ADS-B Ignorant, Please Help with upgrade Options

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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I have largely been ignoring ADS-B given the time remaining until 2020 and the fact that I figured I would just not fly my little putt-putt into Bravo or Charlie airspace and just keep buzzing around the boondocks. Life changes, however, and I am in the process of buying a faster airplane and my mission is changing.

Since I haven't been following this, the thread titles, acronyms and various avionics model numbers are Greek to me at this point.

The plane I am buying has a very nice King panel with glide slope and DME, plus a 430. What am I faced with as options and expense to still be good come 2020?

Thanks for any comments and help, and also thanks for accommodating my ignorance on the subject.
 
High end option is Lynx 9000. Highly recommend. What transponder do you have? Is it a 430W?


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I am in the process of buying the aircraft so I don't have the equipment list at hand. I know it has a 430, but not sure exactly what model. I think all radio equipment, audio panel and transponder are all King.

Thanks for your response and interest!
 
I think the FAA has a good quick & dirty here. And Garmin has a "planner" here you might want to look at.

If you have a GNS-430W, you are money ahead!

An ADS-B Out transmitter alone will not be sufficient to meet the requirements outlined in 14 CFR 91.227. To comply with the requirements for the ADS-B Rule, the aircraft must be equipped with a Version 2 ADS-B Out transmitter and a compatible GPS Position Source. There are two ADS-B avionics systems available:

The FAA recommends a WAAS GPS that is compliant with TSO-C145 or TSO-C146. These units are readily available for general aviation and provide sufficient performance to meet the 14 CFR 91.227 requirements. Avionics vendors offer stand-alone GPS receivers and package them with ADS-B transmitters or with GPSNavigators. Mixing and matching GPS systems with ADS-B transmitters in the field is not permitted unless the equipment pairing was shown to be compatible via a previous certification effort with the FAA (for example, an STC). Be sure to contact your manufacturer if you are unsure which GPS systems are approved for your ADS-B transmitter.
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What's your budget? Huge driving factor.
 
My budget is the most reasonabl, good solution I can get. I guess that part of my question is "what will it cost?"
 
What airspace do you operate in? Do you need ADSB?

Ether way I'd wait till 2020.
 
Need more specifics on current hardware to put a plan together. Very affordable options out there.
 
One of the folks you need to have a chat with is Trevor at Tech Aero here in Denton. He is one of the best avionics shops in the region. He does the work on our two aircraft, Troy Whistman used him, and many others. Best option is to set an appointment to visit in person and discuss what it is you want to accomplish, some ideas of what equipment, and budget. He can definitely guide you into what are good solid purchases and what equipment to avoid.

On learning what all of this is about and why it's important, AOPA has some really good resources and online lessons.

For the equipment, the two major players currently are the Garmin GTX345 and the L-3 NGT-9000 Lynx.

The Garmin unit's advantage is (1) it will connect with Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight and display ADS-B details on those EFB's; (2) it will connect with many of the Garmin Navigators and display Traffic and Weather.

The Lynx is not just a transponder, but also a full ADS-B receiver with ability to display on the face of the unit Traffic, Weather, TFR's, NOTAMS, METARs TAFs, and much more. It won't connect with ForeFlight, but I think it will connect with WingX.

There are a few "second tier" units that have promise, but aren't getting as much market interest.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am in the process of buying the aircraft so I don't have the equipment list at hand. I know it has a 430, but not sure exactly what model. I think all radio equipment, audio panel and transponder are all King.

Thanks for your response and interest!
Click to expand...

A lot will depend on whether the 430 is WAAS or not. If it is, it can be used as the position source for ADS-B Out (Out is all you need to be compliant on 01/01/20). If not, it is expensive to do the WAAS upgrade to it, so a transponder with a built in WAAS compliant GPS such as the L3 Lynx 9000 series or the Garmin GTX-3X5 series may make more sense (but will require a second GPS antenna on the plane). Another decision is if you want the ADS-B In data and if you want it integrated with the ADS-B Out box and panel display.
No it's not a simple decision...unless budget is not an issue. In which case just buy a new Cirrus and be done with it. :D ;)
 
I wouldn't buy an airplane, I'd settle on a price, without knowing if it a. 430 or 430w. Big difference, find out!


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GRG55 said:
A lot will depend on whether the 430 is WAAS or not. If it is, it can be used as the position source for ADS-B Out (Out is all you need to be compliant on 01/01/20). If not, it is expensive to do the WAAS upgrade to it, so a transponder with a built in WAAS compliant GPS such as the L3 Lynx 9000 series or the Garmin GTX-3X5 series may make more sense (but will require a second GPS antenna on the plane). Another decision is if you want the ADS-B In data and if you want it integrated with the ADS-B Out box and panel display.
No it's not a simple decision...unless budget is not an issue. In which case just buy a new Cirrus and be done with it. :D ;)
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and if you have an approved GPS source like the WAAS 430W....there are many other cheaper options.

NavWorx (when they get their dispute with the FAA resolved - they will IMHO)
FreeFlight
KT74
Trig Trio transponder
 
GRG55 said:
A lot will depend on whether the 430 is WAAS or not. If it is, it can be used as the position source for ADS-B Out (Out is all you need to be compliant on 01/01/20). If not, it is expensive to do the WAAS upgrade to it, so a transponder with a built in WAAS compliant GPS such as the L3 Lynx 9000 series or the Garmin GTX-3X5 series may make more sense (but will require a second GPS antenna on the plane). Another decision is if you want the ADS-B In data and if you want it integrated with the ADS-B Out box and panel display.
No it's not a simple decision...unless budget is not an issue. In which case just buy a new Cirrus and be done with it. :D ;)
Click to expand...

Expensive, somewhat, it's about 3k to WAAS a box, but you get complementary v nav, LPV, etc, which is more value than most ADSB boxes can provide.
 
Okie Dokie!! I found the entries in the logs for the airplane that I am currently in the process of getting in for a prebuy inspection. The equipment installed in March 2009 was: GNS430W, GA35 antenna and GI 106A NAV Indicator.

I fully expected that it would be a WAAS version. I can't understand why anyone would bother installing a non WAAS version since you can't fly approaches with it as I understand.

Mike, thanks for your reccomendation for Tech Aero. I think I met him when he was broken down in Bonham one time several years ago. Right now I am in the evaluation phase, just trying to get an idea how much it will cost before the 2020 mandate arrives. If it is in the $3K range, if the prebuy confirms my judgment of this airplane, it will be well worth such a modification.

Thanks to all!
 
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According to logs, transponder is KT76A. It was replaced in2009 so I will look for more recent entries.

Again, thanks for the help.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I have largely been ignoring ADS-B given the time remaining until 2020 and the fact that I figured I would just not fly my little putt-putt into Bravo or Charlie airspace and just keep buzzing around the boondocks. Life changes, however, and I am in the process of buying a faster airplane and my mission is changing.

Since I haven't been following this, the thread titles, acronyms and various avionics model numbers are Greek to me at this point.

The plane I am buying has a very nice King panel with glide slope and DME, plus a 430. What am I faced with as options and expense to still be good come 2020?

Thanks for any comments and help, and also thanks for accommodating my ignorance on the subject.
Click to expand...

My suggestion is for you to go to an avionics shop and listen to what they have to say. POA is a scattergun approach that will not address your specific needs.

Bob Gardner
 
MBDiagMan said:
According to logs, transponder is KT76A. It was replaced in2009 so I will look for more recent entries.

Again, thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
the KT74 is an easy slide in (ADS-B out with ES)....with some additional wire-up needed at install. It's on my short list. I have a KT76A also.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I fully expected that it would be a WAAS version. I can't understand why anyone would bother installing a non WAAS version since you can't fly approaches with it as I understand.
Click to expand...

The reason there would be a non WAAS version is that it was installed before there was such a thing as a WAAS version.


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AggieMike88 said:
...


For the equipment, the two major players currently are the Garmin GTX345 and the L-3 NGT-9000 Lynx.

The Garmin unit's advantage is (1) it will connect with Garmin Pilot and ForeFlight and display ADS-B details on those EFB's; (2) it will connect with many of the Garmin Navigators and display Traffic and Weather.
Click to expand...

Mike, you missed a big advantage of the 345. It provides attitude data to ForeFlight, so you have that as a backup if you ever need it.

If you don't have a WAAS GPS like the 430W you can add a dedicated WAAS box for the 345 (as you can with pretty much all of them). If you altitude encoder ever dies Garmin makes a miniature encoder that plugs into the back of the 345 and costs about $250.

Since the Linux and Garmin 345 control ADS-B from the transponder panel, you don't need a separate ADS-B control head, as many others required.

Our club has one airplane with the 345 and one with the Freeflight. Both support Foreflight and work just fine.

If you have a 430W the traffic display is of limited use because the 430W only displays traffic on a dedicated screen, not on the map displays.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I fully expected that it would be a WAAS version. I can't understand why anyone would bother installing a non WAAS version since you can't fly approaches with it as I understand.
Click to expand...

You can fly lots of non-precision GPS approaches with a non-WAAS GPS, as long as it is approved for enroute and terminal operations. TSO-C-129a certified GPS with a POH supplement and a field approval is all you need. I fly LNAV approaches behind a KLN-94 frequently. And, its every bit as good as a localizer non-precision approach as long as RAIM is up.

Its just that the GNS 430W, in addition to VNAV and LPV capability, is an approved ADS-B out position source. That puts you money ahead for sure!
 
MBDiagMan said:
. I can't understand why anyone would bother installing a non WAAS version since you can't fly approaches with it as I understand.
Click to expand...

Actually you can shoot most approaches with a non WAAS, just not a few of the more precise GPS approaches, like a LPV


bobmrg said:
My suggestion is for you to go to an avionics shop and listen to what they have to say. POA is a scattergun approach that will not address your specific needs.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Just keep in mind the only reason avionics shops exist is to SELL avionics.



JimNtexas said:
If you don't have a WAAS GPS like the 430W you can add a dedicated WAAS box for the 345 (as you can with pretty much all of them).
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you take that money and put it towards a WAAS upgrade?
 
Lots of stuff being cleared up with all your responses.

I feel good knowing that 202 compliance can be had for a few thousand bucks. I will wait until early 2019 before doing the mod to wait and see what technology might make itself available during that time. I don't want to wait until the last minute for fear of ending up in a long line at the radio shop.

Thanks again for the information. You guys are great!
 
If you want to use Trevor, now is the time to book a slot at his shop. He recently told us that in early fall, he was filling slots that were 3 months away, but now is booking 6-months out. And fully expects to get busier as the deadline approaches. So don't wait until the last moment.
 
Thanks Mike! I may very well get in line, but I need to get past the prebuy and purchase first. Then I will talk to him and maybe get in line. It should be no surprise that if I get through this purchase, I will be doing nothing other than burning Avgas for a month or so until the new wears off. No time for leaving the plane at the radio shop. Of course a flight over there will be a good excuse to burn Avgas.:)

I have reread this thread and realized that there is an unanswered question. I retired early last year and will now be doing some traveling. I probably won't be going into bravo, but I expect to be going into Charlie. In addition, I feel that taking advantage of next generation will make us safer.
 
It's not just bravo it's the whole 30mile mode c veil.


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MBDiagMan said:
Thanks Mike! I may very well get in line, but I need to get past the prebuy and purchase first. Then I will talk to him and maybe get in line. It should be no surprise that if I get through this purchase, I will be doing nothing other than burning Avgas for a month or so until the new wears off. No time for leaving the plane at the radio shop. Of course a flight over there will be a good excuse to burn Avgas.:)

I have reread this thread and realized that there is an unanswered question. I retired early last year and will now be doing some traveling. I probably won't be going into bravo, but I expect to be going into Charlie. In addition, I feel that taking advantage of next generation will make us safer.
Click to expand...

I'd find a diffrent shop, sounds like he's ether trying to build urgency for his sale, or he isn't running his business very well. Last I spoke with Craig about some avionics stuff I wanted done, and it wasn't ADSB, he said he could get me done in a little under a month from when I called.
 
Thanks for the further useful responses. Being that it covers the 30 mile veil changes the picture for me. A couple of common stops are under that veil. Thanks very much for that.
 
James331 said:
I'd find a diffrent shop, sounds like he's ether trying to build urgency for his sale, or he isn't running his business very well. Last I spoke with Craig about some avionics stuff I wanted done, and it wasn't ADSB, he said he could get me done in a little under a month from when I called.
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Not true on any of the points, inappropriate that you make such an accusation without talking to him nor seeing his place.
 
Sure it is.

Ether he's trying to rush folks into reserving a place "in line"

Or he can't figure out that he needs to bring on more workers for the amount of business he has.

Ether way not ideal.
 
gsengle said:
It's not just bravo it's the whole 30mile mode c veil.
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There is an excellent Google Earth data map available from the FAA, check it to make sure you need ADS-B in 2020. Unless you need to go inside major metropolitan areas you don't need ADS-B.
 
I want to get my GNS530 upgraded and then an ADS-B in/out solution that doesn't cost 5k like the GTX345. I wanted the Navworx box but....
 
James331 said:
Expensive, somewhat, it's about 3k to WAAS a box, but you get complementary v nav, LPV, etc, which is more value than most ADSB boxes can provide.
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I just did my 530. Garmin flat rates the upgrade, and it is same price of almost $4,000 regardless of whether it's a 430 or 530.
 
GRG55 said:
I just did my 530. Garmin flat rates the upgrade, and it is same price of almost $4,000 regardless of whether it's a 430 or 530.
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Good to know!!! They need to have an 80% discount so I can afford to get that done...
 
ircphoenix said:
I want to get my GNS530 upgraded and then an ADS-B in/out solution that doesn't cost 5k like the GTX345. I wanted the Navworx box but....
Click to expand...


Stratus ESG would be cheaper, there was a guy trying to sell one in the classifies just recently.
 
ircphoenix said:
I won't touch appareo. Stratus is most incredible sham I've ever seen. Their markup on their equipment is insane.
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Every avionics dealer just pointed an laughed. They are all marked up like crazy.
 
bnt83 said:
Every avionics dealer just pointed an laughed. They are all marked up like crazy.
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Sure. But at least they can make the argument that their stuff is certified and TSO'd and PMA'd and STC'd and yadda yadda yadda. A portable Stratus isn't. 100 bucks worth of equipment and labor marked up 700%.
 
ircphoenix said:
Good to know!!! They need to have an 80% discount so I can afford to get that done...
Click to expand...

No kidding. I think Garmin originally charged $1500 for this, but the price has climbed steadily through the years.

It is a significant upgrade though. New processor (5 times faster position update), new software, new antenna to replace the non-WAAS one on your plane. Looks like they refurbished or replaced the faceplate on mine as it came back looking like it was brand new.

But that is just the start. Now the hunt is on for the right ADS-B xponder. Garmin 3X5 are more expensive to purchase than some options, but with the price of labour today going with a known/proven plug&play combo might be the least expensive installed alternative.
 
Just got a 345 to replace my 330ES. So far, traffic on the ipad works very nicely.
 
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