3 Alcohol Events - 2 as a Minor - 3rd Class Medical Deferment

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pit2atx

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So I was given a deferment for my third class medical and wondering how long this process will take to either deny me or go through the steps to receive my medical. This was due to having 3 alcohol events on my record. Let me explain..

All in Pennsylvania
2003 - Possession of Alcohol (Minor) - Record expunged but listed in NDR - No court records can be found
2004 - Possession of Alcohol (Minor) - Record expunged but listed in NDR - No court records can be found
2009 - DUI - Record expunged but listed in NDR - No court records can be found and can't find actual BAC. Driving record shows BAC tier between .1 and .159

The first two occurred as a minor and no records exist as mentioned but listed an alcohol related event on NDR.

Has anyone had a similar situation or know someone in a similar situation? What was the end result? Any insight into timeframe for final result?
 
You can expect to hear nothing for about 12 weeks. Chances are you will get an outright denial, if not you'll be referred for a HIMS evaluation. With that history, the FAA has little reason other than to agree that you have an ongoing alcohol substance abuse problem indicated by alcohol tolerance. Any sane psych evaluation would result in the same thing.

You can spend a lot of money getting furhter evals if they even allow you the chance. Issuance will be conditional on your complete ABSTINANCE from alcohol verified by regular and random checks.

I hope you weren't anticipating a career in aviation.
 
For the love of Icarus.... can someone develop a summary about these alcohol situations and get Jason to make it a permanent sticky?
 
flyingron said:
You can expect to hear nothing for about 12 weeks. Chances are you will get an outright denial, if not you'll be referred for a HIMS evaluation. With that history, the FAA has little reason other than to agree that you have an ongoing alcohol substance abuse problem indicated by alcohol tolerance. Any sane psych evaluation would result in the same thing.

You can spend a lot of money getting furhter evals if they even allow you the chance. Issuance will be conditional on your complete ABSTINANCE from alcohol verified by regular and random checks.

I hope you weren't anticipating a career in aviation.
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How does nothing for the past eight years qualify as an "ongoing" substance abuse problem? :confused2:
 
What’s “NDR”?

How did they even find out about the ones as a minor?
 
dans2992 said:
What’s “NDR”?

How did they even find out about the ones as a minor?
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National Driver Register. It's a database of issued licenses and those prohibited from obtaining licenses. You specifically authorize the FAA to check this when you sign the medical application.
There's no restriction on either the medical application or the registry for the age of the offender.

Besides, he didn't quite say it but "minor" in this case (alcohol) may mean under 21 not just under 18. Either way, as long as the last DUI was over 18, the rest is just supporting evidence.
He has as far as the FAA is concerned a recurring alcohol problem. Frankly, by DSM standards, he does as well, too.

The issue is showing he has recovered from this and that he has a good prognosis for staying on the wagon. As stated, the FAA, if they are even going to consider this want to see demonstrated abstinence (not just below .08 sobriety).

He'll have to see what the FAA kicks back on his application. I suspect however, he's headed for HIMS land if not denied outright.
 
When I say minor, I mean under the age of 18. The way they would know about these offenses, even though they are not on my record anywhere, is they are found on my driving record because they suspended my license. This can be found on my NDR - National Driving Record

The minor offenses were being caught drinking at high school parties where alcohol was involved. EVERYONE was given a citation. The DUI situation was during college. These were the days of growing up and going to college in small towns! I've moved past those days, developed a very successful career and barely drink at all. I certainly don't have an "ongoing" alcohol problem. I was young and made mistakes.

For the record, I want to fly for recreation only..
 
John221us said:
He hasn’t been caught in eight years and he can’t show he was below .15 on any of them.
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By that logic how many of us just haven’t been caught in 30, 40, 50, or 60 years? I know it is how the FAA operates. I suspect in time that tune will change.
 
John221us said:
He hasn’t been caught in eight years and he can’t show he was below .15 on any of them.
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That's certainly possible, but how do you get from "possible" to "that's what happened"?
 
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flyingron said:
"He has as far as the FAA is concerned a recurring alcohol problem."
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Does the FAA ever recognize that he "had" a problem instead of "has" a problem? For example, if his last alcohol-related arrest had been forty years ago, would they still insist in an HIMS evaluation?
 
pit2atx said:
The minor offenses were being caught drinking at high school parties where alcohol was involved. EVERYONE was given a citation. The DUI situation was during college. These were the days of growing up and going to college in small towns! I've moved past those days, developed a very successful career and barely drink at all. I certainly don't have an "ongoing" alcohol problem. I was young and made mistakes..
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I thought what tripped the medical were automotive citations. If you just got caught drinking at a party, how does that factor in? By that standard we're all addicts and none of us should be flying.
 
I don't think they charge you with DUI for drinking at a party.
 
It doesn’t matter what anyone tells you except Dr Bruce and the FAA, so if you’re just going to ***** and moan and act defiant then stop wasting everyone’s time and go deal with your self-made problems like an adult.
 
Palmpilot said:
Does the FAA ever recognize that he "had" a problem instead of "has" a problem? For example, if his last alcohol-related arrest had been forty years ago, would they still insist in an HIMS evaluation?
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It's not forty years ago. It's not even ten years ago. Yes, if he had one event more than ten years ago and can demonstrate no other hits on his record since, they MAY even with the two minor-in-consumption raps, pass him. However, this isn't the case. He's got a fresh DUI with no BAC to refute the tolerance assumption and history of unlawful consumption before that.

Frankly, he not only meets the FAA criteria, but also the DSM bullet points for substance abuse.
 
Maybe I'm alone, but when I read this guy's history, I think, "Now here's a guy I don't want getting a pilot's license..." Yes, I see that his last "bust" was 8 years ago, but I'm thinking several things: he didn't learn after the first two arrests, he may have just gotten better at not getting caught, and he admits he still drinks. Yeah, if it was up to me, it would be like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi, "no pilot's license for you".
 
Palmpilot said:
Does the FAA ever recognize that he "had" a problem instead of "has" a problem? For example, if his last alcohol-related arrest had been forty years ago, would they still insist in an HIMS evaluation?
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Yes, that he had a problem that began at a young age and continued into his adulthood. The FAA makes the rules, and they can make their rules very difficult to live with for those who have violated them. Whether you, or anyone, thinks they’re not fair or that they are stupid has no bearing on the outcome.
 
unknown ... before issuance they will want some or all of the following: records ... aviation shrink or alchol psyc opinion ... a personal statement concerning past and present use of alcohol ... full hims. I start with the facts and guide the airman as the FAA responds.
 
The answer is that they don't KNOW he has a problem. But the evidence is that he might, and might implies doubt. We have trained our government workers not to guess, but to know for certain. Therefore they will not risk the false negative and will treat any suspicion as deniable. No government worker is going to stick their neck out an inch to risk anything for something they care nothing about.

My prediction is denial + HIMS eval. Please come back and follow up to tell us what happens.
 
flyingron said:
It's not forty years ago. It's not even ten years ago. Yes, if he had one event more than ten years ago and can demonstrate no other hits on his record since, they MAY even with the two minor-in-consumption raps, pass him. However, this isn't the case. He's got a fresh DUI with no BAC to refute the tolerance assumption and history of unlawful consumption before that.

Frankly, he not only meets the FAA criteria, but also the DSM bullet points for substance abuse.
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The forty years was hypothetical. You seem to be saying that the FAA considers an eight year old DUI "fresh." Is that true? I'm just wondering where they draw the line.
 
tawood said:
Maybe I'm alone, but when I read this guy's history, I think, "Now here's a guy I don't want getting a pilot's license..." Yes, I see that his last "bust" was 8 years ago, but I'm thinking several things: he didn't learn after the first two arrests, he may have just gotten better at not getting caught, and he admits he still drinks. Yeah, if it was up to me, it would be like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi, "no pilot's license for you".
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Fortunately, you're not running the FAA. You seem to be assuming that no one can ever stop abusing alcohol.
 
Lachlan said:
Yes, that he had a problem that began at a young age and continued into his adulthood. The FAA makes the rules, and they can make their rules very difficult to live with for those who have violated them. Whether you, or anyone, thinks they’re not fair or that they are stupid has no bearing on the outcome.
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I consider it our civic responsibility to monitor whether our employees in government are behaving in a just and appropriate manner. The difficulty in controlling the government's behavior does not relieve us of that responsibility.
 
Palmpilot said:
The forty years was hypothetical. You seem to be saying that the FAA considers an eight year old DUI "fresh." Is that true? I'm just wondering where they draw the line.
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One line is drawn at ten years.
 
AggieMike88 said:
For the love of Icarus.... can someone develop a summary about these alcohol situations and get Jason to make it a permanent sticky?
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If someone (I'm thinking Bruce) wanted to make a thread of that sort then I would support making it a sticky.
 
pit2atx said:
The minor offenses were being caught drinking at high school parties where alcohol was involved. EVERYONE was given a citation. The DUI situation was during college. These were the days of growing up and going to college in small towns! I've moved past those days, developed a very successful career and barely drink at all. I certainly don't have an "ongoing" alcohol problem. I was young and made mistakes.
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I'm convinced. I mean if you were lying then Santa would not bring you any presents this Christmas. :lol:

But I am not the one that needs convincing. The FAA will not buy the "I was young and made mistakes" line.

Good luck to you, we're all counting on you.

Start here: http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/startpagina.html

Or here: lbfjrmd
 
I drank once or twice before the legal age, and in college there was at least one time I was behind the wheel probably over the limit.

I don't drink anymore for the most part. I probably have less than six drinks a year, and it's been decades since I've had more than one drink in a day. My favorite is absolut, and I still have some left from the bottle I packed and moved when I bought the new house almost two years ago. I was never really fond of booze, but it was the thing to do at the time.

Even so, I could easily have his record, with worse luck, and you probably could to if you were honest with yourself, so ya, it's possible to have his record and not have an alcohol problem.

That said, hes probably screwed.
 
Palmpilot said:
I consider it our civic responsibility to monitor whether our employees in government are behaving in a just and appropriate manner. The difficulty in controlling the government's behavior does not relieve us of that responsibility.
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Citizens (media) monitoring how government employees behave is how we got here.

Employees of the government are terrified of the very bureaucracy they work in. They refuse to be the one under the bare light bulb answering the question "He crashed and killed someone when he was flying drunk. Why did you approve him when there was evidence the guy had a drinking problem?" Bye, bye pension and bye, bye cushy government job because they behaved wrong, made a mistake and someone caught them at it. Nope, they're going to prevent the false negative. Better to maybe prevent a good thing from happening than to enable the bad thing.
 
Salty said:
I drank once or twice before the legal age, and in college there was at least one time I was behind the wheel probably over the limit.

I don't drink anymore for the most part. I probably have less than six drinks a year, and it's been decades since I've had more than one drink in a day. My favorite is absolut, and I still have some left from the bottle I packed and moved when I bought the new house almost two years ago. I was never really fond of booze, but it was the thing to do at the time.

Even so, I could easily have his record, with worse luck, and you probably could to if you were honest with yourself, so ya, it's possible to have his record and not have an alcohol problem.

That said, hes probably screwed.
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I don't drink, period...so no, I can't have his record. Plus, even though I've made some really stupid mistakes in my life, I can at least say I didn't make the same ones over and over...
I can understand youthful mistakes, etc, but are you saying IF you had been busted drinking before the legal age, you would have done it again? Then later drove drunk to boot???
 
The OP did the right thing in being up front and not trying to cover up any misdoings of his past. He will have to go through a process to ensure he's safe in the cockpit and I believe it will be sorted and he'll be flying free and clear. The FAA is responsibile to the public to make sure no one is operating an aircraft with a drug/alcohol abuse problem and it's a good thing, too. They just can't take the OP's word that he's clean but has to treat him like he's still an abuser until proven otherwise. Nothing personal, it's just the way things are.

Just a word of caution: A acquaintance of mine with PP, COM, IFR, MEL, CFII and A&P had ALL his certificates revoked when it was discovered that he failed to report a drug related bust (marijuana, no driving involved) on his medical form. After a lONG wait he had to retest for each certificate (written, oral & practical). Never try to cover up anything on a medical as it's easier to deal with it by admitting up front than letting the issue be discovered By the Feds.
 
OP, if you are serious you probably should have already contacted one of the Senior AMEs on this board before applying. However, since you already opened the can o worms, now you will just have to wait. Like others have suggested, likely you will be denied. If so likely you will have to go through the very expensive HIMS Psych eval, and probably since your DWI was less than 10 years back, go through the HIMS protocol and prove zero alcohol use through random monitoring.I do highly suggest that you contact one of the AMEs on here if you decide to continue.

As some one here have pointed out - what your history shows could be indicative of a few things, both ends of the spectrum or someplace in between. I'm not going to judge - youthful indiscretion is part of my history too. However the FAA - they will judge. And they do not go easy on this stuff.

If you had asked before applying, I'd have suggested you go sport pilot, or be prepared to bend over... But that ship has sailed now since you applied. I wish you good luck, and hope that for your own safety/sake that you really are done messing with alcohol. At all, like completely. If so you will get a chance (possibly) to prove that to the FAA.
 
tawood said:
I don't drink, period...so no, I can't have his record. Plus, even though I've made some really stupid mistakes in my life, I can at least say I didn't make the same ones over and over...
I can understand youthful mistakes, etc, but are you saying IF you had been busted drinking before the legal age, you would have done it again? Then later drove drunk to boot???
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I don’t need know. But I got a speeding ticket and broke the speed limit again, so it’s entirely possible.

It’s not as though I even knew back then that it mattered to be able to fly 40 years later.

It’s easy to say I wouldnt do it now that I know better.
 
Would it be worth submitting a letter of recommendation with my personal statement from my CFI who already started to train me? My CFI offered to write one for me as I came prepared day one for training having already completed my written test with a 93% and well read in aviation. He asked if I was in the military due to my demeanor and readiness.

Not trying to boost myself here, I'm just wondering if that is even a thing to do since he offered having already worked with me a bit and knowing my character ..

I could ask my employer as well if it helps at all. Just trying to build my case here to give me a shot
 
pit2atx said:
Would it be worth submitting a letter of recommendation with my personal statement from my CFI who already started to train me? My CFI offered to write one for me as I came prepared day one for training having already completed my written test with a 93% and well read in aviation. He asked if I was in the military due to my demeanor and readiness.

Not trying to boost myself here, I'm just wondering if that is even a thing to do since he offered having already worked with me a bit and knowing my character ..

I could ask my employer as well if it helps at all. Just trying to build my case here to give me a shot
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Letters of recommendation might help, but not at this point. As @jbrinker posted above, the can of worms has been opened, and now it's best to wait until the FAA sends you their response letter.

In that response letter may be instructions that tell you what can be done to proceed.


You should also be ready to engage the services of a Senior AME that (better, a Senior HIMS AME) has a track record of success with cases such as yours. You need to have a very experienced advocate to manage your case. Not every AME is acquainted or equipped to do this. But the ones I refer to are.

There are specific steps to be done and specific reports to be generated. This will be paid for out of your pocket. If not done correctly, then you will be sent back to do it again (and pay for it again). The right Senior AME or HIMS AME will make sure things are done like the FAA wants them done.
 
Palmpilot said:
I consider it our civic responsibility to monitor whether our employees in government are behaving in a just and appropriate manner. The difficulty in controlling the government's behavior does not relieve us of that responsibility.
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You’re a much more hard core patriot than anyone, ever. Rock on. Question authority. Don’t trust anyone over 30. Fight for your rights, and so forth. ;)
 
freenrgy2 said:
Man, this is one tough forum
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We get more than our share of folks who won't take responsibility and just want to whine and moan that it's not their fault and that the system is unfair.

Even when the proper advice is offered to them multiple times.

So, yeah, we can be tough critics on cases such as the OP's. But once we know they are willing to hitch up their big pilot pants and make the change, we do a decent job showing encouragement.

But for the ones that continue to gritch and moan and want to just sit in their warm diaper complaining, those pants better be flame proof.
 
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