204 knots

[Jay Honeck]

So, okay, I was in a slight descent, with a bit of a tailwind, but 185 knots indicated airspeed is still pretty healthy for a 180 HP homebuilt, IMHO.

This was our first flight in Amelia after installing the new upper main gear fairings, pictured below. For whatever reason, the original builder never got around to installing them, and the guy that we bought her from (who owned her for 7 years) never did, either.

As my first airframe mod, I think they cleaned up her looks quite nicely. I purchased the fairings pre-made, trimmed them to fit, painted them with rattle cans of primer/finish coat/clear coat, and stuck 'em on with RTV.

Yep, RTV. I didn't want to drill rivnuts for screws, cuz the wing spar is right around where I would want to drill. Since these fairings don't come off for the annual inspection, I opted to install them with RTV, which makes them more or less permanent. Naturally, I was very happy to see them still attached after hitting 235 mph.

Did the aerodynamic advantage of the fairings allow us to fly faster? Dunno, but they did clean up a pretty ugly area, aerodynamically. In the end, though, I just think they look nicer.

 

[moonshine]

Good. Now get a manly heated Pitot tube, it will up your Vne 8 knots 1


1 Disclaimer - it won't. But the stock Van's p.t. looks.. unfitting.

 

[Henning]

Speaking of Vne, what is Vne of that airframe?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Good. Now get a manly heated Pitot tube, it will up your Vne 8 knots

Well, and if you're a true purist, you'll comment disparagingly on those non-standard, non-flush rivets in Amelia's bottom. Those are costing me some serious speed!

(FYI: Those are holding on some very Cherokee-like reinforcements, installed by the previous owner's A&P, when they found cracks in the floor. These cracks are not uncommon in the -8A, because the more level floor of the trike allows a pilot to plop his full weight on that section of floor as he slides into the cockpit.

Those cracks are NOT normally seen in -8s, because the slope of the floor -- it's a tail-dragger -- doesn't allow the pilot to put his full weight on that section of floor.)

Bottom line: The reinforcements work, and I don't think anyone is going to be laying on their backs looking under there too soon.

 

[Jay Honeck]

BTW: This is what it looked like WITHOUT the upper main gear fairing. (With a wheel pant on, of course!) FUGLY!

 

[moonshine]

Well, and if you're a true purist...

I'm not, but who cares about the rivets when the joint on the lower wheel pant to strut fairings stick out like that - that's 1/4 knot each!

I'm just messing with ya.. I built three sets of fairings just like those (only better ) - no mas, ever again. Each set of the damn things took away a week of my life . On the bright side, the second set went to an insurance rebuild and the owner was very worried that he won't be able to perform as good at the annual race held at the homecoming (he won the previous one) - he won again and the plane clocked in 2.5kts more speed than the prior year [/braggin] though the other boys tried to disqualify him on the basis that the wheel fairings weren't painted yet

PS No fairing over the drain valve?!

 

[RotorAndWing]

That's about .31 Mach, maybe it's time to install a mach meter.......

 

[Jay Honeck]

Speaking of Vne, what is Vne of that airframe?

Vne is an interesting topic with homebuilts. On my plane, the redline Vne speed is shown as 203 KIAS. However, I've seen Vne as high as 220 KIAS on other -8s airspeed indicators.

Why the difference? I have no idea. (And, no, it wasn't mph!)

I've also read that Van pushed the -8 WAY beyond 230 KIAS in flight testing. Shoot, there is an O-540 powered -8 that raced at Reno faster than that a year or two ago.

So, 185 KIAS in smooth air was sweet. One of the beauties of living on the coast, is that our thick, linear air blowing off the ocean is about as smooth as a baby's bottom. There's absolutely nothing to break it up for a thousand miles.

 

[Jay Honeck]

]PS No fairing over the drain valve?!

Damn -- do they make them?

 

[Jay Honeck]

That's about .31 Mach, maybe it's time to install a mach meter.......

I'll never threaten Mach 1, but I sure do like burning just 9.something gallons per hour nowadays.

 

[moonshine]

Damn -- do they make them?

anal retentive types do

 

[JOhnH]

Speaking of Vne, what is Vne of that airframe?

That was my firs thought. Do experimentals even HAVE Vne? or is that what the experiment is? To see when the wings fall off?

 

[Todd Copeland]

Very cool for sure. But I have to say, my Glasair III will cruise at 230knots straight and level!

 

[flyingron]

That was my firs thought. Do experimentals even HAVE Vne? or is that what the experiment is? To see when the wings fall off?

Just because the FAA doesn't require an experimental to certify to the design parameters doesn't mean you get exemption from specifying them. Same thing for gross weight.

 

[Ted]

That was my firs thought. Do experimentals even HAVE Vne? or is that what the experiment is? To see when the wings fall off?

They do, and one of my RV-building friends sent me an article from Vans urging people not to exceed it. This includes TAS. So if it's 200 kt Vne, don't exceed 200 KTAS. Flutter is TAS dependent.

 

[Bill]

So, okay, I was in a slight descent, with a bit of a tailwind, but 185 knots indicated airspeed is still pretty healthy for a 180 HP homebuilt, IMHO.

Damn, now we're doing zoom descents too?

J/K

When descending from cruise, I normally leave cruise power set and come down hill at 180-185kts. Helps make up for time lost on the climb.

 

[Geico266]

That was my firs thought. Do experimentals even HAVE Vne? or is that what the experiment is? To see when the wings fall off?

Yes, Ron & Ted have it right. Vans' is always mph though. I'm pretty sure it is 230 mph, but I'm sure Jay knows.

Van himself has written a couple of scathing articles about exceeding the engineered limits on speed and HP, but it is still up to the owner and builders to do want they want. Most don't exceed the limits.

 

[Ted]

Damn, now we're doing zoom descents too?

J/K

When descending from cruise, I normally leave cruise power set and come down hill at 180-185kts. Helps make up for time lost on the climb.

That's what I've always done as well. In the 310 it normally takes me to the top of the green, sometimes into the yellow depending on how fast I want to descend. Slippery thing the 310, much like a Mooney. Would benefit from speed brakes in some cases.

 

[Bill]

That's what I've always done as well. In the 310 it normally takes me to the top of the green, sometimes into the yellow depending on how fast I want to descend. Slippery thing the 310, much like a Mooney. Would benefit from speed brakes in some cases.

185 is in the yellow, which is fine for light turb on the descent, redline is 198. I'll never get that fast unless I combine high power and > 500fpm descent.

 

[Ted]

185 is in the yellow, which is fine for light turb on the descent, redline is 198. I'll never get that fast unless I combine high power and > 500fpm descent.

Yeah, my redline is something like 250 MPH. I'll never be that fast, including TAS without a significant pushover. I'm normally about 215 MPH in cruise, but can do 225.

 

[dell30rb]

Ted, I think I read the same article, but I got something a little different out of it. Vans recommends no Turbo or Turbo-Normalized motors be installed. The reason is flutter concern. Vne is given in IAS and with any of the recommended normally aspirated powerplants, using 200IAS is fine, there is plenty of buffer between 200 IAS and whatever the TAS limit is (they didn't give one) at any normally aspirated altitudes.

Now if you took oxygen and spent a ridiculous amount of time climbing your NA plane to 20,000 feet, then nose dived the thing, you might get in trouble.

 

[Velocity173]

That was my firs thought. Do experimentals even HAVE Vne? or is that what the experiment is? To see when the wings fall off?

Yep. 225 KIAS for a Glasair I.

 

[Geico266]

Ted, I think I read the same article, but I got something a little different out of it. Vans recommends no Turbo or Turbo-Normalized motors be installed. The reason is flutter concern. Vne is given in IAS and with any of the recommended normally aspirated powerplants, using 200IAS is fine, there is plenty of buffer between 200 IAS and whatever the TAS limit is (they didn't give one) at any normally aspirated altitudes.

Now if you took oxygen and spent a ridiculous amount of time climbing your NA plane to 20,000 feet, then nose dived the thing, you might get in trouble.

Agreed, on long trips I use O2 up to 18k. I just don't see the need for a turbo, it would be nice, but the cost and maintenance is a turn off to me. VNE is 230 in the -10 so a turbo would plush you past that.

 

[Ted]

Ted, I think I read the same article, but I got something a little different out of it. Vans recommends no Turbo or Turbo-Normalized motors be installed. The reason is flutter concern. Vne is given in IAS and with any of the recommended normally aspirated powerplants, using 200IAS is fine, there is plenty of buffer between 200 IAS and whatever the TAS limit is (they didn't give one) at any normally aspirated altitudes.

Now if you took oxygen and spent a ridiculous amount of time climbing your NA plane to 20,000 feet, then nose dived the thing, you might get in trouble.

There's different ways to get around it, but it amounts to the same thing. Naturally aspirated engines will keep you slow enough it's no problem. Turbo engines require more care since nobody installs a barber pole. For example the Commander had like 240 KTS Vne, but the barber pole came down to around 200ish, maybe even 180 at altitude.

Vne is given in IAS, correct. But if you also limit yourself to that same speed in TAS, you stay out of flutter concern.

 

[Skylane81E]

How about a retractable step?

 

[dell30rb]

Agreed, on long trips I use O2 up to 18k. I just don't see the need for a turbo, it would be nice, but the cost and maintenance is a turn off to me. VNE is 230 in the -10 so a turbo would plush you past that.

The problem with a Vne IAS of 230 is that at 18000 feet if you are indicating 230, your true airspeed is going to be way higher (flutter is caused by too high true airspeed, indicated does not matter).

Try to stay a good bit below 230 indicated in your descents at 18k, as this is a bit higher than what I would call normally aspirated cruising altitudes. Once you get down below the oxygen altitudes, you can go faster.

 

[Ted]

How about a retractable step?

I've found on the 310 it makes about 0 impact in speed. 4130 streamline tubing.

The problem with a Vne IAS of 230 is that at 18000 feet if you are indicating 230, your true airspeed is going to be way higher (flutter is caused by too high true airspeed, indicated does not matter).

Try to stay a good bit below 230 indicated in your descents at 18k, as this is a bit higher than what I would call normally aspirated cruising altitudes. Once you get down below the oxygen altitudes, you can go faster.

Or better yet, keep an eye on your TAS on your fancy digital Dynon or whatever, and just keep that below 230.

 

[wabower]

Turbos are great if you can fly all your trips down-wind. If not, maybe more pencil-work is required.

Agreed, on long trips I use O2 up to 18k. I just don't see the need for a turbo, it would be nice, but the cost and maintenance is a turn off to me. VNE is 230 in the -10 so a turbo would plush you past that.

 

[airguy]

Now if you took oxygen and spent a ridiculous amount of time climbing your NA plane to 20,000 feet, then nose dived the thing, you might get in trouble.

That's not as hard as you might think - the RV9A with the "Vans-approved" max engine of 160hp has a "Vans-published" ceiling of FL245, and many builders (myself included) have opted to put 180hp in them. The additional power does require the pilot to keep an eye on Vne for sure on descent. It's not an engineering limitation per se (power control, not flutter) - it's a pilot control limitation. The throttle is ONE of several controls in the airplane, all of which must be manipulated as needed to keep the airplane within its flight envelope. You can exceed the flight envelope with just about any of them if you have your head up and locked. Don't be that guy.

The additional horsepower is VERY nice for rapid climbs at high DA fields and crossing the Rockies or topping above minor weather. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it all - but when you need it, it's nice to have it.

 

[JHW]

I've found on the 310 it makes about 0 impact in speed. 4130 streamline tubing.

on mine the step is worth 4mph. the tubing is "streamlined" but it is turned 90 deg to the wind. Wasn't a problem when it left the factory and the step was retractable. I have the retraction disabled so if I go on a long trip without the kids, I take the step off. There is a psychological boost to seeing TAS >165kts and I can't do that with the step extended.

 

[Ted]

on mine the step is worth 4mph. the tubing is "streamlined" but it is turned 90 deg to the wind. Wasn't a problem when it left the factory and the step was retractable. I have the retraction disabled so if I go on a long trip without the kids, I take the step off. There is a psychological boost to seeing TAS >165kts and I can't do that with the step extended.

On the 310 the step has retracted part way, leaving what I thought would be a significant drag. When I pushed it up the whole way, I noticed a 0 MPH difference. But I'm glad it's worth something in the Travel Air. I wish the 310 didn't have the step setup it does.

Or we could get a 340. That doesn't have a step.

 

[JHW]

Or we could get a 340. That doesn't have a step.

That is the obvious solution.

I suggested something similar to my wife when whe was looking at me sideways as I was putting the step back on. I told her I could get a streamlined step that was riveted on and is non-retractable, and causes very little drag. She said that sounds like a good idea. Then I told her that the new step might come with a D55 baron attached to it. Then she suggested I get a spring pin instead of a bolt so that removing the existing step would be quicker.

 

[Ted]

That is the obvious solution.

I suggested something similar to my wife when whe was looking at me sideways as I was putting the step back on. I told her I could get a streamlined step that was riveted on and is non-retractable, and causes very little drag. She said that sounds like a good idea. Then I told her that the new step might come with a D55 baron attached to it. Then she suggested I get a spring pin instead of a bolt so that removing the existing step would be quicker.

Next time suggest a Duke.

My wife suggested the 340, I countered with 421, and we ended up back on 310.

 

[JHW]

Next time suggest a Duke.

My wife suggested the 340, I countered with 421, and we ended up back on 310.

we fortunately have a friend with a 414 who lets us use it whenever we want. However, this month the inconsiderate jerk decided to take his own airplane to alaska leaving us with our non-air conditioned travel air. I'm happy to fly our plane since I buy the gas either way, but the girls seem to think the 414 is as small as planes should get.

 

[wabower]

During the two-weeks that the boss was flying in another plane, the Missus was the only pax in the G-V as we flew around Europe. She later said she thought it was "about right" for GA travel.

we fortunately have a friend with a 414 who lets us use it whenever we want. However, this month the inconsiderate jerk decided to take his own airplane to alaska leaving us with our non-air conditioned travel air. I'm happy to fly our plane since I buy the gas either way, but the girls seem to think the 414 is as small as planes should get.

 

[wabower]

The amount of fancy footwork required to own and operate a 340 precludes the need for other devices. Just sign here, press hard; third copy's yours.

On the 310 the step has retracted part way, leaving what I thought would be a significant drag. When I pushed it up the whole way, I noticed a 0 MPH difference. But I'm glad it's worth something in the Travel Air. I wish the 310 didn't have the step setup it does.

Or we could get a 340. That doesn't have a step.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Very cool for sure. But I have to say, my Glasair III will cruise at 230knots straight and level!

Wow! What engine/fuel burn?

 

[Ted]

The amount of fancy footwork required to own and operate a 340 precludes the need for other devices. Just sign here, press hard; third copy's yours.

You forgot "Bend over, you may feel some slight discomfort."

 

[Jay Honeck]

Yes, Ron & Ted have it right. Vans' is always mph though. I'm pretty sure it is 230 mph, but I'm sure Jay knows.

Van himself has written a couple of scathing articles about exceeding the engineered limits on speed and HP, but it is still up to the owner and builders to do want they want. Most don't exceed the limits.

The feeling I've gotten from fellow -8 owners is that the airframe is capable of speeds well in excess of Van's very conservative 203 knot Vne.

One guy mentioned, over beers, that he hit 240 knots accidentally, while "dog fighting" someone. He about crapped himself when he saw it, and happily reports no ill effects.

And, of course, there are the guys bolting O-540s on, calling them "Super-8s", and flying them near and over Van's Vne all day long.

Not being former military, I'm not planning to dogfight people, but it DOES inspire confidence knowing that the airframe can take it.

 

[dell30rb]

The feeling I've gotten from fellow -8 owners is that the airframe is capable of speeds well in excess of Van's very conservative 203 knot Vne.

One guy mentioned, over beers, that he hit 240 knots accidentally, while "dog fighting" someone. He about crapped himself when he saw it, and happily reports no ill effects.

And, of course, there are the guys bolting O-540s on, calling them "Super-8s", and flying them near and over Van's Vne all day long.

Not being former military, I'm not planning to dogfight people, but it DOES inspire confidence knowing that the airframe can take it.

I wouldn't be so confident. Just sayin. Flutter (like sasquatch) is something you don't want to be messin with.

Those guys flying over Vans Vne all day long are asking for it IMO. If you want to fly that fast, buy or build something designed for it. Alternately if you are going to do serious modifications like that, the only proper way to do it is to have it evaluated by an engineer and put through a flight test program by a professional.

Whether or not an airplane will develop flutter is based on a ton of variables and this includes the rigging of the plane, environment, stresses (turbulence or G loading). Its basically a phenomenon (in that it can be difficult to predict) and should be respected.