A-10 a political bargaining chip again

Flying was good, and I still love it. However, there's way more fun and quality of life for me on the ground. I was a schoolhouse instructor when the 'F22 tax' cut flying drastically for everyone but the schoolhouses. Seeing my line buddies sit on the ground and beg to fly my lines was embarrassing. This was back in the 04 -07 timeframe.

I had the opportunity to go to the TACP world as an Air Liaison Officer then; lots of physical stuff, shooting, and still be able to employ ordnance up close and personally. In the end, I think this job suits my personality better.

When I retire, I'll probably pick up CFI/I'ing on the side as I love that aspect of flying. Eventually, I want to be able to turn that into all I do, independently though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Interesting, for most of 04-07 I flew my ass off at Mtn Home. I guess different places had different fallout. It helped that I was one of only 3 IPs in the wing at the time but it didn't seem as lean to me as what you're describing. The T-bolts were flying plenty then. You were an IP at Luke?
 
I was at TIK then, bastard child in ACC. We lost our TC-18s a year or two before so the cheaper option for our pilot proficiency sorties was gone. Initially the tax wasn't too bad, IP/SEFE, guys going into the AEF bucket were kept CMR with everyone else BMC. Later, entire squadrons were put into BMC after coming out of the bucket. The last straw for me was when our FTU manning was cut, syllabus sorties cut, and throughput increased.

I went to USAFE non flying instead of UAS, follow on to due to MEB for cancer to Ft Hood where I hit the magic 5 years out of the cockpit which left me dead to the jet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
EvilEagle said:
Interesting, for most of 04-07 I flew my ass off at Mtn Home. I guess different places had different fallout. It helped that I was one of only 3 IPs in the wing at the time but it didn't seem as lean to me as what you're describing. The T-bolts were flying plenty then. You were an IP at Luke?
Click to expand...


Did you know Herc Ernst? I think he was at MHAFB around that time frame. We were at Hood together.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
He was a viper guy up there, but ended non e-seat qualified then went to Gliders at USAFA before coming back to the ALO world.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I'll also thank you for your service, and remark at the hilarious number of acronyms you used below. Gotta' love the aviation/military language. :D

(Thanks as well to EvilEagle.)


TCABM said:
I was at TIK then, bastard child in ACC. We lost our TC-18s a year or two before so the cheaper option for our pilot proficiency sorties was gone. Initially the tax wasn't too bad, IP/SEFE, guys going into the AEF bucket were kept CMR with everyone else BMC. Later, entire squadrons were put into BMC after coming out of the bucket. The last straw for me was when our FTU manning was cut, syllabus sorties cut, and throughput increased.

I went to USAFE non flying instead of UAS, follow on to due to MEB for cancer to Ft Hood where I hit the magic 5 years out of the cockpit which left me dead to the jet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
In case of war I think the a-10 would be a decided asset. I can't imagine the bloated, over budget F 35 filling its role. It's grounded most of the time. Way way over budget! Years ago the " experts" decided no guns were needed on fighters, only air to air missals were necessary. They were totally wrong so they had to hang gun pods externally. Then there's the mighty Wurlitzer, the osprey which in combat , to the armed person on the ground , would be like going goose hunting. Easy meat. Big political- military mistakes.
 
TCABM said:
The Hawg is a fine plane, but it does not fulfill the CAS mission better than anything else.
Click to expand...

That doesn't square with my experience as an ALO. When you're on the ground not getting killed by your own Air Force is almost always priority one.

I know from personal experience that the A-10 is better at CAS than the F-16 (WAY better) or F-15E from the point of view of the guy on the ground.

What is this wonder plane that is going to provide CAS for the grunts? Not an F-22. Not an F-35, should there ever be a combat ready F-35.

Retiring the A-10s is extremely foolish and short sighted.
 
JimNtexas said:
That doesn't square with my experience as an ALO. When you're on the ground not getting killed by your own Air Force is almost always priority one.

I know from personal experience that the A-10 is better at CAS than the F-16 (WAY better) or F-15E from the point of view of the guy on the ground.

What is this wonder plane that is going to provide CAS for the grunts? Not an F-22. Not an F-35, should there ever be a combat ready F-35.

Retiring the A-10s is extremely foolish and short sighted.
Click to expand...

Did I hear the news reporter on TV correctly today ??

They said the F-35 was at 400 BILLION dollars already?:dunno: :eek:
 
asechrest said:
I'll also thank you for your service, and remark at the hilarious number of acronyms you used below. Gotta' love the aviation/military language. :D

(Thanks as well to EvilEagle.)
Click to expand...

Roger that. I think TCABM needs to be our AI (acronym interpreter) for the USAF, USA, USMC, and USN PDQ. UFB. TCABM is no REMF. :D
 
TCABM said:
He was a viper guy up there, but ended non e-seat qualified then went to Gliders at USAFA before coming back to the ALO world.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


He might've been gone before I got there. We had a good relationship with the T-bolts but I didn't know them all for the first year or so.
 
JimNtexas said:
That doesn't square with my experience as an ALO. When you're on the ground not getting killed by your own Air Force is almost always priority one.



I know from personal experience that the A-10 is better at CAS than the F-16 (WAY better) or F-15E from the point of view of the guy on the ground.



What is this wonder plane that is going to provide CAS for the grunts? Not an F-22. Not an F-35, should there ever be a combat ready F-35.



Retiring the A-10s is extremely foolish and short sighted.
Click to expand...


I respect your experience and yes, the ALOs biggest worry is still making sure Team Green doesn't get struck by Big Blue.

And yes, an A-10 pilot is more proficient doing CAS than a multi-role pilot is. Just as USMC Hornet pilots are more proficient at CAS in a multi-role platform than are USAF multi-role pilots in multi-role platforms are.

I don't think JSF is a direct Hawg replacement, but it's what we're being given. The Hawg retirement (not a fan, if it happens) is a budget issue that will leave a capability gap for sure. But that doesn't mean CAS won't get done.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
N801BH said:
Did I hear the news reporter on TV correctly today ??

They said the F-35 was at 400 BILLION dollars already?:dunno: :eek:
Click to expand...

That hurts, if correct. How many A-10s with the latest and greatest SAM defense and newest electronics package could we build with that money. :eek:
 
docmirror said:
That hurts, if correct. How many A-10s with the latest and greatest SAM defense and newest electronics package could we build with that money. :eek:
Click to expand...

The latest and greatest SAM defense is stealthiness, and no amount of money is going to make a Hawg stealthy.
 
Witmo said:
The latest and greatest SAM defense is stealthiness, and no amount of money is going to make a Hawg stealthy.
Click to expand...

Stealth is not a synonym for defense. It might be the best way, but it's not the only defense.
 
Witmo said:
The latest and greatest SAM defense is stealthiness, and no amount of money is going to make a Hawg stealthy.
Click to expand...

We are fighting people with towels wrapped around their heads that are shooting shoulder fired RPG's.. Geez....:mad2::mad2:
 
Don't get confused. This isn't a matter of kill the A-10 to replace it with the JSF. the costs between the two aren't even close. They are killing alot of stuff DoD wide to afford the F-35. The A-10 is just one program of many.

The DoD budget and JSF is kind of like a family living in a crack house that stops buying milk and eggs in favor of Wonder Bread and tap water so they can afford to make the minimum payment on the BMW in the driveway.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Don't get confused. This isn't a matter of kill the A-10 to replace it with the JSF. the costs between the two aren't even close. They are killing alot of stuff DoD wide to afford the F-35. The A-10 is just one program of many.

The DoD budget and JSF is kind of like a family living in a crack house that stops buying milk and eggs in favor of Wonder Bread and tap water so they can afford to make the minimum payment on the BMW in the driveway.
Click to expand...


That sir, is the quote of the century...:yes:

:cheers:
 
TCABM said:
ts in multi-role platforms are.

I don't think JSF is a direct Hawg replacement, but it's what we're being given. The Hawg retirement (not a fan, if it happens) is a budget issue that will leave a capability gap for sure. But that doesn't mean CAS won't get done.
Click to expand...

Please tell me the USAF isn't contemplating using a $100 million dollar semi-stealth airplane for CAS!

On second thought, don't tell me. :cryin:

Maybe they should get one of them there quad copters that Amazon is making to deliver hand grenades to the bad guys.
 
Witmo said:
The latest and greatest SAM defense is stealthiness, and no amount of money is going to make a Hawg stealthy.
Click to expand...

An A-10 in a fight with bad guys who have radars and SAMs doesn't need to be low observable. He come in a very low altitude from the friendly side and gets his 'stealth' that way.

Stealth is way overrated anyway.
 
N801BH said:
We are fighting people with towels wrapped around their heads that are shooting shoulder fired RPG's.. Geez....:mad2::mad2:
Click to expand...


That's a whole other problem. We've lost a bunch of multi-million dollar helicopters to a bazaar purchased $200 RPG's. Thank god they don't always detonate when they hit.


Sent from the barrel of an M-134 at 2800 ft/sec.
 
JimNtexas said:
An A-10 in a fight with bad guys who have radars and SAMs doesn't need to be low observable. He come in a very low altitude from the friendly side and gets his 'stealth' that way.

Stealth is way overrated anyway.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true F-111 pogue who didn't do CAS where you have to operate high enough to acquire targets visually. If you're high enough to see them, you're high enough for them to see you. If you're not fast or stealthy or both, you're dead if the bad guy has a weapon that can lock on and guide. Not all systems can be jammed so pods aren't the answer. We're not talking interdiction where it's one pass and haul ass against a set of coordinates. Stealth isn't a cloak of invisibility but having it is better than not.
 
Witmo said:
Spoken like a true F-111 pogue who didn't do CAS where you have to operate high enough to acquire targets visually. If you're high enough to see them, you're high enough for them to see you. If you're not fast or stealthy or both, you're dead if the bad guy has a weapon that can lock on and guide. Not all systems can be jammed so pods aren't the answer. We're not talking interdiction where it's one pass and haul ass against a set of coordinates. Stealth isn't a cloak of invisibility but having it is better than not.
Click to expand...

This war stuff is crazy.....

The whole idea is to kill them BEFORE they kill you...

It would be alot easier to just nuke all of them with a couple of bombs, turn the battlefield into a sheet of glass..... And go home...:idea:


Flame suit on....;)
 
Witmo said:
Spoken like a true F-111 pogue who didn't do CAS where you have to operate high enough to acquire targets visually. If you're high enough to see them, you're high enough for them to see you. If you're not fast or stealthy or both, you're dead if the bad guy has a weapon that can lock on and guide. Not all systems can be jammed so pods aren't the answer. We're not talking interdiction where it's one pass and haul ass against a set of coordinates. Stealth isn't a cloak of invisibility but having it is better than not.
Click to expand...

The A-10 is great for one mission today. CAS in a virtually undefended area. The F-35 can't touch the A-10 in that role.

However, if the opposition has anything more than optically guided AAA or out of date MANPADs, the A-10's are gonna take losses. Stealth, speed, sensors, and stand off weapons help, which is where the F-35 comes in.
 
Eh - maybe the A-10 is done. I recall a lecture from way back that said the US is always prepared to fight the 'last' war. Some truth to that. The A-10 was a great tool in the last war(s), but needs change, and time changes battlefields. maybe a drone with stand off capability will be fine for what ever is on the horizon.

Interesting to hear both sides anyway.
 
Witmo said:
Spoken like a true F-111 pogue who didn't do CAS where you have to operate high enough to acquire targets visually.
Click to expand...

You think I never did CAS in that thousand hours I spent in the F-4?

You think I didn't learn anything about CAS during the two years I spent as an ALO? Or the one year I spent running a live bombing range defended by seven radar simulators?

How many times have you operated a SAM or radar gun system against CAS aircraft?

You sound like the typical single seat nose gunner who doesn't know [censored] about the physics of radar.

Stealth isn't a cloak of invisibility but having it is better than not.
Click to expand...

Of course an F-35 would not be stealthy in on CAS mission in any case.

In the absence of a suitable CAS fighter probably the best option would be some standoff platform to toss out glide weapons of one kind or other that the guy on the ground could guide.

An F-16 is better than nothing for CAS, but it's certainly sub optimum for the task at best.

I don't know how many F-16s the Air Force is going to keep around, but I can't think there will be a lot of them after the huge downsizing that is about to happen, and the ones that survive are probably performing specialized missions other than CAS.

It would be significant malfeasance to risk an F-35 on CAS mission unless it was just dropping a standoff weapon. And if it's just a platform for dropping standoff weapons then why are we paying so much for it when we could use a Caravan instead?

The F-22 and F-35 need to take the war to the enemy, I they they will be an unbeatable interdiction force. That's what the USAF has always be best at.

But we ought to at least allow for the possibility that there may come a time when the enemy takes the war to us.
 
JimNtexas said:
You think I never did CAS in that thousand hours I spent in the F-4?

You think I didn't learn anything about CAS during the two years I spent as an ALO? Or the one year I spent running a live bombing range defended by seven radar simulators?

How many times have you operated a SAM or radar gun system against CAS aircraft?

You sound like the typical single seat nose gunner who doesn't know [censored] about the physics of radar.



Of course an F-35 would not be stealthy in on CAS mission in any case.

In the absence of a suitable CAS fighter probably the best option would be some standoff platform to toss out glide weapons of one kind or other that the guy on the ground could guide.

An F-16 is better than nothing for CAS, but it's certainly sub optimum for the task at best.

I don't know how many F-16s the Air Force is going to keep around, but I can't think there will be a lot of them after the huge downsizing that is about to happen, and the ones that survive are probably performing specialized missions other than CAS.

It would be significant malfeasance to risk an F-35 on CAS mission unless it was just dropping a standoff weapon. And if it's just a platform for dropping standoff weapons then why are we paying so much for it when we could use a Caravan instead?

The F-22 and F-35 need to take the war to the enemy, I they they will be an unbeatable interdiction force. That's what the USAF has always be best at.

But we ought to at least allow for the possibility that there may come a time when the enemy takes the war to us.
Click to expand...

Actually I was an F-111 WSO and EWO in -As, -Es, and -Fs, and ran a air-to-ground bombing range for a year where I got to see a lot of CAS practice. I think I know a little bit about radars. We even had threat radars at the range I worked. I was extremely impressed with the Hawg and its capability to put bombs and rounds on target. They're great if all they have to go against are AK-47s and RPGs. I wasn't all that impressed with -16s but they were better than nothing. The Marines in F/A-18s were as impressive as the Hawgs. Didn't see many -15Es so I don't have an opinion on how good they are at CAS. They seem to have done well in Afghanistan.
 
Witmo said:
Yes
95-96
Click to expand...

Wow! Then you do know what you are talking about!

I was ops officer there about '90 to '91!

Boy that was a fun assignment. An air show every day!! :)

145313540_61b51ecbc3_o.jpg
 
JimNtexas said:
Wow! Then you do know what you are talking about!

I was ops officer there about '90 to '91!

Boy that was a fun assignment. An air show every day!! :)

145313540_61b51ecbc3_o.jpg
Click to expand...

After I left they converted the Air Force contribution to civilian contractors. Several of my guys got out and stayed there working as civilian contractors and living in town. The ROKAF weren't too happy from what I heard, but I'm sure they came around when some of the equipment got upgraded to solid state instead of the antiquated tube technology from the fifties and sixties we were saddled with.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top