherwise you won't.
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I figured now is a good time to meet the mandate and upgrade the transponder. I ask the avionics shop and this what he recommended. I won't be above 18k in this plane. I see where you recommended the gdl88 in another post. What are the pros and cons of each option? Does the GDL88 leave me with my old transponder?

Part of the reason I posted what I was doing was in case their were other options to consider, I knew someone would point them out.

Thanks,

Jim
 
Topper said:
I figured now is a good time to meet the mandate and upgrade the transponder. I ask the avionics shop and this what he recommended. I won't be above 18k in this plane. I see where you recommended the gdl88 in another post. What are the pros and cons of each option? Does the GDL88 leave me with my old transponder?

Part of the reason I posted what I was doing was in case their were other options to consider, I knew someone would point them out.

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

One feature of the UAT, of which the GDL88 is an example, is that it provides the capability you currently have with your existing transponder when you squawk 1200, that is you are anonymous. With a mode S transponder, you can't be anonymous as your ICAO ID which is directly related to your N number is transmitted on each mode S reply or if the unit is ES capable, on each broadcast of your position. Furthermore, the GTX330ES is just a transmitter, sure, it will enable you to meet the FAA requirement, but you get no benefit. The GDL88 is cheaper, will provide free weather and traffic on your to be installed GTN650, and supports the anonymous mode as long as you keep a mode A/C transponder and don't switch to a mode S transponder.

The GTX330ES has a list price of $4,796 verses the GDL88 of $3995.
 
John Collins said:
One feature of the UAT, of which the GDL88 is an example, is that it provides the capability you currently have with your existing transponder when you squawk 1200, that is you are anonymous. With a mode S transponder, you can't be anonymous as your ICAO ID which is directly related to your N number is transmitted on each mode S reply or if the unit is ES capable, on each broadcast of your position. Furthermore, the GTX330ES is just a transmitter, sure, it will enable you to meet the FAA requirement, but you get no benefit. The GDL88 is cheaper, will provide free weather and traffic on your to be installed GTN650, and supports the anonymous mode as long as you keep a mode A/C transponder and don't switch to a mode S transponder.

The GTX330ES has a list price of $4,796 verses the GDL88 of $3995.
Click to expand...

I am not planning on running drugs anytime soon! In all seriousness, why would I care about being anonymous?

My thinking was that the screen on the 650 is small and I would dedicate it to the route and pick up the weather and traffic on the ipad, but I am very open to your input. The price difference is not a big deal, especially considering the age of my current transponder.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge about these options.

Jim
 
I have been thinking about ADS-B for a while. My feeling is that there will be more options within a few years but I do not want to wait until near the mandate deadline because their will probably eh quite a backlog at the avionics shops for install. I would really like to get it earlier because my most desired feature is traffic because I spend most of my flying time in the Denver and Seattle airspace.

I currently have a 430w and just recently purchased a used Garmin GTX 330 transponder for $2400. I will be replacing my GTX 327 and the difference should cost me about $1200. luckily I am able to do the install myself working with a local avionics shop and they will do the needed cert afterwards. I plan to use the existing TIS traffic of the mode S and wire it in to the 430W over the ARINC 429 interface to display traffic on the 430w. I will also wire into the audio panel for alerts. I also plan to wire the RS232 output into my AREA GPS to also display traffic.

My plan is the to upgrade the GTX 330 to an ES in a year or so for $1200. This with the connected 430w WAAS position source I will be ADS-B out compliant. I will the buy one of the portable ADS-B in units for traffic that I will display on my AREA or iPad. I am not sure what unit I want to go with yet. I am a ForeFlight guy so I will want and see what they do there. I should be able to get ADSB, in/out traffic and weather for around $3400
 
Topper said:
I am not planning on running drugs anytime soon! In all seriousness, why would I care about being anonymous?

My thinking was that the screen on the 650 is small and I would dedicate it to the route and pick up the weather and traffic on the ipad, but I am very open to your input. The price difference is not a big deal, especially considering the age of my current transponder.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge about these options.

Jim
Click to expand...

With the GDL88, you have your option of displaying the weather or traffic on the GTN650. Nothing prevents you from also having an iPad with the same data using either the GDL88 or the GTX330ES. You don't need to be running drugs to benefit from being anonymous. You are anonymous today anytime you squawk 1200 or are not receiving ATC services. One of the selling points of ADSB was that it would enable local authorities to monitor who was using their facilities and could easily lead to a them charging a fee. You might have a lapse of attention and briefly dip your wing into airspace such as a Class B, you have now been identified, your summons will be in the mail. You may get out of jail if you fill out a NASA form, but you have been tagged. Also, you may simply not want to be identified by a third party which is easy with a cheap ground receiver. Your flight is none of their business.
 
Topper said:
! In all seriousness, why would I care about being anonymous?....

.....Jim
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When this ADS-B get rolled out in 2020, be ready for receiving user fee bills in the mail. .

Mark my words.... Being anonymous then will be logical thing to do..:yes:;)
 
N801BH said:
When this ADS-B get rolled out in 2020, be ready for receiving user fee bills in the mail. .

Mark my words.... Being anonymous then will be logical thing to do..:yes:;)
Click to expand...


Won't happen because Class D or lower isn't required to have ADS-B out.
 
bnt83 said:
Won't happen because Class D or lower isn't required to have ADS-B out.
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That rule can change with the stroke of a pen.... And since the country will be 22 TRILLION in debt.... ALL revenue is going to be exploited..:yes::(


Stay tuned...
 
John Collins said:
One feature of the UAT, of which the GDL88 is an example, is that it provides the capability you currently have with your existing transponder when you squawk 1200, that is you are anonymous. With a mode S transponder, you can't be anonymous as your ICAO ID which is directly related to your N number is transmitted on each mode S reply or if the unit is ES capable, on each broadcast of your position. Furthermore, the GTX330ES is just a transmitter, sure, it will enable you to meet the FAA requirement, but you get no benefit. The GDL88 is cheaper, will provide free weather and traffic on your to be installed GTN650, and supports the anonymous mode as long as you keep a mode A/C transponder and don't switch to a mode S transponder.

The GTX330ES has a list price of $4,796 verses the GDL88 of $3995.
Click to expand...

I like this setup John but it's based on already having a GTN650. It's pretty tempting for me to just use my existing GTX330 and Garmin 480 and go with upgrading to an ES out scenario. But, since I plan on keeping my plane for some time I might as well invest in a GTN650 and the GDL88. Only thing is, isn't there a black antenna you place on the top of your panel? I'm not big on putting stuff up there. I like shark fin antennas or imbedded.
 
N801BH said:
That rule can change with the stroke of a pen.... And since the country will be 22 TRILLION in debt.... ALL revenue is going to be exploited..:yes::(


Stay tuned...
Click to expand...

Nooo They will only increase the fuel tax. So by 2020 AVGAS will be $20.20/gal.

José
 
John Collins said:
One feature of the UAT, of which the GDL88 is an example, is that it provides the capability you currently have with your existing transponder when you squawk 1200, that is you are anonymous. With a mode S transponder, you can't be anonymous as your ICAO ID which is directly related to your N number is transmitted on each mode S reply or if the unit is ES capable, on each broadcast of your position. Furthermore, the GTX330ES is just a transmitter, sure, it will enable you to meet the FAA requirement, but you get no benefit. The GDL88 is cheaper, will provide free weather and traffic on your to be installed GTN650, and supports the anonymous mode as long as you keep a mode A/C transponder and don't switch to a mode S transponder.

The GTX330ES has a list price of $4,796 verses the GDL88 of $3995.
Click to expand...

But if you want to fly above FL180 you need to have the GTX330ES to comply.

José
 
Yep, those who were early ADSB adopters with the GDL 90 are stuck with non-compliant (and no plans to be made compliant) datalink.

I'm in no hurry. I suspect we'll have better solutions as the date comes closer.
 
Piloto said:
But if you want to fly above FL180 you need to have the GTX330ES to comply.

José
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True, but most GA aircraft are not capable of flight at or above 18000 MSL.

FYI, I used 18000 MSL instead of FL180, because the regulation is specified in terms of MSL. Also, the regulation requires a 1090ES transponder above 18000 MSL, but doesn't prohibit using the UAT above that level. So until 2020, one could operate above 18,000 MSL with a UAT unit and a mode A/C transponder and after 2020, they could operate with a UAT unit and a mode S transponder with ES.
 
flyingron said:
Yep, those who were early ADSB adopters with the GDL 90 are stuck with non-compliant (and no plans to be made compliant) datalink.

I'm in no hurry. I suspect we'll have better solutions as the date comes closer.
Click to expand...

That's why I've been waiting.
 
I have thought about picking up one of the less expensive ADS-B in units like the Sky Radar L so I could have weather on the iFly but I guess I am just too cheap
 
Piloto said:
Keep in mind that your plane is not going to be grounded by 2020 if you do not have ADS-B out. You do not need ADS-B out for class D air space or below 10,000 feet. Most of the airport you probaly fly are in class D airspace, check it out. AVGAS at class C, B airports is very expensive when compared to those in class D. With AVGAS prices already at $10/gal at class C, D airports I don't think you will be flying into them by 2020.

José
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In the intermountain West if you're not flying at 10k or above you're too freaking low in most cases to cross the hills, and limiting your accessibility seems shortsighted.
 
Doesn't include the stuff above 10K MSL that's below 2500 AGL.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I am having a 750 installed in my beater right now, and one of the things that drove the decision is the capability to add on the ADS-B in/out later on.
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What kind of numbers are you seeing. Here in the mid west I have found them for just shy of $18K with a GI-106A and altitude encoder.

The ADS-B unit for the 750 is pricey, as is the remote audio and remote xponder
 
I'm not sure how the Garmin stuff is handled but I'm looking at adding In/Out to a certified motor glider based on the performance of the Dynon S-ES based In/Out system's traffic. I fly the experimental for aerobatics and it is amazing what I see on traffic but do not see in the sky.

Anyway, a Mode S-ES out solution requires an STC or Field Approval based on following exactly an existing STC. There are no STCs for S-ES Out in a glider and using an SEL based STC as a basis for field approval is going to be a lot of fun.

This is one situation where experimental is way ahead of certified wrt safety. That is a situation that should not be tolerated. In addition, a $10K plus mandate levied on the existing GA fleet will result in a grass roots uprising. Representatives will be contacted and the mandate will be delayed. This would be a crying shame as ADSB is A GOOD IDEA and it works very well.

I've dropped an note to the FAA's administrator in hopes of them revisiting this course. I would hate to see the single most important task the FAA has undertaken in thirty years go sideways for lack of foresight or leadership.
 
lolachampcar said:
I'm not sure how the Garmin stuff is handled but I'm looking at adding In/Out to a certified motor glider based on the performance of the Dynon S-ES based In/Out system's traffic. I fly the experimental for aerobatics and it is amazing what I see on traffic but do not see in the sky.

Anyway, a Mode S-ES out solution requires an STC or Field Approval based on following exactly an existing STC. There are no STCs for S-ES Out in a glider and using an SEL based STC as a basis for field approval is going to be a lot of fun.

This is one situation where experimental is way ahead of certified wrt safety. That is a situation that should not be tolerated. In addition, a $10K plus mandate levied on the existing GA fleet will result in a grass roots uprising. Representatives will be contacted and the mandate will be delayed. This would be a crying shame as ADSB is A GOOD IDEA and it works very well.

I've dropped an note to the FAA's administrator in hopes of them revisiting this course. I would hate to see the single most important task the FAA has undertaken in thirty years go sideways for lack of foresight or leadership.
Click to expand...


Agreed 100%.........
 
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