Adel clamps vs. tie-wraps

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bikes2fly

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bikes2fly
May those plastic tie-wraps be used in some applications when routing wiring or lightweight hoses in the accessory section (forward of the firewall) by creating either a standoff when they run parallel, or directly when they cross?

Is there someplace online where one can find the "Best Practices" (or whatever it's called) to look this sort of thing up myself?
Thanks!
 
People use cable ties all the time, there is an MS for them.
They are not ideal.
They cannot take the heat of an engine compartment forever.
Concentrated pressure in a small area can damage hoses or wires.
They can eat through engine mount tubing.
Cushioned clamps (of which Adel is a brand) are better.
 
Certified aircraft must comply with AC43.13, chapter 11, section 9 regarding supports, stand offs and bundling. I've seen aircraft with zip ties used to create a "stand-off" of sorts when wires run parallel to hoses. But, its generally frowned on. the accepted method is a couple of Adel clamps with a standoff between them. Generally, zip-ties forward of the firewall are frowned on.
 
Not a fan of zip ties, they cause wear
 
Never use them to secure something to the oil return tubes on a Lycoming. They will eat through those tubes in no time.
 
I had my head under the panel over the weekend and yes, I have wires zip tied to the oil pressure line... so this weekend will change that!..
 
One of the cool things I learned in AMT classes was the use and tying of lacing cord to secure wiring between clamps.

Cheers
 
Pratt and Whitney uses Tefzel ty-raps all over the F-135 engine...I will admit that we keep the engine bay under the 348 deg F continuous limitation tho...
 
I used Adel clamps for the bulk of my FWF wiring, but also have used Mil-Spec tie wraps (rated to 238 F) in a few places, including bundling the CHT/EGT probe wires near the exhaust, and no problems. When you secure a wire(s) to the engine mount with tie wraps, first wrap the tube with that silicone "rescue tape" to prevent chafing. Works like a charm!
 
FTW

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Accept no substitute
 
Where ever you use them and clip off the protruding end, put a dab of silicone where you cut off the end to cover the remaining sharp edges. Mechanics working on the plane in the future will appreciate you for the cuts they did not get.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
I used Adel clamps for the bulk of my FWF wiring, but also have used Mil-Spec tie wraps (rated to 238 F) in a few places, including bundling the CHT/EGT probe wires near the exhaust, and no problems. When you secure a wire(s) to the engine mount with tie wraps, first wrap the tube with that silicone "rescue tape" to prevent chafing. Works like a charm!
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So does threading it thru a tiny rubber hose from ACE hardware. Never directly to any hard tube.
 
If you use nail clippers the ends will be rounded off and not cut people. Or if you use small snap on flush cut cutters that will also get rid of the sharp edges.
 
For what it's worth, my plane has loads of tie wraps FWF. Every shop it has ever been in has used them. I have read the horror stories about them on the internet and since then I have inspected for chafing and wearing. I have them on my engine mount, hoses, wires, etc. Since I do a lot of my own work and I assist in the annual, I check it regularly. So far, the tie wraps haven't even worn the paint off the the engine mount much less any metal.

I only fly my plane about 50 hours a year, so it gets looked at a lot for the amount of hours flown. Maybe planes that go 200 hours a year it's worse, I don't know. For me however, since I am involved in what goes on under the cowling and observe with my own eyes, I so far have no beef with tie wraps. I have also noticed that there is no failure from heat in either white, or black. My preference is to use black FWF.
 
I use both. If I want to support any weight, it's got to be a metal Adelle clamp. If I'm just holding a bundle together or securing the spacers to keep 2 bundles apart or away from structure to protect from chafing, I'm ok with a tywrap. Wire tie cord is OK for holding wire bundles together, but takes a lot more time to install and can be impossible to work with in tight situations. I believe the mil spec for an 8" tywrap specs sets the strength at 50 (corrected) lbs and I'm sure that's valid within some temp range, a metal Adelle clamp will be mechanically much stronger.

In as much as my day job is supporting part 25 aircraft, I'm very aware of the FAA guidance for (electrical wire interconnect system) EWIS, and it makes sense to me to apply the same principles where practical on a part 23 aircraft. If you google FAA & EWIS you can find all sorts of best practices guides.
 
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Dav8or said:
For what it's worth, my plane has loads of tie wraps FWF. Every shop it has ever been in has used them. I have read the horror stories about them on the internet and since then I have inspected for chafing and wearing. I have them on my engine mount, hoses, wires, etc. Since I do a lot of my own work and I assist in the annual, I check it regularly. So far, the tie wraps haven't even worn the paint off the the engine mount much less any metal.

I only fly my plane about 50 hours a year, so it gets looked at a lot for the amount of hours flown. Maybe planes that go 200 hours a year it's worse, I don't know. For me however, since I am involved in what goes on under the cowling and observe with my own eyes, I so far have no beef with tie wraps. I have also noticed that there is no failure from heat in either white, or black. My preference is to use black FWF.
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I think lots of shop use them, for the same reason lots of stereo shops use buttcrimp connectors vs solder and heat shrink tubing, it's easy and customers ether don't know better or just accept it.

I've seen places where zip ties have worn through wire, metal injector tubing, I've seen other areas where it's done nothing.

For my own machine, with the places I fly and the risks of a failure, it's not worth the small time savings to me.
 
Everything has to be maintained. I've seen Adel type clamps do more damage to aluminum tubes and wiring due to damaged rubber or abrasives getting under the rubber than zip ties ever have done.
 
Anything I have ties on gets wrapped in silicone tape first.
Then:

Tefzel (Fluoropolymer) Cable Ties
• Made from Tefzel (Fluoropolymer)
• Temperature Rating: -50°F to 302°F
• Flammability Rating: UL 94 V-2

• Ideal for applications requiring resistance to environmental stresses such as chemical attack, gamma radiation, ultraviolet radiation and extreme temperatures.
• Distinctive Aqua blue color.
• Are ideal for use in nuclear power facilities and chemical processing plants.
 
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Rob58 said:
What's the difference between the nylon and polyester lacing cord? Why use one versus the other?
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Temperature limits. If you have to buy one, get the polyester, as it goes from -100F - 350F, rather than nylon, which has the range from -67F to 250F. Or, if cost is no object, get the Nomex or glass, which ranges from -67F - 500 or 800F.

http://www.atkinsandpearce.com/wire-cable-solutions/lacing-tapes-cords/

There are some strength considerations too.

As far as zip ties go, here are the specs on those:
Tefzel (by the way, you can use these in your home nuclear reactor too...)
http://www.panduit.com/heiler/CatalogCutSheets/D-CTCC1--WW-ENG-PLT1M-C76.pdf
http://www.panduit.com/en/product/PLT2S-C76

Nylon ties (not for use in your personal reactor or gamma ray source, but airplanes... OK)
http://www.panduit.com/en/products-...-cable-ties-one-piece/wide-grip-ties/SG100M-C
 
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Graueradler said:
Where ever you use them and clip off the protruding end, put a dab of silicone where you cut off the end to cover the remaining sharp edges. Mechanics working on the plane in the future will appreciate you for the cuts they did not get.
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The only proper way to cut the ends of "zip ties" is to use flush cutting diagonal cutting pliars, and cut square and flush. Then there is no need for the silicone.
 
True. And by now everyone performing maintenance should know about the dangers in working with/around cotter pins, safety wire, zip ties, etc.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Everything has to be maintained. I've seen Adel type clamps do more damage to aluminum tubes and wiring due to damaged rubber or abrasives getting under the rubber than zip ties ever have done.
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Adel clamps that aren't tight on whatever tube they're on will abrade things, alright, and so will nylon zip ties. It's the dirt that does the abrading, dirt that embeds itself in the softer material of the nylon or the clamp cushion. I have had nylon ties leave their little teeth marks in engine mount tubing, deep enough that the mount had to be rebuilt.

In the 1970s nylon air brake line came out and began to replace the copper air lines formerly used on trucks and heavy equipment. It was great stuff; cheaper than copper, didn't work-harden, cut it with a knife. Then a trucker showed me the half-inch-deep notch worn into the heat-treated steel frame rail of his new truck, done by that nylon tubing and the dust of the logging roads.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Adel clamps that aren't tight on whatever tube they're on will abrade things, alright, and so will nylon zip ties. It's the dirt that does the abrading, dirt that embeds itself in the softer material of the nylon or the clamp cushion. I have had nylon ties leave their little teeth marks in engine mount tubing, deep enough that the mount had to be rebuilt.

In the 1970s nylon air brake line came out and began to replace the copper air lines formerly used on trucks and heavy equipment. It was great stuff; cheaper than copper, didn't work-harden, cut it with a knife. Then a trucker showed me the half-inch-deep notch worn into the heat-treated steel frame rail of his new truck, done by that nylon tubing and the dust of the logging roads.
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See! How cool are forums when REAL experiences and knowledge are shared versus the neverending, and often useless, blah, blah blah opinions.....! Love the real stuff, thank you Dan.
 
When I use tie wraps, they must be the type with a stainless steel locking tang and the appropriate temperature rating for the intended use. The metal locking tang is much stronger IMO.

As mentioned above, I also use the flush cut type trimmers. It's amazing how badly an improperly cut tie wrap end can cut a finger or hand.

It's also kinda funny how everyone has an opinion on how everything is to be done, and it seems just about everyone asserts their method is the correct one. :D
 
3393RP said:
It's also kinda funny how everyone has an opinion on how everything is to be done, and it seems just about everyone asserts their method is the correct one. :D
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That's the main reason the FAA requires Annual inspections, and makes A&Ps and-IAs
 
3393RP said:
It's also kinda funny how everyone has an opinion on how everything is to be done, and it seems just about everyone asserts their method is the correct one. :D
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If an OEM does something a certain way does that make it right or wrong? Is that the only way to do it? Or are the mechanics and aircraft owners asserting that their way is the correct one smarter than the OEMs? :)

For what it's worth, the few new or nearly new airplanes I've worked on have had no wire ties strapped to anything, from the firewall forward. That doesn't mean they didn't use wire ties, it just means that they only used them to bundle wires or hoses, not secure them to something. I've chosen to follow their lead and will not use wire ties to secure anything to an engine mount or other piece of hardware.

Personal opinion, but I feel that wire ties are over used by mechanics because they're convenient. Unless you're working in a bigger shop I haven't run into too many mechanics or shops that stock much in the way of Adel clamps so I suspect the wire ties get used because they're available and it will keep the project moving forward. The same is true for hardware, I've seen an awful lot of stuff that has the wrong hardware in it, likely because the correct hardware was not available at the time the project was done.
 
bikes2fly said:
May those plastic tie-wraps be used in some applications when routing wiring or lightweight hoses in the accessory section (forward of the firewall) by creating either a standoff when they run parallel, or directly when they cross?

Is there someplace online where one can find the "Best Practices" (or whatever it's called) to look this sort of thing up myself?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
They can eat through engine mount tubing? Wow!
 
mondtster said:
Personal opinion, but I feel that wire ties are over used by mechanics because they're convenient. Unless you're working in a bigger shop I haven't run into too many mechanics or shops that stock much in the way of Adel clamps so I suspect the wire ties get used because they're available and it will keep the project moving forward.
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Don't write off the poor, unsung tie wrap simply because it is easy to use. While Adels are the go-to method for bigger bundles, I typically reach for the tie wraps when there are only one or two wires to secure to the mount. Using an Adel clamp gets pretty fussy at this point.

Use a wrap of that silicone friction tape before tie-wrapping, and cinch it down tight enough to eliminate any movement. The attachment method will outlast the rest of the airframe.
 
Commercial airliners use cable ties by the tons. On Boeings they are not permitted outside pressurized areas. For GA FWF they have their purpose but primary support of any bundle should be Adel clams. For tension and cutoff I use one of these.

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