3rd class medical dui/felony

dryad001 said:
To give a history

1-15-96 Class I felony (driving without owners consent)
11-1998ish (1st DUI)
1-2004 (2nd DUI) This was the last ticket I have ever received.

These are the 3 things that have haunted me my adult life, I am now 37. I just left my well paying job to pursue a career in aviation as a A@P. To make myself more marketable (I will stay in the GA realm of thing and have no desire to move to the major carriers) I decided to take an intro flight and instantly fell in love with it. When I got a sample of the 3rd class medical and decided to do some digging of the Alcohol related and arrest offenses and none seems to be what Im looking for. So my questions are below

1. Am I better off as just an A@P with no hope of ever becoming a pilot?
2. Do I even try for a 3rd class medical with my prior history?

Thanks for any input
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Just a cautionary tale for you to keep you out of trouble:

I had a client that is similar to you. He had a couple DUIs when he was young and still in the marines. After he got out, he got his A&P and his inspector authorization. He had a good job working for a corporate aviation department as the director of maintenance. More than 10 years after his DUIs, he decided to get his pilots license as a "bucket list" item. He completed the medical, and failed to disclose his prior arrests on his medical certificate in response to the questions that begin "Have you ever in your life. . ." They later caught the omission when they were cross referencing against the state driver's histories. When they did, they sent him an emergency order of revocation for ALL of his certificates. Not just the medical and the private pilot certificate. They revoked his A&P and his inspector authorization.

:yikes::hairraise::eek::sad::mad2:

So, if you do decide to apply for a medical, don't do anything that can jeopardize your livelihood. It just isn't worth it. The DUIs shouldn't prevent you from getting the 3rd class medical at the end of the day if there is nothing else going on than what you have posted in this thread. (You may have some hoops to jump through.) But lying about will be a killer.
 
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evapilotaz said:
No one is going to give him the advise of he should have posted anonymous?

You guys don't know his true back ground and you have given him many labels.

Good luck OP
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You think someone with a felony criminal record plus two DUIs has a whole lot to worry about in case someone associates his posts on this board?
 
wsuffa said:
Keep in perspective that the FAA's role is be "answerable" to the Congress should something bad happen as a result of their grant of a license/medical.
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Howls of derisive laughter. The FAA roundly blows off the authority of congress.
The worst they have to do is endure a little grilling at some congressional committee. With the current do nothing congress, they'll just file a lawsuit against Obama instead.
 
flyingron said:
Howls of derisive laughter. The FAA roundly blows off the authority of congress.
The worst they have to do is endure a little grilling at some congressional committee. With the current do nothing congress, they'll just file a lawsuit against Obama instead.
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One reason that the FAA's rules on DUI/medical are so tough are the direct result of one Congresscritter's intervention.

While I don't disagree with the general sentiment concerning the current Congress, I might well be worried about a future one (assuming the Republic survives the current political situation).
 
I think with 2 DUIs and a felony of moral turpitude, you are going to have a very difficult time of it. Time is one thing in your favor, but it will likely cost you several thousand dollars in psychiatric testing to get cleared, and it may be issued with stipulations.
 
Mason said:
The advice is to NOT see just any old local AME. The wrong one can screw this up to a point it can't be fixed.
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Yeah. You really should consult with an AME ahead of time to see how to handle it. It will hopefully become obvious if the AME says, "You did what? There's no WAY you'll get through the system, not in a million years or a million dollars!", or he says, "That? Pffffft, that's nothing." You probably want something in between.

Once the AME starts the process, it has to go to a conclusion - either issue, defer to OKC for the final say, or denied. There isn't a way to say, "Well, lets just pretend this never happened." The only way you can do that is with an AME consult. And expect to be billed for his time. And that's why so many people are recommending Doc Bruce for that consult.
 
dryad001 said:
Not looking for an apology or sympathy. But it is kind of funny that my brother (ATP pilot) and I are the only ones to make it out of our "neighborhood upbringing". All the other people I grew up with are either in jail, prison, dead, or still stuck in the same place since they didnt have the drive to change. Sadly I was caught up in almost going down the same path but the best thing I ever did was remove myself from that environment and its been great ever since.

I have come a long way since those days, I own my own house, have a great wife, go on nice vacations, etc. So for all you nay-sayers out there. YES, people can change, not just myself but a lot of others as well. Ive voluteered a lot of time to shelters, working with inner city kids, food pantrys, etc. I encourage everyone to watch this video and read his book, its excellent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk56VxaeqEQ

Its funny if you think about it. For the crime I committed I have to live with it in the free world and make a go of it, while someone else who was charged with something more serious can sit in court and not say a thing get thrown in the slammer and get everything for free for the rest of their lives. So who really has it harder?


To get back on the subject. Ive spent most of last night writing down my plan to get this moving forward. I put a call into my former employer to write a letter of recommendation. I ahve all the phone numbers, email addys, local AMEs, everything off of the FAA.gov site pertaining to my "problem"

... time to head to school

Thanks again everyone
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Well done. I had my moments of indiscretion too. Sadly, in the days of computers nothing is ever 'over'. And the feds make a giant stink about stuff that happened 10-12 years ago as if it were yesterday. Might as well brand you with a giant "L" on the forehead and be done with it.

Anyway, back on point, while you're waiting for all the medical/legal machinations, you can still go fly an UltraLight solo with no medical at all. You can also fly a Light Sport plane and your hours will work toward your PPL should you decide to go that way later. As long as you have not been DENIED a medical, and you self-certify that you are well and able to fly, you are good to go.
 
If you've changed your ways you should be fine , with a small amount of paperwork you should emerge victorious. After all, daryl Issa , who is currently investigating almost everyone in washington , ( he's a congressman) has quite a police record including having stolen a couple of cars when young , loaded , unregistered gun in glove compartment, and was investigated later for possibly setting his company building on fire to collect insurance. ( his partner , now ex, claims this is true. He also claimed Issa threatened him with a pistol.) you should be fine, if not, write daryl for advice.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
If you've changed your ways you should be fine , with a small amount of paperwork you should emerge victorious. After all, daryl Issa , who is currently investigating almost everyone in washington , ( he's a congressman) has quite a police record including having stolen a couple of cars when young , loaded , unregistered gun in glove compartment, and was investigated later for possibly setting his company building on fire to collect insurance. ( his partner , now ex, claims this is true. He also claimed Issa threatened him with a pistol.) you should be fine, if not, write daryl for advice.
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Does the Congressman have an FAA medical? Or pilot certificate?
 
Mason said:
Does the Congressman have an FAA medical? Or pilot certificate?
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I have no idea if he does or doe not but if he wanted one I'll bet he could easily obtain one with his connections. In the case of the op I think he'll probably get one also if he presses on and stays clean. Amazing some of the pilots who have flown for say the CIA and their past records. barry seal would be an example.
 
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I'm not sure you'll ever make it to the airlines, but you have a chance to make a living as an A&P and fly privately.

That said, all if us have probably done things in our past that we are not proud of. Clean for 10 years... I wish you well.
 
Your chances of becoming the FAA Administrator now are practically non-existant.
 
Yup, wrong acronym Aviation (not Designated) Medical Examiner.

This may be thread jumping, but perhaps the OP should go LSA until the Third Class Medical goes the way of the Dodo.

How's that for optimism?
 
dryad001 said:
I have not. I want to study for my finals coming up next week, then i am off for 1.5 months.
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The time involved could end up being significant. I suggest calling him asap and consulting. Takes only 20 minutes. But that's just me...

Good luck sir!
 
EminiTrader said:
The time involved could end up being significant. I suggest calling him asap and consulting. Takes only 20 minutes. But that's just me...

Good luck sir!
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I have an alarm on my phone to give him a call on monday afternoon. I also want to get all the court papers and what not as well, might be nice to have copies if the need rises. The papers are going to take some time since ill have to deal with city hall folks.
 
FYI, from the FAA Aeromedical website.

A diagnosis or medical history of substance dependence is disqualifying unless there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. A history of substance abuse within the preceding 2 years is disqualifying. Substance includes alcohol and other drugs (i.e., PCP, sedatives and hynoptics, anxiolytics, marijuana, cocaine, opioids, amphetamines, hallucinogens, and other psychoactive drugs or chemicals).
Disqualifying Conditions Unless otherwise directed by the FAA, the Examiner must deny or defer if the applicant has a history of: (1) Diabetes mellitus requiring hypoglycemic medication; (2) Angina pectoris; (3) Coronary heart disease that has been treated or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant; (4) Myocardial infarction; (5) Cardiac valve replacement; (6) Permanent cardiac pacemaker; (7) Heart replacement; (8) Psychosis; (9) Bipolar disorder; (10) Personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts; (11) Substance dependence; (12) Substance abuse; (13) Epilepsy; (14) Disturbance of consciousness and without satisfactory explanation of cause, and (15) Transient loss of control of nervous system function(s) without satisfactory explanation of cause.n
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There's more amplifying text in the AME handbook as well, but still given the time and the fact that these were over ten years ago and there was no high BAC/refusal, then it's not a mandatory deferral. However, getting the ducks in a row: court documents, driving history to show no other arrests or convictions, etc.... is certainly worth the effort at this point because I guarantee either the AME or the FAA will want to see them.

The court records are often problematic because, there often isn't any court record to be had. You might have a docket record that says "he was found guilty and perhaps a sentence notation" but even a year after the fact there may not be anymore, let alone ten years.
 
dryad001 said:
To give a history

1-15-96 Class I felony (driving without owners consent)
11-1998ish (1st DUI)
1-2004 (2nd DUI) This was the last ticket I have ever received.
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The good news is that even if you can't qualify for a medical you're well-qualified for a career in politics.

Nauga,
who really does wish you luck
 
flyingron said:
There's more amplifying text in the AME handbook as well, but still given the time and the fact that these were over ten years ago and there was no high BAC/refusal, then it's not a mandatory deferral. However, getting the ducks in a row: court documents, driving history to show no other arrests or convictions, etc.... is certainly worth the effort at this point because I guarantee either the AME or the FAA will want to see them.

The court records are often problematic because, there often isn't any court record to be had. You might have a docket record that says "he was found guilty and perhaps a sentence notation" but even a year after the fact there may not be anymore, let alone ten years.
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For conversations sake lets just say that the court records are "minimal" at best with very little info involved. Should I still have these to take along with me? The driving record is no problem and is coming via snail mail and except for the 2 DUIs, its clean.
 
OK, I was just looking at my online "record" and the 1st DUI is not in there but the 2nd is? If memory serves on my driving record the court case docket number was not given. Is this still something I will be able to obtain since its still on my driving record?
 
dryad001 said:
For conversations sake lets just say that the court records are "minimal" at best with very little info involved. Should I still have these to take along with me? The driving record is no problem and is coming via snail mail and except for the 2 DUIs, its clean.
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Consult with the AME you intend to use to determine requirements. Do not go for the physical and then find out you need more paperwork. The AME has limited time to complete the application or defer it to OKC.
 
dryad001 said:
OK, I was just looking at my online "record" and the 1st DUI is not in there but the 2nd is? If memory serves on my driving record the court case docket number was not given. Is this still something I will be able to obtain since its still on my driving record?
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This is the kind of question you should be asking Doc Bruce or some other AME advocate who is going to go to bat for you.
 
dryad001 said:
For conversations sake lets just say that the court records are "minimal" at best with very little info involved. Should I still have these to take along with me? The driving record is no problem and is coming via snail mail and except for the 2 DUIs, its clean.
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I'd take all the documentation you have. If the documentation is missing or two minimal, I'd make a personal statement as to what exactly happened, something along the lines (Plead guilty, sentenced to 60 days probation, ...). Take all this with you to a good AME, let him decide what to submit. Keep the rest in case the FAA writes back with a request for additional info.
 
Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)
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https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/

Rule #1 in applying for a special issuance medical. DO NOT volunteer anything more than what you're required to provide.
 
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I never said volunteer them, I said HAVE THEM AVAILABLE. It will save time if they are subsequently requested.
 
I hope the OP reads the FAA page. My interpretation of that link is that since he has only two alcohol related arrests and the newest is in excess of 10 years ago the AME may issue him a medical. If the AME refuses I'd ask him to review the linked page and justify his position. Like I said on the Dr. Bruce thread, arm yourself with knowledge about the regulations. The one thing I'd still do in the OP's shoes would be to seek out an AME that was a pilot advocate and I'd ask for an consult appointment ahead of filling out the MedXpress 8500-8 and submitting to the subsequent airman's flight physical. In my hometown I could send him to an AME who'd very likely issue or a different one that would defer and work against the pilot. Not all AMEs are equal. Choose wisely.
 
Stewartb said:
I hope the OP reads the FAA page. My interpretation of that link is that since he has only two alcohol related arrests and the newest is in excess of 10 years ago the AME may issue him a medical. If the AME refuses I'd ask him to review the linked page and justify his position. Like I said on the Dr. Bruce thread, arm yourself with knowledge about the regulations. The one thing I'd still do in the OP's shoes would be to seek out an AME that was a pilot advocate and I'd ask for an consult appointment ahead of filling out the MedXpress 8500-8 and submitting to the subsequent airman's flight physical. In my hometown I could send him to an AME who'd very likely issue or a different one that would defer and work against the pilot. Not all AMEs are equal. Choose wisely.
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Oh, trust me Im not running into this guns blazing. Ive been on the phone most of the day talking with the arresting police and looking for general knowledge. So far I think Im going to go above and beyond of what any AME asks. I have filed for my open records for everything.

I have already read the regs below quite a few times:

Deferral Criteria:
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
  • Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
  • For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
    • Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
    • Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years
And the first bullet point is what sticks in my head...and I will have that in my possession before I talk with anyone. CYA is my motto. Although I would still like to get Dr. Bruce's opinion first.
 
dryad001 said:
Oh, trust me Im not running into this guns blazing. Ive been on the phone most of the day talking with the arresting police and looking for general knowledge. So far I think Im going to go above and beyond of what any AME asks. I have filed for my open records for everything.

I have already read the regs below quite a few times:

Deferral Criteria:
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
  • Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
  • For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
    • Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
    • Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years
And the first bullet point is what sticks in my head...and I will have that in my possession before I talk with anyone. CYA is my motto. Although I would still like to get Dr. Bruce's opinion first.
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Yep, you're on the cusp, the AME you choose can make all the difference in getting certified or denied.
 
dryad001 said:
Oh, trust me Im not running into this guns blazing. Ive been on the phone most of the day talking with the arresting police and looking for general knowledge. So far I think Im going to go above and beyond of what any AME asks. I have filed for my open records for everything.

I have already read the regs below quite a few times:

Deferral Criteria:
The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
  • Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
  • For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
    • Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
    • Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years
And the first bullet point is what sticks in my head...and I will have that in my possession before I talk with anyone. CYA is my motto. Although I would still like to get Dr. Bruce's opinion first.
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Henning said:
Yep, you're on the cusp, the AME you choose can make all the difference in getting certified or denied.
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It appears, Dryad, you're on a good course. And a good AME like Doc Bruce will help. Especially with the challenge of an old arrest/court record not being available. IIRC, there may be some additional "non-court" and "non-LEO" documentation to obtain, and Bruce will supply the list. This is to show to the FAA that you're not a frequent/repeat offender and nor have the behaviors associated with such.

Flying Ron and others have it right to not send or submit anything until asked for. But having it all there and well organized can really help. When working with Dr. Bruce in a consultative role, he can review all that you have gathered and help organize the submission so that it meets the standard and the lower level reviewers can approve.

The latter you want since it means a faster return of approval. Poorly organized or more difficult cases must go up the food chain, and there is a significant wait (3-6 weeks) until the packet reaches the top of the pile at the next person. Dr. Bruce's more than reasonable fee is well worth the expense to 1) not need to get passed up the chain, 2) get a speedy response, and 3) know with confidence that if he says you'll be issued, the chance of you not is very, very small.
 
After driving all over the place yesterday afternoon i should have everything in about a week.
 
dryad001 said:
After driving all over the place yesterday afternoon i should have everything in about a week.
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What major city do you reside in or next too? If you said earlier, I missed that.
 
This Dr. chein is a little hard to get ahold of. Ive been trying for the last week. Phone calls in, emails sent and no word yet.
 
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