2 door low wings (yep another what plane for me thread)

Are you absolutely sure we can't get him to come visit Hangers 7 & 9 across the taxiway from where your TB9 is stored?

He needs to go take a ride with Tyler and see what we have available for him.

(right now, 55WB has it's engine dismounted and that's been sent to Tulsa, but 149G is usually available to be shown).
 
Anyhow... before he gets too too wrapped around the prop hub, have him call me or Tyler.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have my own mission in mind and a plan that is in motion, etc.

My dad is not the special snowflake that I am. Meaning he would never create a crazy outgoing persona on a forum to mask his real life introvertedness and anxieties (I need therapy)

After a couple years back in the saddle with our (his) starter plane, he wants essentially his last plane.

Preference:
He really wants a cirrus so mom can pull the chute when he passes out.
I swear he passes out every time we fly. :)

Also he likes nice things and he sees that as a nice thing.

His requirements:

  • Budget 140k or less
  • Low Wing
  • Pilot side door
  • Newer = better (I can't see him flying anything older than late 70s)
  • ~140kts or faster
  • No clubs or partners, etc. he wants it outright
  • Able to carry 4 adults (even if it means leaving some fuel)
  • He can fly for about 2.5 hours before he requires stops
  • He is big on comfort and not bumping shoulders with right seat
  • Twins: Don't know a lot about them and that VME roll seems frightening

The TB20 has been high on his list but parts and people that know how to deal with its little nuances are a hassle.

The Commanders (114) look like they fit the bill. I am getting him a ride in one next week hopefully.

Cirrus... on his budget... There are a few but the associated costs are going (I think) to irritate him.

I have seen some Beech's that are 2 door (I forget what models)

What other low wing planes have a pilot side door or even the 6 seaters that have additional escape routes...

Dad is an amazing stick and rudder pilot but some of the things he requires are his own quirks that make him more comfortable in a plane and whether they are rational or not, I don't care. I want to help gather information for him.

He is ready to pull the trigger on something but he is getting overwhelmed with information that is mostly coming from ads. I am far more likely to see a guy in a cool plane and say "Take me for a spin in your and I will take you up in mine" so I can get a feel for what is like to be up in it. He won't do that so I am scouting for him.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

A solid, Comanche sounds about right.
 
docmirror said:
No pilot door. Same as Bo. Lots of good planes off the list due to that.
Click to expand...

The age is another issue.

The door thing is purely mental. He did some training last summer in a warrior and he said he just got to feeling claustrophobic without that door there.

Same with high wing. I got him in a Cessna and he was just irritated that he couldn't see as well.

I can't explain peoples' quirks but everyone has them.
He can afford to work around his quirks. I still adjust my quirks to my budget :)
 
warthog1984 said:
Although I loathe them personally as not a pilot's plane, if he can swing an older SR20 that would probably be a good fit for his mission.
Click to expand...
Except for that four adults part, I would agree. I think you'd have to leave a lot of fuel behind to carry 750 lb or so in the cabin of an SR20. Same for the DA40 or anything else with less than about 230 HP. I just don't see 140 KTAS and four adults possible without retractable gear or a 250-300HP engine. The Commander 114 seems a really good possibility, with useful loads in the 1100 lb range and 68 gal max fuel pulled by a 260HP engine and advertised speeds in the desired range, and prices are well within in the desired range. That pilot-side door pretty much eliminates every other low wing single I know which meets the other specs.

I suppose the TB20 Trinidad would do, as well, but I have issues with the French.
 
I have an agent, Sutton/James, that gave me a great price for insurance on an '84 Warrior through USAIG. And if I recall, I had less than 100 PIC since the checkride.
At least I am now past the 500 hour mark if that is some sort of guideline being used now for insurance. Closing in on 700.
 
rbridges said:
Like Dave said, check the AD's. I glanced at them for a little while. I thought I remember seeing something about the wings. Maybe it's the cracking that Dave mentioned, but I also thought some had specified lifetimes.
Click to expand...

I believe they did have a lifetime limitation on the wings at one point, but it was something like 10,000 hours. I have yet to see on any 112-115 Commander advertised online, lol. If you see one with over 4K hours, it seems to be a high-time bird in the Commander world. The Commander 112-115's are just about the best looking 4-place bird on the ramp. Sure, they don't run Bo/Mooney speeds due to the wide profile, but they sure do have a good reputation for build quality and comfort.
 
silver-eagle said:
I have an agent, Sutton/James, that gave me a great price for insurance on an '84 Warrior through USAIG. And if I recall, I had less than 100 PIC since the checkride.
At least I am now past the 500 hour mark if that is some sort of guideline being used now for insurance. Closing in on 700.
Click to expand...


Hardy said 500 was the price line with regard to HP aircraft.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I believe they did have a lifetime limitation on the wings at one point, but it was something like 10,000 hours. I have yet to see on any 112-115 Commander advertised online, lol. If you see one with over 4K hours, it seems to be a high-time bird in the Commander world. The Commander 112-115's are just about the best looking 4-place bird on the ramp. Sure, they don't run Bo/Mooney speeds due to the wide profile, but they sure do have a good reputation for build quality and comfort.
Click to expand...

I have heard tell that the 114/115 will get Bonanza speeds with the tail mod, I'd love to get a ride in one with the mod to see how it is for myself. I used to fly a buddy's 112TC and really enjoyed it.
 
docmirror said:
No pilot door. Same as Bo. Lots of good planes off the list due to that.
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean but just sit in the other seat and problem solved. My friend does that for the same reason as stated above.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Hardy said 500 was the price line with regard to HP aircraft.
Click to expand...

When I was checking rates four years ago it was:
$500 for a Tampico with $39,000 in hull
$1,200 for a Comanche 250 with $50-60,000 in hull

At the time I was a 300 hour commercial pilot with my instrument.

Maybe the commercial & instrument made the difference. Maybe the $140,000 hull is what is killing you.

Jim
 
Henning said:
I have heard tell that the 114/115 will get Bonanza speeds with the tail mod, I'd love to get a ride in one with the mod to see how it is for myself. I used to fly a buddy's 112TC and really enjoyed it.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on which Bo we're speaking of. I believe the 114/115 with the mod will run 170kts or so. It would compare with with the 225HP/260HP Bo's, but the 300HP Bo's would have a pretty big advantage. The 115 Super Commander will hit 200kts though from what I understand, since it has 300HP hanging off of the front end.
 
Florida Cracker said:
I understand what you mean but just sit in the other seat and problem solved. My friend does that for the same reason as stated above.
Click to expand...
Simple solution, but be sure the check that the POH doesn't have a PIC prohibition against this. There are some airplanes that do.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I suppose it depends on which Bo we're speaking of. I believe the 114/115 with the mod will run 170kts or so. It would compare with with the 225HP/260HP Bo's, but the 300HP Bo's would have a pretty big advantage. The 115 Super Commander will hit 200kts though from what I understand, since it has 300HP hanging off of the front end.
Click to expand...

The 260 is my comparative reference since that is what the 114 has, Add the 580 to the Commander and it will likely then keep up with the 300 HP Bonanza as well then. Has anybody done a 390 conversion into,a 112TC? Is the tail mod equally effective to the 112 series?
 
Last edited:
SoonerAviator said:
I suppose it depends on which Bo we're speaking of. I believe the 114/115 with the mod will run 170kts or so. It would compare with with the 225HP/260HP Bo's, but the 300HP Bo's would have a pretty big advantage. The 115 Super Commander will hit 200kts though from what I understand, since it has 300HP hanging off of the front end.
Click to expand...

It's been a while since I've been in touch with the Commander crew, but those numbers may be a tad optimistic. The website says up to 8 kt increase for the Super Stream tail mod. And for the Super Commander, it's a 320 hp, at 175 ktas cruise.

Henning said:
The 260 is my comparative reference since that is what the 114 has, Add the 580 to the Commander and it will likely then keep up with the 300 HP Bonanza as well then. Has anybody done a 390 conversion into,a 112TC? Is the tail mod equally effective to the 112 series?
Click to expand...
Yes, Jim's done that too (website). I talked with Jim about 4 years ago, as his IO-390 conversion design and approval for the 112's were nearing completion. The engineering talk was fantastic. I'm glad I was sitting down when price was discussed. :eek:
 
rpadula said:
It's been a while since I've been in touch with the Commander crew, but those numbers may be a tad optimistic. The website says up to 8 kt increase for the Super Stream tail mod. And for the Super Commander, it's a 320 hp, at 175 ktas cruise.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the 175kts sounds right, just got my UoM mixed. 200mph, not 200kts. I was under the impression that the 114's would top out at 160kts, add 7-8kts to get you mid/upper-160's. Of course that's running 75%+ cruise, most would be dialing it back a good bit. The extra 60HP of the -580 gets you 10kts I guess, but while drinking a good bit more go-juice. I don't belong to any of the Commander groups, so the 160 number I've seen for the 114 may be IAS not TAS.
 
Last edited:
Jaybird180 said:
Simple solution, but be sure the check that the POH doesn't have a PIC prohibition against this. There are some airplanes that do.
Click to expand...

I know you're right, because some simple solutions just can't be that easy, right?

My buddy flies that way all the time, and he flies his all the freaking time.

Whenever he used my bird, he insisted on sitting in the right seat. It made me think about some CFI's that become more comfortable flying right seat, because they spend so much time there.
 
rpadula said:
It's been a while since I've been in touch with the Commander crew, but those numbers may be a tad optimistic. The website says up to 8 kt increase for the Super Stream tail mod. And for the Super Commander, it's a 320 hp, at 175 ktas cruise.


Yes, Jim's done that too (website). I talked with Jim about 4 years ago, as his IO-390 conversion design and approval for the 112's were nearing completion. The engineering talk was fantastic. I'm glad I was sitting down when price was discussed. :eek:
Click to expand...

I saw all the 112s listed but the TC on the 390 conversion.
 
Bryan, refresh my memory...

What is your dad desiring? Speed? Endurance? Economy? Interior space? Long Distance Traveler? IFR capable?
 
Henning said:
I saw all the 112s listed but the TC on the 390 conversion.
Click to expand...

Ah, yeah. I misread your original question. I was thinking along the lines of putting the IO-390 (210 hp) into a non-turbo 112 gives it the same hp as the turbo'ed O-360 in the TC. I guess the TC is enough of an odd duck it couldn't ride along with the others on the STC.

Henning said:
Wait, this confuses me as well. http://www.aerodyme.com/Firewall_Forward/390_Super_Sheet.pdf

It says the 210 is a 35hp increase, wasn't the 112 a 200hp IO-360? For some reason I remember it having angle valve cylinders.:confused:
Click to expand...

Kiddo's Driver said:
It says "effective 35 HP increase". Maybe they mean the old engine didn't actually get 200 HP to the prop. Tuned exhaust, 10 extra HP for the base engine, Super duper HP wax ...
Click to expand...

^^ yeah, that. Again, going from memory of one of the Commander fly-ins (just checked- it was in 2006 yikes!), I think Jim called the 114's exhaust "a joke" and like one or two coffee cans when he was showing the Super Commander conversion. The induction was just as bad, so he increased the efficiencies of both ends quite a bit in the design. The STC also uses a more efficient prop. It all adds up. No doubt he was able to achieve the same thing on the 112.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
On a Trinidad.
If they did that...
Click to expand...

It can be done, you just have to pay for the installation STC, but then you can sell copies to other owners of the line as well. If they still build new ones you can also sell rights to them for a royalty. BRS would likely be helpful.
 
rpadula said:
^^ yeah, that. ...I think Jim called the 114's exhaust "a joke" and like one or two coffee cans when he was showing the Super Commander conversion. The induction was just as bad, so he increased the efficiencies of both ends quite a bit in the design.
Click to expand...

Let that puppy breathe!!!!
 
rpadula said:
Ah, yeah. I misread your original question. I was thinking along the lines of putting the IO-390 (210 hp) into a non-turbo 112 gives it the same hp as the turbo'ed O-360 in the TC. I guess the TC is enough of an odd duck it couldn't ride along with the others on the STC.





^^ yeah, that. Again, going from memory of one of the Commander fly-ins (just checked- it was in 2006 yikes!), I think Jim called the 114's exhaust "a joke" and like one or two coffee cans when he was showing the Super Commander conversion. The induction was just as bad, so he increased the efficiencies of both ends quite a bit in the design. The STC also uses a more efficient prop. It all adds up. No doubt he was able to achieve the same thing on the 112.
Click to expand...

Thing is, 4 cylinder planes only work out for me with a turbocharger to be able to keep their power at altitude, without a turbo, a Commander needs a six cylinder engine to make enough power at altitudes where you can take advantage of TAS benefits when traveling and make good speeds efficiently. That's what was great about my TN Travelair, above 12,500, I start walking away from 55 Barons with a pair of 4 cylinders, by FL180 I am seeing 180kts true on 17gph.

The 112TC was the same way, it was meant to go on long trips economically by getting up high and being able to stay there. It wasn't much of a get around town performer though, didn't climb like an Arrow or Mooney, or go quite as fast across the basin, but it would beat the M-20F on longer trips, especially long enough to require a fuel stop for the Mooney 2.5 hours before we needed it in the Commander, which got us in non stop.
 
Another thing to add regarding the Cirrus is it has arguably the best type club for piston owners. COPA is outstanding and their training programs worth the cost
 
Last edited:
I'm surprised a Cirrus training center would be using steam panel planes.
 
It's listed VFR just because it hasn't had the needed instrument stage checks. It has all the equipment, just not certified.
 
I spoke with a Cirrus owner last night at great length and went over the information with my dad this morning. We talked a lot about maintenance costs, insurance, required training and He really liked all of it. He was concerned about avionics but apparently you can buy extended warranties for the avionics that will cover them and even include some upgrades.

At some point during our conversation, his max price went up. I knew if that happened his love affair with Socata would be over.

I really thought he would have ended up coming back to the Trinidad but I think he is sold. It is a lot of automation for me but I think it is good for him. We are going to take a ride in one next week.

I've still got my eye on the Tiger. Currently arranging for a ride in one. Its perfect for my mission but I have never flown one.
 
docmirror said:
It's listed VFR just because it hasn't had the needed instrument stage checks. It has all the equipment, just not certified.
Click to expand...

Ah OK. That makes sense.
Thanks for that information.

I have seen a lot of planes that look IFR but are listed as VFR and I was thinking maybe something important was broken.

So could just be out of cert.

Thanks!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I spoke with a Cirrus owner last night at great length and went over the information with my dad this morning. We talked a lot about maintenance costs, insurance, required training and He really liked all of it. He was concerned about avionics but apparently you can buy extended warranties for the avionics that will cover them and even include some upgrades.

At some point during our conversation, his max price went up. I knew if that happened his love affair with Socata would be over.

I really thought he would have ended up coming back to the Trinidad but I think he is sold. It is a lot of automation for me but I think it is good for him. We are going to take a ride in one next week.

I've still got my eye on the Tiger. Currently arranging for a ride in one. Its perfect for my mission but I have never flown one.
Click to expand...

If you want a single engine plane to go places in, it is a tough deal to walk away from. It really baffles me the reluctance of other manufacturers to adopt a chute. It reminds me of car manufacturers refusing to install seat belts, and Volvo as the outlier who installed them in everything from early on.

Yes, it costs more to run than other single engine planes, however, it's less than a newer twin, and you are getting something in between.
 
Last edited:
SixPapaCharlie said:
hmmmmmm

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/2001/Cirrus/SR22/2044056.html


Curious why it had a overhaul at 1043 hours and is listed as VFR
Click to expand...

I betcha it had a prop strike. Notice the prop times are N/A. This might be the oldest SR-22 out there. Serial number 3. Doesn't the chute need repacking every ten years, or something like that? I heard it costs $10,000 to have that done. You already know this, but on one this old, better check all the ADs.

Tell your dad that all the cool kids are buying Commanders!:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top