AATD simulator for Night Currency?

justin jiron

justin jiron

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Punkwood2k
Can a full-motion Redbird AATD sim be used for our 3 Night Landings currency?

I cant get a definitive answer on this, as our instructors are split about 50/50 on this?...

CFR 61.57 says...

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and -

(2) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a full flight simulator that is -
(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph (b)(1) of this section; and
(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

This seems pretty cut & dry to me, but others say absolutely not.. Has anyone ever settled this? Is there an Advisory Circular out there about this?
 
Is the Redbird AATD a full flight simulator approved for takeoffs and landings, operated by a Part 142 training center under an approved Part 142 course?
 
I don’t mean to distract from getting an interpretation of the regs and getting your answer, but practically speaking, will the sim give you the experience you need if you’re truly doing it for currency, which is meant in the name of safety? <Whether 3 full stop TO/LD at night deems us safe enough is a different debate.> It’s a different visual environment up there at night and I’m wondering how well that translates in a sim.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I don’t mean to distract from getting an interpretation of the regs and getting your answer, but practically speaking, will the sim give you the experience you need if you’re truly doing it for currency, which is meant in the name of safety? <Whether 3 full stop TO/LD at night deems us safe enough is a different debate.> It’s a different visual environment up there at night and I’m wondering how well that translates in a sim.
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That’s one reason the reg is so specific about which sims can be used.

OP…obviously 50% of your instructors are wrong, and with that high a ratio, I’d bet they don’t work for a Part 142 school (such as FlightSafety or Simuflite) with approved programs.
 
As someone with plenty of Redbird AATD time in the logs:

It sucks as soon as its not flying.

If you can determine it to be legal, however, fine. But just know it sucks.
 
Redbird AATD is not a full flight simulator. That why it’s called an Advance Aeronautical Training Device.

§ 1.1 General definitions.
Full flight simulator (FFS) means a replica of a specific type; or make, model, and series aircraft cockpit. It includes the assemblage of equipment and computer programs necessary to represent aircraft operations in ground and flight conditions, a visual system providing an out-of-the-cockpit view, a system that provides cues at least equivalent to those of a three-degree-of-freedom motion system, and has the full range of capabilities of the systems installed in the device as described in part 60 of this chapter and the qualification performance standards (QPS) for a specific FFS qualification level.
 
The CFI’s shouldn’t be guessing what the AATD can be used for, the FAA issues a letter of authorization that specifies what that AATD can be used for. The LOA is required to be available in a location near the AATD when it is in use and a copy provided to any person using it for credit for pilot certification or ratings.

As far as I know, no AATD is approved for credit for any required landings.
 
Wheels said:
The CFI’s shouldn’t be guessing what the AATD can be used for, the FAA issues a letter of authorization that specifies what that AATD can be used for. The LOA is required to be available in a location near the AATD when it is in use and a copy provided to any person using it for credit for pilot certification or ratings.

As far as I know, no AATD is approved for credit for any required landings.
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The CFIs should also know what Part of 14CFR they’re training under.

unfortunately CFIs are not known for reading and understanding regs any more than the general pilot population.
 
I just did night currency last week. How could a simulator truly recreate the night GA experience. There is no "all in" penalty if you screw up so its hard to believe a sim would get the pulse racing or adrenaline going. We did full motion sims in the navy (subs) which were great when other crew had the boat but nothing was at stake like the real deal.
 
Your 50/50 CFIs don't know how to read the definitions section of the FARs. This one isn't even grey. An AATD is not a "full flight simulator". A FFS is the type of thing they train airline pilots on, and do type ratings in business jets. Not something down the hall at your local FBO.

They exactly replicate a real make and model of airplane, literally right down to the serial number it's supposed to represent (for when small changes were made between serial numbers). The flight controls, panel, switches, knobs, etc, are all exactly like the real thing. It's actually pretty amazing the level of detail put into most of these things.
 
Rgbeard said:
As someone with plenty of Redbird AATD time in the logs:

It sucks as soon as its not flying.

If you can determine it to be legal, however, fine. But just know it sucks.
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In my experience, they suck when they're flying too.
 
Sinistar said:
I just did night currency last week. How could a simulator truly recreate the night GA experience. There is no "all in" penalty if you screw up so its hard to believe a sim would get the pulse racing or adrenaline going. We did full motion sims in the navy (subs) which were great when other crew had the boat but nothing was at stake like the real deal.
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You did night currency in June? Up North?

cool!!! You need to be dedicated to have night currency in June
 
RussR said:
Your 50/50 CFIs don't know how to read the definitions section of the FARs. This one isn't even grey. An AATD is not a "full flight simulator". A FFS is the type of thing they train airline pilots on, and do type ratings in business jets. Not something down the hall at your local FBO.
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The knowledge gap goes well beyond that. The post quotes

The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a full flight simulator that is -
(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings​

and goes on to say it seems "cut & dry" (apparently meaning "yes you can"). Even if one accepts that a CFI teaching in a Redbird doesn't understand the difference among FFS, FTD, AATD, and BATD (that does not surprise me), "Simulation 101" is that the use of any device for anything is subject to the permissions and limitations of its approval document. It's basically the device's POH Section 2.
 
justin jiron said:
Can a full-motion Redbird AATD sim be used for our 3 Night Landings currency?

I cant get a definitive answer on this, as our instructors are split about 50/50 on this?...

CFR 61.57 says...

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and -

(2) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a full flight simulator that is -
(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph (b)(1) of this section; and
(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

This seems pretty cut & dry to me, but others say absolutely not.. Has anyone ever settled this? Is there an Advisory Circular out there about this?
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I think you're about to find out which half of your instructors you can trust.
 
I did it once at my annual Flight Safety re-cur training. I was out of night qual due to scheduling issues. The first bad omen was that the sim operator was from our training dept. (Flight Safety let us do it because we were a good customer.) Norm and I had a history in the cockpit together over the years. Familiarity breeds contempt. We were on the last session, and I asked him to sneak in a night qual after all the "rat killing" was done. He set me up for a 20-25 mile final on one of the ILS's at KIAH and "dialed" it to midnight. Then he made the wx to be 200 & 1/4 and said "ready for the first one?" I had barely started in when he blew up one of my engines. Then he set me on fire. Next landing, he failed an inverter, then the hydraulics and I had to extend the gear manually. I don't recall the disasters he threw at me on the third and last one. I expected to just do three VFR landings.
 
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Rgbeard said:
You did night currency in June? Up North?

cool!!! You need to be dedicated to have night currency in June
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I just did mine on the longest day of the year. I’m in florida, but still, had to get up at 4 am to get it done.
 
luvflyin said:
I think you're about to find out which half of your instructors you can trust.
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Not sure you can go by that. Especially not sure you can assume the ones that were right are right about everything (or anything) else.
 
Maxnr said:
I did it once at my annual Flight Safety re-cur training. I was out of night qual due to scheduling issues. The first bad omen was that the sim operator was from our training dept. (Flight Safety let us do it because we were a good customer.) Norm and I had a history in the cockpit together over the years. Familiarity breeds contempt. We were on the last session, and I asked him to sneak in a night qual after all the "rat killing" was done. He set me up for a 20-25 mile final on one of the ILS's at KIAH and "dialed" it to midnight. Then he made the wx to be 200 & 1/4 and said "ready for the first one?" I had barely started in when he blew up one of my engines. Then he set me on fire. Next landing, he failed an inverter, then the hydraulics and I had to extend the gear manually. I don't recall the disasters he threw at me on the third and last one.
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And after all that you still weren’t legal because you didn’t do the required night takeoff at the beginning. ;)
 
Salty said:
Not sure you can go by that. Especially not sure you can assume the ones that were right are right about everything (or anything) else.
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Yeah. That was a little broad. I should of said 'I think you're about to find out which half of your instructors are right' instead of "...I think you're about to find out which half of your instructors you can trust..."
 
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Salty said:
And after all that you still weren’t legal because you didn’t do the required night takeoff at the beginning. ;)
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Did it the end. Landing, TO, Landing, TO, Landing, TO, Shut down and coffee. Its a sim.
 
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