2 door low wings (yep another what plane for me thread)

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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I have my own mission in mind and a plan that is in motion, etc.

My dad is not the special snowflake that I am. Meaning he would never create a crazy outgoing persona on a forum to mask his real life introvertedness and anxieties (I need therapy)

After a couple years back in the saddle with our (his) starter plane, he wants essentially his last plane.

Preference:
He really wants a cirrus so mom can pull the chute when he passes out.
I swear he passes out every time we fly. :)

Also he likes nice things and he sees that as a nice thing.

His requirements:

  • Budget 140k or less
  • Low Wing
  • Pilot side door
  • Newer = better (I can't see him flying anything older than late 70s)
  • ~140kts or faster
  • No clubs or partners, etc. he wants it outright
  • Able to carry 4 adults (even if it means leaving some fuel)
  • He can fly for about 2.5 hours before he requires stops
  • He is big on comfort and not bumping shoulders with right seat
  • Twins: Don't know a lot about them and that VME roll seems frightening

The TB20 has been high on his list but parts and people that know how to deal with its little nuances are a hassle.

The Commanders (114) look like they fit the bill. I am getting him a ride in one next week hopefully.

Cirrus... on his budget... There are a few but the associated costs are going (I think) to irritate him.

I have seen some Beech's that are 2 door (I forget what models)

What other low wing planes have a pilot side door or even the 6 seaters that have additional escape routes...

Dad is an amazing stick and rudder pilot but some of the things he requires are his own quirks that make him more comfortable in a plane and whether they are rational or not, I don't care. I want to help gather information for him.

He is ready to pull the trigger on something but he is getting overwhelmed with information that is mostly coming from ads. I am far more likely to see a guy in a cool plane and say "Take me for a spin in your and I will take you up in mine" so I can get a feel for what is like to be up in it. He won't do that so I am scouting for him.

Thanks in advance.
 
Although I loathe them personally as not a pilot's plane, if he can swing an older SR20 that would probably be a good fit for his mission.

The Commander series is supposed to be a very roomy, comfortable and fun to fly plane, but much like the Socatas the 114 gets that roomy by trading plan area (speed) for comfort- don't believe the figures from marketing. Also, the 114 is an orphan.
 
warthog1984 said:
Although I loathe them personally as not a pilot's plane, if he can swing an older SR20 that would probably be a good fit for his mission.

The Commander series is supposed to be a very roomy, comfortable and fun to fly plane, but much like the Socatas the 114 gets that roomy by trading plan area (speed) for comfort- don't believe the figures from marketing. Also, the 114 is an orphan.
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That's good information. One of the "rumors" I heard was parts are hard to come by.

They are so good looking though.

Any more details on the "orphan" issue?
 
The production rights and tooling have been bought and sold several times over the years. No stable company to provide parts, advice, or institutional knowledge.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
The production rights and tooling have been bought and sold several times over the years. No stable company to provide parts, advice, or institutional knowledge.
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You are in a similar boat if I recall.
What are you thinking about upgrading to?
 
Right now I'm just holding steady. Less than a year at a new job, living in a new part of the country, renting in the new location while rebuilding a house that was gutted by fire at the old. I have enough on my plate right now.

Lower budget speed? Piper Comanche
Comfort & two doors? Socata TB-20/21
Mid range minivan? Cherokee 6 or Cessna 182.
 
How about a canopy rather than two doors? Grumman Tigers and Navions would fit much of the bill otherwise. You're not rubbing shoulders in the Navion unless you guys are real fatties. The Rangemasters have a pilot side door (but of course lack a passenger side door).
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
The Commanders (114) look like they fit the bill. I am getting him a ride in one next week hopefully.
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I had a 112, basically the same plane but 200-hp IO-360 engine. Very comfortable and great visibility out the windows.

Go directly to www.commander.org and sign up for the forums there. Full membership is $75/yr I believe, but you can get free access to some "intro" message areas to introduce yourself. It's an active, dedicated group.
 
This thread should be called "How can I convince my dad to buy a Commander. Because I really want a Commander".

Not that I blame you, that commander is freakin cool and I want one too.
 
flyingron said:
How about a canopy rather than two doors? Grumman Tigers and Navions would fit much of the bill otherwise. You're not rubbing shoulders in the Navion unless you guys are real fatties. The Rangemasters have a pilot side door (but of course lack a passenger side door).
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Tiger is my target plane. 22 months and 18 days to go. :D
 
eman1200 said:
This thread should be called "How can I convince my dad to buy a Commander. Because I really want a Commander".

Not that I blame you, that commander is freakin cool and I want one too.
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Oh that wasn't my intent. that is just where I am at in my research.
We are meeting a guy to look at his SR22 this weekend hopefully as well.
We have already flown the Trinidad and that is one we know a lot about. Same airframe as ours.

The main question is what else is out there?

If I could get him past the 1 door thing, there are a few Beech A36 out there that are within reach. Club seating is awesome.
 
schmookeeg said:
While I love the little 2-door-having Beech Sundowner, it does not scratch many of your itches. :D
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So it's the sundowner. I know nothing about beeches.
I know there is a Grumman site that shows a chart of all the singles side by sigle giving specs. Is there something like that for the Beech?

Doesn't the Sierra have 2 doors?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So it's the sundowner. I know nothing about beeches.
I know there is a Grumman site that shows a chart of all the singles side by sigle giving specs. Is there something like that for the Beech?

Doesn't the Sierra have 2 doors?
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Yes, but you often have to clean bugs off the trailing edges of the wings.

Sierra: All the maintenance of a retract, at the speed of a fixed gear. My Cherokee was faster than the one I trained in, no joke.
 
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If EAB is an option for you, look at the RV-10. Two gull-wing doors. Fit 4 people COMFORTABLY - I'm 6'7" tall and I can sit in the back seat without having my knees up around my chin - my dad is 6'5" and we are both broad in the shoulders and we can sit side by side in the front without rubbing shoulders. Cruise at ~165kts on ~14GPH. Maintenance costs can be lower.

As with any plane, a thorough pre-buy inspection is the key.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
That's good information. One of the "rumors" I heard was parts are hard to come by.

They are so good looking though.

Any more details on the "orphan" issue?
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Not really anymore, there is a pretty good group behind them now. There is also an STC I heard about to reduce the angle of incidence on the horizontal stab that picks up from 5-10 knots depending on who is telling.

The 114/115 (even the 112TC is good for me) Commander series is one of my favorites, I would not hesitate buying one. When I worked on them I was always impressed by how stout and well engineered everything was.
 
CJones said:
If EAB is an option for you, look at the RV-10. Two gull-wing doors. Fit 4 people COMFORTABLY - I'm 6'7" tall and I can sit in the back seat without having my knees up around my chin - my dad is 6'5" and we are both broad in the shoulders and we can sit side by side in the front without rubbing shoulders. Cruise at ~165kts on ~14GPH. Maintenance costs can be lower.

As with any plane, a thorough pre-buy inspection is the key.
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:yes::yes:
 
CJones said:
If EAB is an option for you, look at the RV-10. Two gull-wing doors. Fit 4 people COMFORTABLY - I'm 6'7" tall and I can sit in the back seat without having my knees up around my chin - my dad is 6'5" and we are both broad in the shoulders and we can sit side by side in the front without rubbing shoulders. Cruise at ~165kts on ~14GPH. Maintenance costs can be lower.

As with any plane, a thorough pre-buy inspection is the key.
Click to expand...

He likes the RV10 (not crazy about the stick) but aren't those like 200k?
 
 
Diamond DA40? Do those real world cruise in the 140's?
 
If you're going to have an RV-10, why not go ahead and get a Navion and do it right? For a $150k you can have a Lindy winning Navion.
 
I found a great RV for sale

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Regarding Commander - the company assets were purchased and the new owners are gearing up to resume production in Norman, OK. Meanwhile, there is no issue with parts and where to find anything on the part is available from the information on the Owner's site.

If you decide to pursue a Commander - I would strongly recommend calling Judi Anderson at <http://www.suncoastaviation.com/> as she has files on nearly all the Commanders in the US and is a great resource.

As to the speed issue - comfort with pretty good speed is the motto for the 114. I plan for 150 kts and can pull back to 140 kts at 13 gph. 1100# useable wjth 680# with full fuel and 812# at the tabs.

FWIW - YMMV,

Jim
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My dad is not the special snowflake that I am. Meaning he would never create a crazy outgoing persona on a forum to mask his real life introvertedness and anxieties (I need therapy)
Click to expand...

How has this gone unmentioned...lol. This is quite possibly one of the best statements made on the forum today haha.
 
Got insurance quote back on all 3 planes (cirrus, Trinidad, Commander) and the price is the same:

5000 per year until both pilots have 500 hours
3200 once we hit 500 hours.

My insurance on the TB9 is only 400/ year.

The good news is Dad and I are going to start safety piloting for each other to get our hours up and do our IR together.

He really wants the Cirrus. He is calling his A&P to get average costs for maintenance and such.
 
Originally Posted by SixPapaCharlie
My dad is not the special snowflake that I am. Meaning he would never create a crazy outgoing persona on a forum to mask his real life introvertedness and anxieties (I need therapy)


twiggles said:
How has this gone unmentioned...lol. This is quite possibly one of the best statements made on the forum today haha.
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you_re_not_a_special_snowflake_by_tiisiphone-d688tzs.jpg
 
Sorry, but your Dad's mission screams Commander 114TC. The TC stands for Tufted Couch. Standard equipment includes a foot massager and Martini holders. Other planes inspire pilots to wear flight suits and jackets with patches on, but the proper attire for a Commander pilot is the Hefner robe. The plane carries one captain and three bunnies.

You don't taxi a Commander, you arrive in a Commander. Line boys come running from all corners of the airport. Other planes cower down in respect. No really! All other planes really are lower! It's not a plane, it's a lifestyle.

All kidding aside, the Commander sounds perfect for your Dad. The turbo actually allows you to get up and travel with the plane. They really are cool. Too bad they aren't in business anymore, but if you buy a nice example and be involved with the owner's group, I'm sure ongoing maintenance won't really be an issue. One thing to really check though is the ADs on the plane. I remember there were some serious ones involving cracked metal for the earlier planes, but I imagine the 114TC would be late model enough to have most of those worked out?
 
Like Dave said, check the AD's. I glanced at them for a little while. I thought I remember seeing something about the wings. Maybe it's the cracking that Dave mentioned, but I also thought some had specified lifetimes.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Got insurance quote back on all 3 planes (cirrus, Trinidad, Commander) and the price is the same:

5000 per year until both pilots have 500 hours
3200 once we hit 500 hours.

My insurance on the TB9 is only 400/ year.

The good news is Dad and I are going to start safety piloting for each other to get our hours up and do our IR together.

He really wants the Cirrus. He is calling his A&P to get average costs for maintenance and such.
Click to expand...

So that's what getting anally violated with a cactus feels like.
 
This fixation on pilot door is something I've never understood. It's a preference without much logic behind it as the extra door adds weight and reduces hull stiffness. Understand that the limitation takes out prolly the best candidates for all those other requirements. But - whatev.

Some few Navion Rangemasters were built with pilot side door. They are big, comfy, modesty fast/slow, and have incredible range, so he could ferry fuel, or just make stops on a whim. will haul lots of adults with half fuel, and some were built after 1970. It's a very low production aircraft, and finding the right one might take forever, but it almost fits all the criteria mentioned.
 
To tell the truth, I think a Cirrus rings the bell pretty well. A Diamond DA40 would be a sound consideration, too.

I'd get some other insurance quotes; from whom did you get those - Avemco? Call Alejandro Galioto at True Course 805-727-4222
 
Our ins. is through Hardy.
I will call Avemco.
 
Henning said:
Not really anymore, there is a pretty good group behind them now. There is also an STC I heard about to reduce the angle of incidence on the horizontal stab that picks up from 5-10 knots depending on who is telling.
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The STC would be from Jim Richards of Aerodyme, the fellow who bolted the IO-580 onto Commanders to make them Super Commanders. He was also involved in helping solve the cracking elevator spar issue, which was the most recent AD on them (in 2011 I think).


Dav8or said:
Sorry, but your Dad's mission screams Commander 114TC. The TC stands for Tufted Couch. Standard equipment includes a foot massager and Martini holders. Other planes inspire pilots to wear flight suits and jackets with patches on, but the proper attire for a Commander pilot is the Hefner robe. The plane carries one captain and three bunnies.
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As Bill Jennings said at one of the RDU BBQ flyins when he sat in my Commander, "This is like sitting in a Buick!!!"

Dav8or said:
One thing to really check though is the ADs on the plane. I remember there were some serious ones involving cracked metal for the earlier planes, but I imagine the 114TC would be late model enough to have most of those worked out?
Click to expand...

rbridges said:
Like Dave said, check the AD's. I glanced at them for a little while. I thought I remember seeing something about the wings. Maybe it's the cracking that Dave mentioned, but I also thought some had specified lifetimes.
Click to expand...

The major wing AD's are so old, any airworthy Commander should have those addressed. Going from memory, the 114TC's came after those, but may have had one AD regarding exhaust or turbo mount cracking. The most recent AD in 2011 pertains to cracks in an elevator spar near a hinge attach point.
 
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