A/FD recommended takeoff and landing runways

[CC268]

A lot of airports (KSEZ, KTVL, etc) recommend taking off one runway and landing on another due to various reasons (rising terrain, etc).

My guess is anything over a 5 knot tailwind and you would want to use the prevailing wind runway. What are your guys' recommendations on this?

I fly a Cherokee 140

 

[tinerj]

Depends on the airplane, length of runway, on the reason, and pilot skill. For me, in my taildragger, I prefer not to land tailwind of more than 4 mph. On the other hand, with a poor climb rate because of weight, density altitude, short runway, height of obstruction, I might not want to take off regardless of headwind or tailwind.

I wouldn't land if I couldn't land safely, and I wouldn't land if I couldn't take off safely.

 

[CC268]

So a decent example is Lake Tahoe right now (KTVL). I am actually here scoping it out since I am in Lake Tahoe (I didn't fly here though). AFD says preferred runway to land is 18 and take off 36. However in this case it's 20 knots almost directly down 36. So I would clearly take off runway 36, but your into rising terrain (although you have the pass for US50 so you'd be alright)

 

[murphey]

So a decent example is Lake Tahoe right now (KTVL). I am actually here scoping it out since I am in Lake Tahoe (I didn't fly here though). AFD says preferred runway to land is 18 and take off 36. However in this case it's 20 knots almost directly down 36. So I would clearly take off runway 36, but your into rising terrain (although you have the pass for US50 so you'd be alright)

But can you climb rapidly enough to safely make the pass?

 

[CC268]

But can you climb rapidly enough to safely make the pass?

Yep that's a question I'd have to ask for sure. I couldnt really see how high or low the pass is. I wouldn't do it this time of the day in summer

 

[murphey]

Yep that's a question I'd have to ask for sure. I couldnt really see how high or low the pass is. I wouldn't do it this time of the day in summer

Why not consider Minden, instead? Cheaper gas, lower alt, multiple runways.

 

[CC268]

Why not consider Minden, instead? Cheaper gas, lower alt, multiple runways.

Absolutely but it is beautiful here and it would be totally doable in the cooler temps! Saw a Cherokee fly over yesterday that took off from Lake Tahoe.It would be awesome experience to fly into places like this.

But anyways I didn't mean to make this about Tahoe it was more about taking off and landing with a tailwind. Sedona is a great example of this as I know many people take off 21 even if there is a bit of a tailwind (less than 5 knots probably)

 

[kgruber]

I routinely ignore "calm" wind runways..................especially hot and high. Downhill.....into the wind!!!!!

 

[Palmpilot]

But can you climb rapidly enough to safely make the pass?

The last time I departed there in a 182, I found it necessary to spiral upward before crossing that pass.

 

[CC268]

The last time I departed there in a 182, I found it necessary to spiral upward before crossing that pass.

That's good info to know

 

[CC268]

My dad flew our Cherokee 140 to big bear, but it was in November. He had no issues with it though.

 

[Palmpilot]

So a decent example is Lake Tahoe right now (KTVL). I am actually here scoping it out since I am in Lake Tahoe (I didn't fly here though). AFD says preferred runway to land is 18 and take off 36. However in this case it's 20 knots almost directly down 36. So I would clearly take off runway 36, but your into rising terrain (although you have the pass for US50 so you'd be alright)

Runway 36 takes you AWAY from the rising terrain, not into it.

If the wind is favoring 18, for light aircraft there's room to turn crosswind and downwind for a departure to the north.

 

[CC268]

Runway 36 takes you AWAY from the rising terrain, not into it.

If the wind is favoring 18, for light aircraft there's room to turn crosswind and downwind for a departure to the north.

I apologize I have that switched...I meant 18. Yea AFD says right downwind departure is recommended

 

[Palmpilot]

The last time I departed Big Bear, it was on a summer afternoon. The wind was favoring an eastbound takeoff, and I was planning to turn downwind and climb over the lake. However, once I got off the ground, since my climb rate was anemic, I decided that that much turning was not a good idea, so I made a slight left turn to climb over the meadow that was helpfully mentioned on a sign in the runup area. I don't remember whether I was in a Skyhawk or a Cutlass that time.

 

[CC268]

The last time I departed Big Bear, it was on a summer afternoon. The wind was favoring an eastbound takeoff, and I was planning to turn downwind and climb over the lake. However, once I got off the ground, since my climb rate was anemic, I decided that that much turning was not a good idea, so I made a slight left turn to climb over the meadow that was helpfully mentioned on a sign in the runup area. I don't remember whether I was in a Skyhawk or a Cutlass that time.

Yea I really want to fly to Tahoe or big bear sometime...it's just so beautiful!

My dad has already been to big bear and flagtaff both high DA places

 

[Clip4]

A lot of airports (KSEZ, KTVL, etc) recommend taking off one runway and landing on another due to various reasons (rising terrain, etc).

My guess is anything over a 5 knot tailwind and you would want to use the prevailing wind runway. What are your guys' recommendations on this?

Aircraft have performance data you might opt to evaluate rather than asking a blanket question.

 

[CC268]

Aircraft have performance data you might opt to evaluate rather than asking a blanket question.

You know I wasn't gonna say anything but I see you consistently post doosh answers on everyone's threads here on PoA. You obviously have nothing constructive to post on this site so why do you even bother? Your a dick. Move on.

 

[Clip4]

You know I wasn't gonna say anything but I see you consistently post doosh answers on everyone's threads here on PoA. You obviously have nothing constructive to post on this site so why do you even bother? Your a dick. Move on old man.

No, before one can answer that question, you have to know the specific aircraft performance data. Big difference in the effects of a 5 knot tail wind on a 100 HP plane and a 300 HP plane.

 

[CC268]

No, before one can answer that question, you have to know the specific aircraft performance data. Big difference in the effects of a 5 knot tail wind on a 100 HP plane and a 300 HP plane.

I get it but why so abrasive with everyone? There's plenty of posts above yours that are constructive and helpful.

As stated a few posts below I'm referring to a Cherokee 140

 

[Clip4]

Sorry if my comment seemed abrasive, but the climb in a 140 at gross is not very good, especially as DA increases, and I would not take off in any tail wind in that condition. If you solve for the performance using your aircrafts data, you might see why I say that. Do your own research and decide what you find to be the limiting factors for safe operation.

Today I started a flight review with a pilot in a make/model I was not familar with. The pilot and I are both big guys. It turned out the pilot/owner didn't know how to do a WB for his own plane and assured me we were ok. Actually our CG was several inches forward of the limits.

The manufacture's publish data for your use if you will use it.

 

[murphey]

You know I wasn't gonna say anything but I see you consistently post doosh answers on everyone's threads here on PoA. You obviously have nothing constructive to post on this site so why do you even bother? Your a dick. Move on.

Perhaps before you start critiquing valid suggestions, you might try understanding why the suggestion was made. As well as learning to spell and not make rude and ill-mannered charaterizations of others.

 

[CC268]

Perhaps before you start critiquing valid suggestions, you might try understanding why the suggestion was made. As well as learning to spell and not make rude and ill-mannered charaterizations of others.

Since you decided to go there.

First off, don't judge my character by my spelling. This is an online forum. You know nothing about me. Don't go there. Seriously.

Secondly, it doesn't take much to see a trend from certain members who post on this forum. There are several members on here who are pretty abrasive but offer useful advice. You deal with it and move on. There are others who seem to get on here to do nothing other than ruffle feathers.

Third, his suggestion was totally valid. I agree. Does that permit the rather rude response? Maybe to you it does. Maybe I "misread" the tone of it. I admit my response was harsh.

With all that being said, I am tired of seeing these "holier than thou" members who get so much pleasure out of shaming other members for asking questions. Quite frankly it should say something about a pilot who comes on here and consistently asks questions. A pilot who comes on here to try and learn from other experienced pilots. You realize most pilots don't do that right? Is that shameful to you?

So go ahead and say what you want. Realistically I could give two hoots what you think of me. But don't think I was so short sighted in all this.

 

[CC268]

Sorry if my comment seemed abrasive, but the climb in a 140 at gross is not very good, especially as DA increases, and I would not take off in any tail wind in that condition. If you solve for the performance using your aircrafts data, you might see why I say that. Do your own research and decide what you find to be the limiting factors for safe operation.

Today I started a flight review with a pilot in a make/model I was not familar with. The pilot and I are both big guys. It turned out the pilot/owner didn't know how to do a WB for his own plane and assured me we were ok. Actually our CG was several inches forward of the limits.

The manufacture's publish data for your use if you will use it.

I've been through all the performance charts for my plane. I know them well. And quite frankly the data is somewhat limited compared to some of the 172s I've flown (no data provided above 7000 feet, etc). I get what your saying and it's a valid point. My question wasn't meant to be some ****ing match. Some people seem to read way too deep into these questions while others provide great feedback, even if it is simple feedback that is fairly general and not specific to any single aircraft. I should have been more detailed and specific in my original post.

At the end of the day if you think the question is stupid, you don't agree, etc then don't waste your time responding, it's as simple as that.

 

[Clip4]

I've been through all the performance charts for my plane. I know them well. And quite frankly the data is somewhat limited compared to some of the 172s I've flown (no data provided above 7000 feet, etc). I get what your saying and it's a valid point. My question wasn't meant to be some ****ing match. Some people seem to read way too deep into these questions while others provide great feedback, even if it is simple feedback that is fairly general and not specific to any single aircraft. I should have been more detailed and specific in my original post.

At the end of the day if you think the question is stupid, you don't agree, etc then don't waste your time responding, it's as simple as that.

So what does your performance chart indicate for tail wind on take off? Most of the Piper charts give no reference for tail winds greater than 5 knots, so that is the limit they tested the aircraft to.

 

[exncsurfer]

Aircraft have performance data you might opt to evaluate rather than asking a blanket question.

I'm with CC on this, your answer was slightly better than 'google it'. His POH is not going to answer "at what point do you guys typically ignore the recommended runway, always?, tail wind of 1kt, 2, 5?" which is what I think he was looking for. vs. go read the manual


although i don't agree with the name calling got to give benefit of doubt, tone can be hard to read on a post, hope you guys like my spelling andpunctuation

 

[tspear]

Getting back to the OP. Ask why a specific runway is favored. Then you can make the eval. Fot Tahoe the climb gradient off 18 is too steep for OEI operations for moat multi aircraft further the box canon is too narrow to BBC perform a turn after takeoff and head north.
If you are in a single piston, you are slow enough and can turn tight enough it is not an issue.

Tim

Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk

 

[midlifeflyer]

A lot of airports (KSEZ, KTVL, etc) recommend taking off one runway and landing on another due to various reasons (rising terrain, etc).

My guess is anything over a 5 knot tailwind and you would want to use the prevailing wind runway. What are your guys' recommendations on this?

I fly a Cherokee 140

As some noted, it depends on the reason for the recommendation. Reasons can range from noise abatement to runway slope to less compatible terrain. At some point, you need to being out the books, check your needs, and apply additional adjustments. The POH/AFM generally has the adjustments for head/tailwind. If not, a very general ballpark rule of thumb is 20% increase in ground roll for each 10% increase in ground speed. A common rule of thumb for slope is a 10% increase/decrease in effective runway length for each percent of slope. (Like most rules of thumb, these are just a ballpark).

You can play with some numbers on the ground before you leave.

 

[tinerj]

Also, something similar: some airports have a calm air runway. But at KUUV, the calm air runway, 24, can have a brutal sun angle the hour before sunset during certain times of the year. Ignore it, but a plane landing on 6 would be difficult to detect by a pilot landing on 24.

 

[CC268]

So what does your performance chart indicate for tail wind on take off? Most of the Piper charts give no reference for tail winds greater than 5 knots, so that is the limit they tested the aircraft to.

Nothing. There is no mention of tailwinds anywhere in my POH.

 

[CC268]

As some noted, it depends on the reason for the recommendation. Reasons can range from noise abatement to runway slope to less compatible terrain. At some point, you need to being out the books, check your needs, and apply additional adjustments. The POH/AFM generally has the adjustments for head/tailwind. If not, a very general ballpark rule of thumb is 20% increase in ground roll for each 10% increase in ground speed. A common rule of thumb for slope is a 10% increase/decrease in effective runway length for each percent of slope. (Like most rules of thumb, these are just a ballpark).

You can play with some numbers on the ground before you leave.

Thanks for the helpful post. I appreciate it.

I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a "you must not know how to read your POH", but unfortunately the performance charts in my POH are pretty wimpy compared to the 172 I used to fly which had corrections for tailwinds, higher DAs, etc.

 

[CC268]

Getting back to the OP. Ask why a specific runway is favored. Then you can make the eval. Fot Tahoe the climb gradient off 18 is too steep for OEI operations for moat multi aircraft further the box canon is too narrow to BBC perform a turn after takeoff and head north.
If you are in a single piston, you are slow enough and can turn tight enough it is not an issue.

Tim

Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk

Great thanks a lot! Good to know that

 

[CC268]

I'm with CC on this, your answer was slightly better than 'google it'. His POH is not going to answer "at what point do you guys typically ignore the recommended runway, always?, tail wind of 1kt, 2, 5?" which is what I think he was looking for. vs. go read the manual


although i don't agree with the name calling got to give benefit of doubt, tone can be hard to read on a post, hope you guys like my spelling andpunctuation

Yes...this is exactly what I was looking for because nothing is said in my POH. It is something I can probably evaluate on my own fairly easy over time though. Probably what I will have to do.

 

[Palmpilot]

My guess is that the reason for the preferred runways at TVL is the high terrain south of the airport. In any case, safety should always take priority.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Do your own research...

The most overused phrase on the Internet.

 

[CC268]

My guess is that the reason for the preferred runways at TVL is the high terrain south of the airport. In any case, safety should always take priority.

Yea definitely...as one of the posters stated above it sounds like you could easily make a right downwind departure if needed (and the AFD mentions it too)

 

[CC268]

The most overused phrase on the Internet.

**sigh** it's frustrating because I research the heck out of just about everything. I've read the PHAK, AFH, Risk Management book, Instrument Flying Handbook, etc...I'm not some doofus pilot lol

Typically when I post something on here it's not out of pure laziness. I mean this is an online pilot forum and like I stated above it should say something about the fellows who come on this forum to ask questions. It doesn't make anybody a lesser pilot.

If you don't like what has been posted then you can ignore it, not respond to it, ignore the poster, etc. Very simple.

Note: this obviously wasn't directed to you Mr. Palm pilot or even Mr. Clip4, I just felt the need to say something. Sadly it won't change anything and the same people will continue to put fellow pilots down.

 

[mondtster]

With all that being said, I am tired of seeing these "holier than thou" members who get so much pleasure out of shaming other members for asking questions. Quite frankly it should say something about a pilot who comes on here and consistently asks questions. A pilot who comes on here to try and learn from other experienced pilots. You realize most pilots don't do that right? Is that shameful to you?

The holier than thou comments by some forum members does get old. I suspect that a number of posters here don't really practice what they preach. I've seen some of it in action...

But your inquiry could be taken in a few different ways. It can be looked at from the standpoint of "I'm too lazy to think through this myself." I don't think this is what you're doing or after, but it can appear that way. My guess is that you're looking for advice on techniques from more experienced pilots, the same way you might seek advice from a CFI.

So, back to the original question. A good understanding of why the recommendation for a certain procedure is required. I think you learned why the recommendation is there at TVL. In cases like that, looking at a topographical map or aerial photo will yield some clues. You might also gain some clues about noise abatement procedures if you look at an aerial photo, and see why they want you do something.

The notes that I don't particularly understand are the "calm wind runways" that seem arbitrary when looking at the terrain and development around the airport...

So what does your performance chart indicate for tail wind on take off? Most of the Piper charts give no reference for tail winds greater than 5 knots, so that is the limit they tested the aircraft to.

Got any proof that the testing stopped at 5 knots? That might just be what the company is comfortable with publishing data for.

 

[CC268]

The holier than thou comments by some forum members does get old. I suspect that a number of posters here don't really practice what they preach. I've seen some of it in action...

But your inquiry could be taken in a few different ways. It can be looked at from the standpoint of "I'm too lazy to think through this myself." I don't think this is what you're doing or after, but it can appear that way. My guess is that you're looking for advice on techniques from more experienced pilots, the same way you might seek advice from a CFI.

So, back to the original question. A good understanding of why the recommendation for a certain procedure is required. I think you learned why the recommendation is there at TVL. In cases like that, looking at a topographical map or aerial photo will yield some clues. You might also gain some clues about noise abatement procedures if you look at an aerial photo, and see why they want you do something.

The notes that I don't particularly understand are the "calm wind runways" that seem arbitrary when looking at the terrain and development around the airport...



Got any proof that the testing stopped at 5 knots? That might just be what the company is comfortable with publishing data for.

In retrospect I see that my question could be taken in many different directions. Unfortunately it isn't always easy to frame it perfectly and even then it seems different members approach it differently - which is fine. Next time I will try to provide some more background and details.

I've been around here long enough that I keep thinking members will recognize my screen name and see that I am not a lazy pilot. I've asked some good questions here and I've provided feedback on some of the things I have done myself that have made me a better pilot (aerobatic course, etc) in hopes that it may help other members as well. Maybe that is a silly assumption though.

A lot of times I will do just that and bring up google maps to look at the 3D view or a topography map. That is a great way to get a decent picture of the surrounding landscape!

Thanks for the help and the constructive post.

 

[DesertNomad]

Yea I really want to fly to Tahoe or big bear sometime...it's just so beautiful!

My dad has already been to big bear and flagtaff both high DA places

I grew up at Tahoe and learned to fly in Reno. Please get some mountain flying experience with a CFI. People kill themselves every year at KTVL and KTRK because of DA and terrain.

 

[CC268]

I grew up at Tahoe and learned to fly in Reno. Please get some mountain flying experience with a CFI. People kill themselves every year at KTVL and KTRK because of DA and terrain.

Yea there is a mountain flying course here in AZ that would be good I think. That said I didn't learn to fly in the flatlands either. I've been to Payson, Sedona, etc. My dad has been to Big Bear and Flagstaff which are even higher DA. I think with proper planning it could absolutely be done safely (not that I would do it in summer!)

In fact I may try to do the advanced bush flying and mountain course with Bush Air here in Arizona before I start my instrument.