JoeBradSEA
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JAB - Southeast Aerospace
ADS-B Ignorant, Please Help with upgrade Options
- Thread starter MBDiagMan
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JoeBradSEA
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JAB - Southeast Aerospace
I'm not sure who said that their opinion is of the "most value" and perhaps that is not completely true. In any case, there are many qualified people at quite a few shops who are willing to assist and provide information on the front end well before being compensated for their time.
Plano Pilot
Line Up and Wait
The passengers on my flight today think it works great on the ipad. I gave them my spare ipad and they made a game out of it to see how many of the airplanes the could see. This was in our C340 with the 345.
Ravioli
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Actually Mike, I'm with @James331 on this one.
Don't get me wrong, Trevor does GREAT work, and has worked on my club planes, but I think that the "get in line or you might have to wait until after Dec 2019" mantra is sales crap.
If the demand is expected to be that huge in the next two years I'd be hiring now to cover it.
Of course, I have the luxury of putting off the mandate until the last possible minute since there will be some experimental solutions at much lower costs in 2019.
As for the OP... The Lynx is nice, but for those with 'older eyes' that display could be of no value over the alternatives.
James331
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Plus folks selling good ADSB equipment to chase the latest greatest, there will be some good deals to be had!
What's really scary is the A&P/IA I use for inspections and such asked ME about the ADSB issue! What he really needs to know is what is he allowed to install and what needs the avionics shop. I suggested he check the various AMT websites as well as AOPA. Got any other suggestions for him?
I agree - as impressive as the Lynx 9000, unless it's installed in the center of the stack (my transponder is over on the far right) the nifty display and the touch screen are really impractical. I'd rather have the Lynx 2000 (no display, just the GPS WAAS and ADSB In/OUT) and live with the iPad as the display.
Having the 430 WAAS will save you several 1000 dollars. Since you have the 430W, just get a Garmin ADS-B transponder and you are good to go! You might need a new transponder antenna also. Its going to run some 5k or so.
bnt83
Final Approach
#1 Certified Aircraft -- If he/she isn't an approved dealer its probably 50/50 shot that the equipment manufacturer will sell them the equipment or provide the approved installation data (STC).
#2 Experimental Aircraft -- Not really any issues related to #1.
With both, you have to dink with the encoder or static system as most if not all ADS-B out devices need pressure altitude interface. If the AP/IA doesn't already have a CRS to inspect transponders as defined by 91.411 91.413 then will have to contract a service to do it for him/her.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I reread this thread. I appreciate all the responses. It has helped me get an idea of what and when I need to deal with this.
Also, it occurred to me that although I don't make a habit of landing at DFW, it is very nice when they bore me through the bravo to Grand Prairie where my Mom is in Assisted living. Without the ADS-B out, that occasional convenience would be off the table.
Also, it occurred to me that although I don't make a habit of landing at DFW, it is very nice when they bore me through the bravo to Grand Prairie where my Mom is in Assisted living. Without the ADS-B out, that occasional convenience would be off the table.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/av/adsb/transponder11-12038.php
According to the above sales pitch, this is a simple plug in replacement for my KT76A that provides 2020 compatibility. I read earlier in this thread that this solution would require additional wiring. Anyone know anything about this?
According to the above sales pitch, this is a simple plug in replacement for my KT76A that provides 2020 compatibility. I read earlier in this thread that this solution would require additional wiring. Anyone know anything about this?
bnt83
Final Approach
It is not "plug & play". You must break into the GPS connector and add a pair of wires to get GPS position data to the transponder.
AND
These need a separate stand alone switching device, that cannot be pilot manipulated, to determine air/ground mode. That's either gonna be a squat switch or airspeed switch.
That all assumes you have an acceptable data source, WAAS GPS with an appropriate software level.
Chances are I'd be replacing the belly antenna and coax too.
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Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
Short answer: Owner ADS-B decisions get pretty involved. This will go way beyond a message board string for you.
Be careful going with the budget buy. Some of the companies selling primarily ADS-B boxes may not be in business in 2021. I went with brand "G" for this reason, and the fact that it (GTX345) integrates nicely with the GTN650. Last time I did a major panel revamp, in 2002, the avionics shop talked me into a King panel including KLN94. Won't make that mistake again and will stick with the market leader.
I considered the Lynx -- it's a great looking little unit but in my view, the touchscreen display is impractical and offers limited value. You're going to want to see traffic on an iPad, or at least a reasonably sized modern IFR GPS display. Nowadays with iPads being as cheap as they are there's no reason not to offload some of your screen real estate from your panel to your portable device. The displays are far bigger, far less expensive, and far easier to use. I actually use two iPads in the cockpit, a Mini mounted on the yoke and a Pro for everything else. I use them both too. The Mini is a dedicated traffic display enroute and chart viewer on the approach. The Pro is for weather and flight plan updates. I have a Flightstream 510 so all of the Ipads stay updated automatically with any edits. Pretty slick, very easy.
I have had zero issues with my GTX345. It's not a very exciting box to have in the panel. It just sits there and works. Displays weather and traffic on my GTN650 and also my iPads. Also is an AHRS source, which for me is literally the 4th source of attitude information I have in my cockpit (a Garmin G5 + two vacuum ADIs are in the panel). I'm happy with it.
Be careful going with the budget buy. Some of the companies selling primarily ADS-B boxes may not be in business in 2021. I went with brand "G" for this reason, and the fact that it (GTX345) integrates nicely with the GTN650. Last time I did a major panel revamp, in 2002, the avionics shop talked me into a King panel including KLN94. Won't make that mistake again and will stick with the market leader.
I considered the Lynx -- it's a great looking little unit but in my view, the touchscreen display is impractical and offers limited value. You're going to want to see traffic on an iPad, or at least a reasonably sized modern IFR GPS display. Nowadays with iPads being as cheap as they are there's no reason not to offload some of your screen real estate from your panel to your portable device. The displays are far bigger, far less expensive, and far easier to use. I actually use two iPads in the cockpit, a Mini mounted on the yoke and a Pro for everything else. I use them both too. The Mini is a dedicated traffic display enroute and chart viewer on the approach. The Pro is for weather and flight plan updates. I have a Flightstream 510 so all of the Ipads stay updated automatically with any edits. Pretty slick, very easy.
I have had zero issues with my GTX345. It's not a very exciting box to have in the panel. It just sits there and works. Displays weather and traffic on my GTN650 and also my iPads. Also is an AHRS source, which for me is literally the 4th source of attitude information I have in my cockpit (a Garmin G5 + two vacuum ADIs are in the panel). I'm happy with it.
bnt83
Final Approach
That FS510 is slick, in theory you'll never wear out or damage the SD card slot because you won't be popping the card out every 28 days.
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Thanks for taking time to describe your first hand experience. All of it is helpful!
Back in 2002 I don't think Garmin was dominant the way it is now. The GNS 430 had only been on the market a few years, the 530 even less, and the WAAS versions were still in the future. If the rest of your panel was 1980s/1990s King maybe your shop did the right thing recommending the KLN94 at that time? Presumably it served you well until this latest upgrade to Garmin? Until it started building products that eventually earned it the reputation of having display problems King built tough, reliable avionics that lasted for decades, and there's something to be said for that in the world of GA.
Garmin has obviously done a lot of things right, but some of the other digital stuff out there seems on the fragile side for my comfort.
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Aztec Flyer
Does any of this FS technology work with the old GNS navigators, or only the new GTNs?
Ryan F.
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It only works with the GTN series Navigators.
I didn't mention that it also allows wireless updates of databases via Database Concierge, a feature of Garmin Pilot. Just hop in the plane with your iPad and upon startup it senses the databases and asks you if you'd like to install them. The future is now.
Ryan F.
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Good points, and it did serve me well, yes. I actually thought quite highly of the KLN-94 given the generation of avionics from which it was spawned, and its small form factor was beneficial given my limited panel real estate. My main beef was that it was non-upgradeable to WAAS. Had I gone with a Garmin 430 I could have gotten the 430W upgrade and kept on trucking -- I'm sure I would have gone that route had it been available. Instead the only reasonable option was to move forward a full generation and install a GTN 650. No complaints with that either, it's a really great unit, but I missed out of $5000 worth of value or so I'd have had if I'd gone with a GNS430 way back in the day instead of a KLN-94 and a KX-155.
The KX-155s were bullet-proof. Never a single issue with either one all this time. When I finally sold my second KX-155 to make way for the GTN650 it looked and performed as new.
bnt83
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James331
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Really? Was it that much work to pull a card to update it?
IMHO garmin should be focusing on making their ADSB systems safe (not sending sensitive info when set to 1200) over making things wireless for the sake of being wireless
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Ryan F.
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No, it wasn't, but it was work, and it was slow. I often show up to the plane with my family in tow ready to fly, so being able to get in and have the system auto-update is indeed a very nice feature. My kids and wife just get in the plane now instead of waiting for me to mess around with the DB updates.
Database concierge is a bonus add, though, and not the meat and potatoes of the FlightStream 510. My desire for the unit was to keep two iPads synced up with the GTN650. Now when I get a route update I make that change in Garmin Pilot on my iPad (Foreflight works too) and both the GTN and the other iPad update automatically. In a sense it extends the GTN onto the iPads and that is very much a powerful tool, and reduces workload significantly.
Pretty sure they're focused on that, not to worry.
Ryan F.
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Hmmm. I can see the price of my center stack upgrade just went up. Again.
The 210 is cool also, but no Database Concierge. Also it comes with installation costs whereas the 510 is just a plug and play. Don't know if that matters to you.
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Aztec Flyer
My plane is set up with GNS navigators and I am not going to change them out at this point. The 210 looks interesting primarily because it would be convenient to do the flight planning on the iPad before heading to the airport and upload into the GNS boxes.
Ryan F.
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Yep. That's another feature I forgot to mention. At home I'll do my flight planning on Garmin Pilot or FF, come out to the plane, and upload the flight plan. You'll enjoy that very much. One thing the 210 does that the 510 doesn't is AHRS by the way. So you'll get another little bonus there. I'd install the 210 if I had a GNS.
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I have been trying to wade through all the information I can find about ADS-B and all the various options for equipment. I have no desire to be an expert, but I believe the issue of privacy is related to whether one has Mode S, flies above 18,000 ft and therefore has to use a 1090ES solution for ADS-B Out compliance.
Both our personal airplanes don't go above 18,000 so technically we don't need 1090ES and can install 978 UAT instead. However there are apparently a few things to consider:
a) The major suppliers, such as Garmin, don't seem to want products that are limited by the 18k altitude differentiation, so it appears all their products are Mode S and 1090ES for Out compliance - no privacy option, and no indication they intend to build a second series of products for the low altitude GA market only.
b) Apparently not all 978 UAT solution suppliers are building their products with a private operating mode for VFR, so check the specs before buying.
c) The 978 UAT Out solution looks like it will only apply in the USA. If (when?) ADS-B Out starts to be implemented elsewhere it appears no other jurisdiction is going to go with dual frequencies and the cost of the ground repeaters as the USA has. I looks like it will be 1090ES only everywhere else.
Ryan F.
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From what I can tell, that's an accurate summary. You need ES for FL180+ and international operations, UAT is good for everything else. There are some options which are UAT only for your consideration.
It's rare but I've gotten my plane to FL190 before crossing the Rockies. I figured I'd just as soon get the full package and not ever worry about what I could and couldn't do with my airplane. The difference in price isn't all that much.
I frankly never considered the privacy aspect of ADS-B Out. I almost always fly IFR anyway. It's a valid point for consideration however.
denverpilot
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I've been having fun poking various ADS-B equipped aircraft tail numbers into FlightAware.
Very few people block their data, so as soon as the ADS-B system picks them up, even VFR, FlightAware is now sending out "aircraft was seen flying near XXX city at YY:YY."
It's a privacy disaster if you're not going to block your data or you're lying about when you're going flying or not.
I've caught folks who said they weren't flying that day, flying. LOL. So easy.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I suppose that I am giving away my naïveté, but why are people worried about privacy? What do they have to hide? I won't be flying for the CIA or the drug cartel, so folks can know where I have been and where I am going. No problem.
MBDiagMan
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Given that I am on the verge of buying a plane with a 430W, what will be my update method, a memory card?
Ryan F.
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Well, if I want to fly privately I just a callsign. Can block tails too with a BARR request... never bothered with my plane because I really don't care if people see where I go, and if there's a pressing need I'll use Gatorflight.
SoCal RV Flyer
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I'm watching the Uavionix website closely for ADS-B systems. Still under development, but the Echo works with a lot of existing transponders, has internal WAAS GPS, weighs 75 grams and ought to be the least expensive thing out there.
http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-atu-20/
http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-atu-20/
Jim_CAK
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Yes. Most people buy 2 cards. You keep one at home and update via a USB adapter connected to a computer. Then take it to the airport and swap them out on your next flight. The USB adapter is the blue Jep unit. The data card has the green label.
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Blueangel
Line Up and Wait
I really like the Garmin 345 and Lynx 9000 transponders a lot. Have tried both. If you already have WAAS with the 430 the Garmin 345 pairs nicely. Can display Nextgen Wx directly on the GPS too. If you don't have WAAS, splurging on the Lynx is quite nice for the many features missing from the 345 Garmin unit. For resale value, long term my bet is on Garmin products.
Ryan F.
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Garmin has proven to be a good bet. That's one of the reasons I went with brand G for my panel upgrade.
Rcmutz
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So, on the NavWorx box, do you know if it will work with a NARCO AT150? How do they get the information they need for ADS-B from that particular transponder? Is there a serial interface or do they need to put a "sniffer" over the cable leading to the transponder antenna?
Anyone know for sure. NavWorx just lowered the price of their ADS-B box to $1500.
Checkout_my_Six
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last I checked....the NavWorx box uses a sniffer clamped around the coax. So, the flavor of the transponder doesn't matter.
James331
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What's your DOB, home address, net worth, and when will you not be home?
Could you also please post some photos of your kids and their school schedule?
I mean you got nothing to hide right?
Well, if I want to fly privately I just a callsign. Can block tails too with a BARR request... never bothered with my plane because I really don't care if people see where I go, and if there's a pressing need I'll use Gatorflight.
That doesn't work, both the BARR request (which all my planes have been on, even at the source level) or the call sign, if you have ADSB or mode S, you're transmitting in the clear to any azzhat with a antenna, give me a blocked tailnumber and I'll tell you where it's been.